Army design discussion

[Gitzdee]

Do u think GW is blurring the lines too much with the themes of the armies? Or armies stepping on each others design space too much? Are some armies losing their identity?

Kruleboyz being a 2nd hunting Orruks Subfaction next to Bonesplitterz. Ogors and Manticores in CoS. Dragons in SCE. KO getting airships like Grotbag Scuttlers. Gitmob part of Gloomspite is also a weird choice.

Please discuss, i would like to hear your opinions.

[KingBrodd]

I agree it id muddling. I know AOS is distancing itself from WHFB and I love that but some choices are seemingly out of left field.

[Twisted Firaun]

Definitely getting confusing….. At least with the Order and Destruction factions, death and chaos still seem to be their own things (Manticore excluded).

[The Lost Sigmarite]

15 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

Do u think GW is blurring the lines too much with the themes of the armies? Or armies stepping on each others design space too much? Are some armies losing their identity?

Kruleboyz being a 2nd hunting Orruks Subfaction next to Bonesplitterz. Ogors and Manticores in CoS. Dragons in SCE. KO getting airships like Grotbag Scuttlers. Gitmob part of Gloomspite is also a weird choice.

Please discuss, i would like to hear your opinions.

It's only one Kruleboyz unit. It doesn't make Bonesplitterz lore and gameplay obsolete. Ogors have always travelled around the world and been in human factions since WFB. You had Cathay ogres, Empire Ogres, pirate ogres... And they said that Cities manticore was specifically not corrupted by Chaos, unlike some of its species. About dragons ? Lots of WFB armies had a dragon, and no one complained back then that High Elves were losing their identity because Wood Elves had the forest dragon. 

I really don't get what the fuss is all about. And about the weird design choices, like Gitmobs with GSG, I feel it's either for commercial reasons, because they don't feel releasing a full line because it wouldn't sell, or gameplay reasons and not wanting to release too much battletomes and the balancing chaos that would create.

Edited July 2, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Gitzdee]

For the record, i am just asking an open question here.

[zilberfrid]

No, I don't think so.

[Still-young]

‘KO getting airships like Grotbag Scuttlers’ is a weird way of putting that when only one has an actual model line.

[Azamar]

1 hour ago, Still-young said:

‘KO getting airships like Grotbag Scuttlers’ is a weird way of putting that when only one has an actual model line.

It’s propaganda if you ask me. I suspect Gitzdee is actually three goblins in a trench coat. 

[Aussiemandias]

I find things to be okay as they are. Sure, we have monster hunter kruleboys, but their design aesthetic is all about being:

• Swamp orcs
• Sneaky stalking types versus typical orc blunt brutality
• Care more for being cunning than brutal
• Opportunistic Bullies

Compared to Bonesplittaz, whose aesthetic is more:

• Caveman orcs
• Shamanistic, superstitious, neanderthal types, leaning into the brutality via primitive/stone age motifs.
• Unga
• Bunga

Compared again to Ironjaws, who are:

• Black Orcs turned up to 11, yeah baby!
• Blunt Brutality turned up to 11
• In your face, heavily armed and armoured one-tactic orcs.

Kruleboys as monster hunters would be more poachers, trappers and overall Tarzan's Clayton types versus Bonesplittas, who would be all about that mammoth hunt for food, clothing, etc. They'd both get a kick out of it, but the former would find it enjoyable by inflicting cruelty because they like being cruel and enjoy seeing a target futilely try to escape, the bonesplittas would enjoy the hunt because the hunt is good fun and that's what orcs are about.

 

Age of Sigmar, to me, has good diversity among factions (not counting Fyreslayers). Order could use a little bit of expanding in regards to Idoneth and Fyreslayers, but all factions seem healthy and diverse due to how certain heroes unlock battleline. The only Alliance I can see that needs some lore expansion is Destruction, given that they're all variations of 'smash stuff'. Take Order- There's Sea, Wood, Blood, Shadow, and Light elves. Fire and Steampunk Dwarfs, Thunder Dudes in Stormcast,and Divine Light Lizards in Seraphon. Plenty of diverse, disctinct miniature lines. Chaos has a faction for each of the Big Four, then Undivided, Skaven, Beastmen and hopefully chaos dwarfs soon to make a full 'eight' stars of chaos.

Overlap will happen superficially, but I think that's good, as it shows that each faction has elements of a society and isn't just a trope. What if someone wants to play gladiators, but thinks Morathi isn't that hot?

 

[Gitzdee]

I think what bothers me a bit is the fact that some factions still hold a lot of relics from the whfb era. GW seems to be cutting or replacing them to get everything on the AoS standard which is fantasy on steroids. Skaven, BoC and Ogors will be refreshed for sure. I am not so sure about Spiderfang, Bonesplitterz, the other half of CoS, etc. What is on the chopping block? What is getting updated? Are these "soup" books just placeholders?

