Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[JerekKruger]

Do we think Keepers are paying for the sin of being summonable? They seem under tuned (albeit not as much as in the previous book), and every time I think about them I think "well I guess I could eventually summon one, but I won't include it in my starting line up".

It's a shame, as they are honestly one of the best minis GW have produced (in my opinion at least). Definitely my favourite greater daemon (although GUOs come close). I'd love to field one or even two in the starting line up.

[Magnus The Blue]

12 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

Do we think Keepers are paying for the sin of being summonable? They seem under tuned (albeit not as much as in the previous book), and every time I think about them I think "well I guess I could eventually summon one, but I won't include it in my starting line up".

It's a shame, as they are honestly one of the best minis GW have produced (in my opinion at least). Definitely my favourite greater daemon (although GUOs come close). I'd love to field one or even two in the starting line up.

I think your paying allot for the flexibility, utility and especially the Excess of Violence, which is game changing with Euphoric Killers as it can comfortably produce 10+ depravity (as well as the extra damage) against the right unit.  400 points for a 2 casts, monster hero with 16 wounds 4+/5++ save is perfectly reasonable. The damage output is a bit lack lustre and warscroll spell is still awful but the utility you get is amazing. Much cheaper and I think they'd be overpowered.  I think the trick is to build an army that gets lots of value of the keeper without being too dependant on it surviving.  

[Magnus The Blue]

Anyone else thinking Syll-Esske is actually a really solid pick now. Nice spell, solid damage output, reasonably fast with run and charge and an amazing (if hard to maintain) wide area buff.  Also a Warmaster so you get a backup general. Feels like a steal at 215 points. 

[Wordy9th]

Syll’esske has a great warscroll, though I need to try a practice game to see how workable his amazing buff is in practice. I do worry for his health at 9 wounds with no ward, but perhaps for his cost that is fine.

As for the Keeper, the aforementioned utility is great, but it can output some serious damage with buffs and net you a very mobile killer who can also hard farm euphoric killers. I had one game with him and he really pulled his weight (note, it was against a karadron army that double turned me, tho he elected to take out easier targets than the mystic shielded finest houred5+ ward guy.

[ibel]

1 hour ago, JerekKruger said:

Do we think Keepers are paying for the sin of being summonable? They seem under tuned (albeit not as much as in the previous book), and every time I think about them I think "well I guess I could eventually summon one, but I won't include it in my starting line up".

My Keeper List what be that:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (400)*
- General
- Aegis
- Command Trait: Best of the Best
- Spell: Flamming Weapon
Keeper of Secrets (400)
- Aegis
- Spell: Lash of Slaanesh
The Contorted Epitome (190)*
- Artefact: Icon of Infinite Excess
- Lore of Slaanesh: Pavane of Slaanesh

Battleline
20 x Daemonettes (250)*
- Reinforced x 1
11 x Blissbarb Archers (150)*
11 x Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Units
5 x Blissbard Seekers (200)*
3 x Fiends (200)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Mesmerising Mirror (60)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 109
Drops: 2

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by ibel

[KrispyXIV]

1 hour ago, JerekKruger said:

Do we think Keepers are paying for the sin of being summonable? They seem under tuned (albeit not as much as in the previous book), and every time I think about them I think "well I guess I could eventually summon one, but I won't include it in my starting line up".

It's a shame, as they are honestly one of the best minis GW have produced (in my opinion at least). Definitely my favourite greater daemon (although GUOs come close). I'd love to field one or even two in the starting line up.

I think like several newer hero-monsters, it's been designed to be as unfriendly to spamming as possible (some other examples are more effective than others).  

The Keepers combat abilities only really shine if you invest command traits/artefacts into it, it's DP generation ability and fight twice only apply once, etc.

For comparison, look at how both the MBMK and GUO have a big portion of their damage locked into a Monstrous Rampage - the first one of these big stompy monster heroes you buy is always going to be the most effective.  The Keeper is a bit more restricted with multiple abilities that are limited and command trait dependency, but its also the newest example.

Plus, as others have noted, it's a very "loaded" warscroll.  It now has a proper defensive Stateline (4+, 5++, 16W, access to -1 to hit), 2 cast wizard, lots of abilities... it really can't be that cheap.  Generally, for everything it compares badly to in one area it has advantages in others. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by KrispyXIV

[MotherGoose]

2 hours ago, JerekKruger said:

Do we think Keepers are paying for the sin of being summonable? They seem under tuned (albeit not as much as in the previous book), and every time I think about them I think "well I guess I could eventually summon one, but I won't include it in my starting line up".

It's a shame, as they are honestly one of the best minis GW have produced (in my opinion at least). Definitely my favourite greater daemon (although GUOs come close). I'd love to field one or even two in the starting line up.

