Spiky Norman Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 32 minutes ago, Arkiham said: Ignore the pdf off the website. they've not been updated since release. I belive the chaos lord still summons units on a 4+ from that. There's no point using the old warscrolls as tournaments won't allow it, if you want to use it with your mate, sure, go for it. but no one else will let you. GW have been updating the PDFs on the GW site faster than the app. The Chaos Sorcerer Lord does not have any summon-related rules, and the Lord of Chaos is not a wizard, so I don't see anything with summoning units on 4+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 They must have updated it then make, as for quite a while it was different to the grand alliance book and app. but yeah used to be outdated. Either way gw recommends you use the most up to date warscroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 4 minutes ago, Arkiham said: Either way gw recommends you use the most up to date warscroll. They do, but it would be nice if there was some indication on the website of which of the two scrolls is more up-to-date. As it stands, new players will have to just ask existing veterans and take our word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 4 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said: If it was easier to cast, or didn't take up a spell slot on failure, I might agree. As it stands, you have to pay 100pts, then attempt to cast on a 7+, if you fail that's one (normally your only) casting attempt used up. Frankly, I'm not sure many players would bother to risk that even if it was free. Bear in mind it also makes them immobile, and allows them to be seen over the same LoS blocking terrain. Do you similarly avoid summoning units at all due to the risk of failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 31 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: Do you similarly avoid summoning units at all due to the risk of failure? How many armies used summoning at warlords? genuine question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 1 hour ago, daedalus81 said: Do you similarly avoid summoning units at all due to the risk of failure? No, but then I mostly wouldn't bother with summoning at all unless I was running a summoning-based army. I would only consider doing that because most of the stuff I'd summon turns up on a 5+, that's a lot more reliable than 7+, and it can also be boosted by Morghasts. Even then, if I was attempting to run a summoning-based army, I'd likely include the Sword of Unholy Power, and multiple wizards so that if one summoning attempt failed, I could summon a different unit to fill a similar role (most of the time). There isn't really anything that can fill a similar role to the vortex. It might be worth it if you had Nagash levels of casting bonuses and/or additional spells, but of course he's a monster and can't cast it (and probably wouldn't want to anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 7 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said: They do, but it would be nice if there was some indication on the website of which of the two scrolls is more up-to-date. As it stands, new players will have to just ask existing veterans and take our word for it. We are definitely in a better place than having to buy a new battletome compendium completedly unrelated to your army just to get the rules for a single piece of terrain. But yeah. A small version number wouldn't go amiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 6 hours ago, Arkiham said: How many armies used summoning at warlords? genuine question. Well we know @Ben summoned a Balewind Vortex ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 Could it be argued that the Balewind still costs nothing according to the faq. Obvious over sight is obvious. I guess we can expect a faq update soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 On 11/13/2016 at 4:35 AM, Spiky Norman said: GW have been updating the PDFs on the GW site faster than the app. The Chaos Sorcerer Lord does not have any summon-related rules, and the Lord of Chaos is not a wizard, so I don't see anything with summoning units on 4+. The individual unit pdfs on their store pages are getting updated, but there is the "Scenery Compendium" pdf in the Legacy section (where you find the Tomb King and Brettonian rules) that hasn't been updated, and I think that's what he was referencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Is the argument really now that the increase in casting cost from 5 to 7, even without a points cost, would be enough to go from "every army must take this" to "no army will take this"? In my mind, it has gone from "every army must take this" to "you need to think about whether or not to take this". It's an easier choice to make if you're already planning to do any summoning - you just throw it in your model box along with the rest of the potential summoning pool - you might not ever use it, but it's there if the scenario to use it comes up. It's a tougher choice if you're not planning any other summoning - those 100 reserved points can only be used for this one thing, so you're counting on getting it out every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Taking it from a 5 to a 7, by itself, would still leave every army taking it, but maybe not actually using it as often. There would still be no downside to having the model in your case. Making it 100 points, without changing the casting value, would have taken it from "must take" to "think about it, probably not worth it but might be with the right build", imo. 100 points and the 5->7 change, makes it "only with a very specific, summon-heavy build, and probably not even then", again, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 The changes alone from the old to new balewind changed a lot of views towards it. you fail you get nothing, uses a spell slot. a lot of people wouldn't attempt that. Stopped a lot of wizards casting it as well by removing monsters from it. 100 points is too much, 60 odd I'd be happier with as it can fill the gaps often left when building armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I think it'll still see use in Wizard heavy armies. Unless every model you have has a super important unique spell, you often will have a Wizard sitting around with no spell to cast. Take Tzeentch Daemons for example - you'll have a few Heroes on top of the Pink Horror Battlelines spitting off spells. Chances are, one of those Heralds or Sorcerers or whatever is going to end up with no good target and Bolt/Shield already casted elsewhere. An army with one Wizard will often end up not wanting to cast it, but some armies are magic-heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 