Cant help but feel like some armies are still looking for their identity in the mortal realms and i am getting a bit restless not knowing whats up with my favourite factions.

I do like more diverse units within armies. I think it helps building a cohesive world where Ogors and Chimeras are living among CoS. A setting where all forms of life are used by all armies to gain an advantage in combat.

Edit: That being said, i do think AoS has some of the best designs and armies in miniatures. Just a worried hobbyist here.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Gitzdee

[Hollow]

I think AoS is doing a pretty good job of curating a sizable range of diverse factions with their own distinct identities. If you take a look at the different Grand Alliances in terms of "Collections". Death is in a very strong position. 4 Pillar factions each with their own well-supported ranges (pending the FEC update). The spooky bois, the boney bois, the Vampire bros and the Ghoul guys make for a well-rounded Death Grand Faction. Apart from a few stragglers (such as the Graveguard in the Soulblight), post-FEC update the 4 Death factions will reach mature "Maintenance status". I wonder what we might see for death in the years to come? 

Grand Alliance Destruction on the other hand is in a bit more of a state. I'd say that The Gloomspite Gitz are in the strongest place thematically and design-wise. I do wish they would just bite the bullet and release a new Shootas/Stabbas kit. With a new plastic Madcap Shaman kit, some new Spider riders and a Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider, the range would be super strong. The Ogor Mawtribes need a full Seraphon/Cities level revamp. The Orruks need the scalpel. Savage Orruks/Morboys/Arrowboys, Savage Boar Boy/Maniaks, Maniak Weirdnob, Savage Big Boss, Wardokk and Wurrgog Prophet all need to go, I'd mourn their loss. (Put into the studio for a repaint and rebase to squares to be a part of the Orcs and Goblins ToW Army, bring back the big stabba!) Orruks Kruelboys/Ironjaws expanded with at least a couple of squad-based kits each. Finally, the SoB needs another giant kit. A lot of work to do across the Destruction GA. 

GA Chaos is.... well, Chaotic. I'd say all the Gods are pretty well-represented and STD have a copious amount of Warcry warbands for variation. We all know it's the BoC and Skaven that need the love. It's just a matter of waiting and seeing what/if anything happens. I love both and want to collect more of each. 

GA Order is certainly stronger than Chaos. I'm excited to see what happens with Sylvaneth and how they might be expanded thematically to include the Kurnothi. Sylvanth are a faction I would love to collect but I would like a break from all tree-folk, all the time. Stormcast are in a strong position and well catered for which is to be expected (although they are running the risk of becoming bloated and over-represented like Marines have in 40k)I hope they are bold and cut the Liberators, Decimators, Judicators, Retibuters/Protectors and update them with Thunderstrike armour proportions. Seraphon are super solid (although how many years do you think Temple Guard will languish as part of the collection?) Cities is on the horizon and I suppose we will see how GW intends to cater for the rest. (I've made my Duardin thoughts known elsewhere lol!) 

Overall I am very positive and optimistic about AoS where it is in terms of "maturity". There have been a few missteps along the way IMO (endless spell models) and some factions have taken or are taking waaaay too long to see some much-needed TLC. However, the future looks bright for AoS and I think 4th Edition is where we will really see it cement itself. I just hope Gw focuses on the fundamentals when it comes to models. (Like infantry, cavalry, elite-infantry kits as opposed to single heroes or mega-monsters) 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Hollow

[woolf]

I think AoS is doing a great job keeping each army with its unique esthetic and feel (in particular given how many factions there are in the game), sure there are some overlaps but that is perhaps not so strange, e.g. with the KB warband; to me it makes sense that KB has some specialists hunting monsters as monsters have been very top of mind this season and they do rely quite a bit on their bestiary, it doesn't mean they are trying to be Bonesplitterz who are building their whole society around hunting beasts. Probably this feels bad mainly since the Bonesplitter range is old and feels like its hanging on by a thread...

To me though it would actually make sense to have Warclans as only two sides; IJ = Gork and KB = Mork, that would leave Bonesplitterz outside which is ofc a terrible outcome for ppl who love them and have collected them for a long time, perhaps there could be a line refresh and then move them in under either the Gork or Mork side and leave whats left to the old world... At least I think a better version of the complete Orruk Warclans book could be written on the principle of going back to GorkaMorka as the guiding star..

[Aussiemandias]

14 hours ago, Hollow said:

I think AoS is doing a pretty good job of curating a sizable range of diverse factions with their own distinct identities. If you take a look at the different Grand Alliances in terms of "Collections". Death is in a very strong position. 4 Pillar factions each with their own well-supported ranges (pending the FEC update). The spooky bois, the boney bois, the Vampire bros and the Ghoul guys make for a well-rounded Death Grand Faction. Apart from a few stragglers (such as the Graveguard in the Soulblight), post-FEC update the 4 Death factions will reach mature "Maintenance status". I wonder what we might see for death in the years to come? 