They're only 70 more than a thirster and are better in combat on average, 2x caster and much harder to kill, I think they're alright ATM.

[Coril]

3 hours ago, MotherGoose said:

They're only 70 more than a thirster and are better in combat on average, 2x caster and much harder to kill, I think they're alright ATM.

I'm not sure about being much better in combat than a bloodthirster. A KoS can be surprisingly-pillow fisted, especially when it isn't buffed or taking certain command traits/artefacts.

There are upsides to the Keeper such as those you've mentioned, but raw combat capabilities aren't really among them (somewhat surprisingly imo)

[MotherGoose]

13 minutes ago, Coril said:

I'm not sure about being much better in combat than a bloodthirster. A KoS can be surprisingly-pillow fisted, especially when it isn't buffed or taking certain command traits/artefacts.

There are upsides to the Keeper such as those you've mentioned, but raw combat capabilities aren't really among them (somewhat surprisingly imo)

I'm talking 'on average' which obviously can swing either way, but last time I checked they are better on average than the insensate rage thirster in combat. If that's still the case, I'd happily pay 70 points extra for being a 2x caster and 5+ ward.

Edit - no longer the case, the thirster does around 2 extra damage on average to 4+ save, however once slaanesh have the depravity for 6s doing mortals in addition I believe it is better still. Either way, I think they're great.

Edited March 29, 2023 by MotherGoose

[Unit1126PLL]

Ok, I am ok with the Keeper then. No fancy survivability tricks to learn, but also just... fine.

Onto the next question: the value of a Slaanesh Warshrine from Slaves to Darkness. Worth it for the 3d6 Charge prayer? Worth it for the Healing or Curse prayers? Inquiring minds want to know!

[KrispyXIV]

9 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

I'm talking 'on average' which obviously can swing either way, but last time I checked they are better on average than the insensate rage thirster in combat. If that's still the case, I'd happily pay 70 points extra for being a 2x caster and 5+ ward.

Edit - no longer the case, the thirster does around 2 extra damage on average to 4+ save, however once slaanesh have the depravity for 6s doing mortals in addition I believe it is better still. Either way, I think they're great.

Yeah, like many of our warscrolls they're questionable expensive base, pretty solid at 12 depravity, and darned good once you get to 24.  

Keepers may have the same offensive profile as previous, but their off scroll improvements are tremendous. 

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

Onto the next question: the value of a Slaanesh Warshrine from Slaves to Darkness. Worth it for the 3d6 Charge prayer? Worth it for the Healing or Curse prayers? Inquiring minds want to know!

What are you wanting to charge with that doesn't have solid in built delivery from base movement plus run and charge already that needs 3d6 charge in addition?  

It's a solid benefit... if it's a benefit and not redundant.  

I feel like most of our slow stuff is things like Painbringers, is stuff that's OK taking a charge or we want taking a charge.  

Most of our stuff that strikes first can already get there if it wants.  

Curse is almost* entirely redundant with 24 depravity, leaving just Healing... which is valuable, though I'm not sure it's worth the cost. 

[Unit1126PLL]

3 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

What are you wanting to charge with that doesn't have solid in built delivery from base movement plus run and charge already that needs 3d6 charge in addition?  

It's a solid benefit... if it's a benefit and not redundant.  

I feel like most of our slow stuff is things like Painbringers, is stuff that's OK taking a charge or we want taking a charge.  

Most of our stuff that strikes first can already get there if it wants.  

Curse is almost* entirely redundant with 24 depravity, leaving just Healing... which is valuable, though I'm not sure it's worth the cost. 

I feel like it opens up more options. Things like Daemonettes and Friends and the Chariots and the Slickblades either become or gain more reliable first turn charge options to gain depravity. Just as an example.

[KrispyXIV]

20 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

I feel like it opens up more options. Things like Daemonettes and Friends and the Chariots and the Slickblades either become or gain more reliable first turn charge options to gain depravity. Just as an example.

Personal thoughts are that Daemonettes especially want to be second line hitters, as their damage pre 24 depravity is meh (imo).  

Slickblades 20" with a maxed run (cheap in pretenders) which should be plenty for first turn charges, and if you really want infinite charge range I think the Masque is likely far better as an investment than the shrine. (Misread seeker Chariots, so edited)

I'm not saying 3d6 charge isn't valuable - it absolutely is - but I do think other in faction options may be good enough as is?   Lessening the value I'd be willing to pay in points for it. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by KrispyXIV

[Enoby]

Current Sylvaneth game is going well

My list is:

 - Army Faction: Hedonites of Slaanesh

  - Army Type: Invaders

LEADERS

Keeper of Secrets (400)

  - General

  - Command Traits: Best of the Best

  - Shining Aegis

  - Artefacts of Power: Icon of Infinite Excess

  - Spells: Flaming Weapon

Contorted Epitome (190)