59 minutes ago, Arkiham said: The changes alone from the old to new balewind changed a lot of views towards it. you fail you get nothing, uses a spell slot. a lot of people wouldn't attempt that. Yeah, but so long as it was free, even if you didn't plan on attempting it, it was worth having it just in case. Even on a 7+ to cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Yeah, on the balance, I think it's still an auto-include for any list that is already planning for 100 or more points of summoning (unless all you have is ineligible wizards, of course). It's a much harder sell for lists that are otherwise not doing any summoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said: Yeah, but so long as it was free, even if you didn't plan on attempting it, it was worth having it just in case. Even on a 7+ to cast. would you though? you attempt to cast it and fail you lose your spell, even turn 1 there is merit in the mystic shield spell, as a lot of armies can charge turn 2. even when it was free and easier to cast alot of people didnt as it wasnt needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, Arkiham said: would you though? you attempt to cast it and fail you lose your spell, even turn 1 there is merit in the mystic shield spell, as a lot of armies can charge turn 2. even when it was free and easier to cast alot of people didnt as it wasnt needed Yes, but against the remote possibility of desperately needing to cast a 36" range arcane bolt at a crucial moment of the game, what did you lose by having the model in your case? Money, yes, but no in-game advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I Used the balewind vortex in a game on saturday using it's current rules. As mentioned i have an all summoning list well It has 500-600 points for summoning which is 100 zombies. I got the vortex off first turn to boost up and nerf a unit of khorne skullcrushers (mortal jugger unit, whatever it's caleld) With my vampire lord spell -1 to all attack profiles all models. Was a big unit of 6 crushers. It made them do nothing to my zombies that went on to crush the crushers. I jumped off the vortex to re cast it with my necro mancer that was down to recast it with my VLoA whose technically not a monster. he failed with +1 to cast, Which sucked becuase i wanted that 36" range to double the movement of a unit of zombies on the opposite flank. hurt bad, but not the end of the world. 3rd turn had a necromancer hop on just to make sure i got the VHD off. I ahve 2 necromancers in my list, and my though was. If this guy fails to get on the vortex with his already +2 to cast than i'd have the other +2 to cast necromancer just try it normally. He succeeded in getting the vortex off and then got the dance off. which ended the game pretty much right there. I think as mentioned it's another strong tool in the summoning army wheel house, but it's alot to think about for other armies. If i had a wizard as powerful as something like a arch-warlock i'd take the vortex for them every time. A battlemage with chain lightning might be worth it too in a target which environment. The best part was casting a spell turn 1 that normal would be a pretty much ignored hero phase. It changed my turn from "i'll just run up the board and get ready to be charged" Too "lets see if i can also get a movement speed and VHD off as well and blow this jugger unit off the map. Edi;t It has a pretty permanent spot in my list... which also kinda sucks because i'm low on model space with my massive 2k point army. With ackward mortis engines and VLoA (custom) models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said: Yes, but against the remote possibility of desperately needing to cast a 36" range arcane bolt at a crucial moment of the game, what did you lose by having the model in your case? Money, yes, but no in-game advantage. to fail 41% of the time ( unless you have bonuses to cast ) and then attempt to cast the spell which fails 50% of the time ( unless you have mroe than +1 to cast ) and then to do d3 wounds. lets say for ease they only have 1 wound left. thats like a 20.5% chance of success? i think? without any opposition to it. sounds fair to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, Arkiham said: to fail 41% of the time ( unless you have bonuses to cast ) and then attempt to cast the spell which fails 50% of the time ( unless you have mroe than +1 to cast ) and then to do d3 wounds. lets say for ease they only have 1 wound left. thats like a 20.5% chance of success? i think? without any opposition to it. sounds fair to me. what??? do you not math/?? 7+ is 58.33% a 5+ is 83.33% (which a it would be with the +1 to cast). please don't do low ball pretend math. If your gonna do the math just get the numbers it's a 5 second google search. In which case it's 41% which is way better than 0. 2d6 probability for future reference http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm#.WCo7BPkrKUk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Just now, Arkiham said: to fail 41% of the time ( unless you have bonuses to cast ) and then attempt to cast the spell which fails 50% of the time ( unless you have mroe than +1 to cast ) and then to do d3 wounds. lets say for ease they only have 1 wound left. thats like a 20.5% chance of success? i think? without any opposition to it. sounds fair to me. But just having the model in your case carried no drawback. Choosing to use it carried a risk, but you could decide in the middle of the game whether that was worth it, based on the situation. When packing models into your case, it was always worth including the balewind because it gave you an extra option, that was sometimes worth it, sometimes not, but just having the option cost nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 Just now, mmimzie said: what??? do you not math/?? 7+ is 58.33% a 5+ is 83.33% (which a it would be with the +1 to cast). please don't do low ball pretend math. If your gonna do the math just get the numbers it's a 5 second google search. In which case it's 41% which is way better than 0. sorry it was off the top of my head, in my head lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 It's not like we have to worry about a miscast or the balewind taking up a spell slot. You can still cast everything else that you were going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 1 minute ago, daedalus81 said: It's not like we have to worry about a miscast or the balewind taking up a spell slot. You can still cast everything else that you were going to do. Nah i think you gotta cast the spell to beable to remove the vortex, just throwing the dice in, my book, isn't a cast?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.