Grand Alliance Destruction on the other hand is in a bit more of a state. I'd say that The Gloomspite Gitz are in the strongest place thematically and design-wise. I do wish they would just bite the bullet and release a new Shootas/Stabbas kit. With a new plastic Madcap Shaman kit, some new Spider riders and a Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider, the range would be super strong. The Ogor Mawtribes need a full Seraphon/Cities level revamp. The Orruks need the scalpel. Savage Orruks/Morboys/Arrowboys, Savage Boar Boy/Maniaks, Maniak Weirdnob, Savage Big Boss, Wardokk and Wurrgog Prophet all need to go, I'd mourn their loss. (Put into the studio for a repaint and rebase to squares to be a part of the Orcs and Goblins ToW Army, bring back the big stabba!) Orruks Kruelboys/Ironjaws expanded with at least a couple of squad-based kits each. Finally, the SoB needs another giant kit. A lot of work to do across the Destruction GA.

This. Death and Destruction need more fleshing out than Chaos and Order. Design-space wise you have a few undead tropes left largely untouched- Frankenstein's Monster type patch-jobs, among others. Add in some variation on skeletons- undead dwarfs, elves, orruks? Bring back Krell, give him a mission to kill the Best and Brightest the Mortal Realms have to offer/assemble the largest armies of undead.

For destruction, Troggoths could be broken off from Gloomspite to allow them to a) come into their own and b) free up space in Gloomspite for more goblin variations. If Orruk warclans are a trifecta of three orc playstyles, Gloomspite can certainly break off Troggs for Night Gobbos, Forest Gobbos and Plains Gobbos.

Destruction also needs a war machine faction. Catapults, trebuchets, siege towers and ballistae! Why run up close when you can have a right laugh throwing bits of rock/previous town/etc at a city to tear it down that way.

Where's the Destruction faction that just want to tear it all down first, before rebuilding (or even letting the realms decide what happens).  Fimir could fill this role- Chaos spurned them for the Great Game and better followers? Well you can't win the Great Game if the Fimir flip the board and eat half the game pieces. Mmm, crunchy. Hell, even a rogue stormcast/azyrite faction- souls too broken/reforged too many times/too wrapped up in bitterness that have escaped and now only want to cleanse the realms of everything, the line between friend and foe irreparably blurred.
 

All in all, there's plenty of unplumbed depths for the design team to explore for future factions, miniatures and themes.

[sandlemad]

The manticore works particularly well for CoS. Still sort of regal and heraldic, being a lion, but also more ‘alien’ and weird than a griffin with its big scorpion tail. It’s appropriate for AoS (as well more specifically that Aqshyian desert feel you get from Hammerhal sometimes)  and marks a shift from WHFB’s Empire look.

It works well and clearly has a lot of thought put into it. I’d much rather this approach than having it set in stone as a chaos beast, particularly when it already had an older heritage across multiple factions, as a Dark Elf beast.

RE: CoS ogres, it’s been said already but that has a significant heritage as ogres used to feature as part of the WHFB Empire, Orcs/Goblins and Chaos ranges. They’re wanderers and mercenaries so it’s good to see them appear around the place.

[Ganigumo]

I don't think its a problem, but army identities do end up getting muddled a bit. The biggest example is actually Gitz vs Skaven (Chaotic backstabbing gremlins who abuse substances and have a never ending supply of replacements which makes life cheap, they both even live underground). I think in a game focused on models its the differences in aesthetic that matters more though, and they do a great job of making all the armies very distinct from one another.

On 7/3/2023 at 12:24 AM, Aussiemandias said:

Destruction also needs a war machine faction. Catapults, trebuchets, siege towers and ballistae! Why run up close when you can have a right laugh throwing bits of rock/previous town/etc at a city to tear it down that way.

This is gitmob, which I desperately hope comes back separate from gitz.

 

 

On 7/3/2023 at 12:24 AM, Aussiemandias said:

Where's the Destruction faction that just want to tear it all down first, before rebuilding (or even letting the realms decide what happens).  Fimir could fill this role- Chaos spurned them for the Great Game and better followers? Well you can't win the Great Game if the Fimir flip the board and eat half the game pieces. Mmm, crunchy. Hell, even a rogue stormcast/azyrite faction- souls too broken/reforged too many times/too wrapped up in bitterness that have escaped and now only want to cleanse the realms of everything, the line between friend and foe irreparably blurred.

All the destruction factions just want to smash everything else, its the narrative thread that binds the grand alliance together, they just go about it differently. Grots want to steal, Orruks want to smash, gargants want to crush, and ogors want to e.at.

The idea of using the broken stormcast souls is something GW should explore. They've lost too much of themselves to be useful in anything but battle, and are wild and unpredictable berserkers that they send out to the most desperate battles. Maybe they could even start putting the souls inside things like golems or tanks to "automate" them dreadnaught style.