  - General

  - Spells: Lash of Slaanesh

Glutos Orscollion (480)*

  - General

  - Spells: Pavane of Slaanesh

Lord of Pain (135)*

  - General

The Masque (140)*

  - General

BATTLELINE

Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Myrmidesh Painbringers (145)*

Symbaresh Twinsouls (140)*

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS

1 x Mesmerising Mirror (60)

CORE BATTALIONS

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: 1990/2000

---

Turn 1

They gave me first turn, and I charged their first unit of revenants with the Masque, who killed 4 of them (for 8 depravity) and then they teleported away, and I shot at the little tree men with scythes (whose name escapes me) with the Blissbarbs to deal 5 wounds (with the help of a nearby LoP), but I offered a 6 to keep one alive and they took it. I rolled a 4 on the DP for a total of 12 depravity. I also shot at the unit of dryads who were outside of the forest at the time, and killed 9 of them when battleshock is taken into account.

As for spells, I managed to cast a single mystic shield on the KoS from the Epitome. 

I tried to make a charge with the KoS into Drycha, but couldn't stretch the 10", so I waited in front of her and the tree lord. 

On their turn, they had similar casting luck as me and only managed to heal one of the little tree men with scythes by one. Those lil tree men marched up to challenge one of my units of blissbarbs, and Drycha and the treelord moved to kill the KoS, who had decided it was their time to shine and had used finest hour. Drycha and the Lady of Vines shot at the KoS, and the Treelord Ancient shot at the Masque, but the ward saves were very lucky for both of them and they didn't take anything from shooting. Drycha did take 3 mortal wounds from a rejected temptation offer for one of her shots though. The Treelord Ancient killed six Blissbarb Archers with his shooting. 

Drycha and the treelord charged into the KoS. The Treelord made them strike last and Drycha did a monstrous duel. I tried to roar the treelord, but it failed. The little tree men with scythes charged into my five remaining blissbarbs, who unleashed hell and killed one. They made short work of the other Archers and teleported away to cover. 

The same could not be said for the Treelord and Drycha. Drycha refused the KoS initial temptation and took an additional 2 mortal wounds, leaving her on just five. In display of very poor luck from Sylvaneth and good luck from me, the treelord and Drycha only did six damage to the KoS, who struck back with the Icon active. Despite very poor hitting and wounding, the KoS did 5 MWs in a last did attempt from the claw, which finished Drycha. 

The current battlefield:

 

[Unit1126PLL]

8 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Personal thoughts are that Daemonettes especially want to be second line hitters, as their damage pre 24 depravity is meh (imo).  

Seeker Chariots move 18", slickblades 20" with a maxed run (cheap in pretenders) which should be plenty for first turn charges, and if you really want infinite charge range I think the Masque is likely far better as an investment than the shrine.

I'm not saying 3d6 charge isn't valuable - it absolutely is - but I do think other in faction options may be good enough as is?   Lessening the value I'd be willing to pay in points for it. 

Seeker chariots can't run and charge, so really it's Slickblades and regular Seekers and...  that's it. 

And I think there is value in getting more than one unit type into combat Turn 1 to generate depravity and pressure the opponent. The masque generates 18 depravity max. 20 Daemonettes into Zombies generate something like 19 depravity *on average*, while Slickblades do better into, say, Freeguild Guard.

And having all 3 in gives you many options to choose for euphoric killers, as well as just making the opponent have a really bad day instead of a kind of bad one. 

 

Don't forget more enemy units targeted in a single phase is more mortal wounds (or more depravity) from temptation dice, so there's value in just making the enemy roll more saves than they otherwise would.

[Coril]

26 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

I'm talking 'on average' which obviously can swing either way, but last time I checked they are better on average than the insensate rage thirster in combat. If that's still the case, I'd happily pay 70 points extra for being a 2x caster and 5+ ward.

Edit - no longer the case, the thirster does around 2 extra damage on average to 4+ save, however once slaanesh have the depravity for 6s doing mortals in addition I believe it is better still. Either way, I think they're great.

I plugged the numbers in (with a KoS equipped with the hand or knife for extra damage) and it turns out that Bloodthirsters do around about 1.4 to 1.5 times the damage of on unbuffed Keeper. Even with the depravity buff, Keeper's still get outclassed, which makes sense, I think. Bloodthirsters seem to have little value beyond just hitting things hard, whereas Keepers have plenty of other utility to bring to the table. 

What's interesting is that with Strength of Godhood the Keeper actually keeps up with the Bloodthirsters and even outclasses them against better saves, and that's without accounting for depravity bonuses.

Lots to like with the new Keepers

24 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

Onto the next question: the value of a Slaanesh Warshrine from Slaves to Darkness. Worth it for the 3d6 Charge prayer? Worth it for the Healing or Curse prayers? Inquiring minds want to know!

An interesting use of the 3d6 prayer is with the Exalted Chariot or a general with the Speed-chaser command trait. Both get mortal wounds based on your charge rolls, so the extra D6 not only lets you make charges you potentially couldn't otherwise, but also increases your impact hit output. 

Of course, you could always use the Paths of the Dark Prince spell for that, but something to consider 

[KrispyXIV]

3 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

Seeker chariots can't run and charge, so really it's Slickblades and regular Seekers and...  that's it. 

Whoops, my mistake there. 

[MotherGoose]

7 minutes ago, Coril said:

I plugged the numbers in (with a KoS equipped with the hand or knife for extra damage) and it turns out that Bloodthirsters do around about 1.4 to 1.5 times the damage of on unbuffed Keeper. Even with the depravity buff, Keeper's still get outclassed, which makes sense, I think. Bloodthirsters seem to have little value beyond just hitting things hard, whereas Keepers have plenty of other utility to bring to the table. 

What's interesting is that with Strength of Godhood the Keeper actually keeps up with the Bloodthirsters and even outclasses them against better saves, and that's without accounting for depravity bonuses.

Lots to like with the new Keepers

An interesting use of the 3d6 prayer is with the Exalted Chariot or a general with the Speed-chaser command trait. Both get mortal wounds based on your charge rolls, so the extra D6 not only lets you make charges you potentially couldn't otherwise, but also increases your impact hit output. 

Of course, you could always use the Paths of the Dark Prince spell for that, but something to consider 

How did you get such high numbers for the insensate rage? Haven't checked the others but I'm returning 5.7 average damage vs 4+ save and much lower on all the others too than you got there. 6.9 including the mortal wound chance.

I'm also getting different Keeper ones... 5.04 vs 4+ save not including the mortals from the knife which average is 3.5 and then d3 temptation average is 2 so 10.54 including them + mortals on 6s.

Admittedly I'm just putting it all in statshammer and letting the programme do the maths.

Edited March 29, 2023 by MotherGoose

[KrispyXIV]

3 minutes ago, Coril said:

I plugged the numbers in (with a KoS equipped with the hand or knife for extra damage) and it turns out that Bloodthirsters do around about 1.4 to 1.5 times the damage of on unbuffed Keeper. Even with the depravity buff, Keeper's still get outclassed, which makes sense, I think. Bloodthirsters seem to have little value beyond just hitting things hard, whereas Keepers have plenty of other utility to bring to the table. 

Did you account for the knifes mortal wound output, or potential for Dark Temptations mortals?

Everyone, myself included, is focused on building a tanky keeper - but the single target output of a knife keeper seems compelling too imo. 

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Did you account for the knifes mortal wound output, or potential for Dark Temptations mortals?

Everyone, myself included, is focused on building a tanky keeper - but the single target output of a knife keeper seems compelling too imo. 

The Knife Seems good, but I'm a bit concerned that it's only on a single model - so it could well amount to nothing. 

Edit: Ignore this - I can't read, apparently! It does indeed work on the unit. 

[MotherGoose]

Just now, Enoby said:

The Knife Seems good, but I'm a bit concerned that it's only on a single model - so it could well amount to nothing. 

You pick a model but then the unit suffers the wounds, its pretty decent but I'd imagine 5+ ward will be more important most times.

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Enoby said:

The Knife Seems good, but I'm a bit concerned that it's only on a single model - so it could well amount to nothing. 

Yeah, it's only good on multi wound models with enough wounds for one of them to survive with a wound on it.  Meaning characters, monsters, heavy cav, etc. are the best targets for it.  

But its significantly more open than single models, at least. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by KrispyXIV

[Coril]

4 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

How did you get such high numbers for the insensate rage? Haven't checked the others but I'm returning 5.7 average damage vs 4+ save and much lower on all the others too than you got there.

This is the profile I'm running for the insensate thirster. I haven't read through Khorne's full book yet, but this was what was on its scroll so I've included it.

In the same vein I've included the Keepers ability to get mortal wounds on 6s to wound in the calculations as well

2 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Did you account for the knifes mortal wound output, or potential for Dark Temptations mortals?

Everyone, myself included, is focused on building a tanky keeper - but the single target output of a knife keeper seems compelling too imo. 

I haven't included anything like the Dark Temptations mortals (I count these as some of the many tricks the KoS have at their disposal as opposed to raw combat stats) 

I could probably throw together a comparison of the different Keeper loadouts such as knife and whip at some point, though

[Unit1126PLL]

I would definitely be interested in a discussion on knife vs whip vs hand vs shield.

It seems like everyone is taking shield as the default, so I am curious if anyone would rather take any of the others (e.g. a depravity farm list that hopes to get the 5++ by/sometime in BR2).