Managing the balewind vortex.

[Arkiham]

Following recent discussions in various places about using or playing against the balewind vortex, with Games-workshops FAQ team being slow on the pick up I feel it's probably for the best interest of the game that we provide a fair and balanced nerf of this spell/terrain.

 

So,  I suggest that we come up with a way of doing so, I was thinking suggestions are put forth  and then a poll deciding which, Or combine suggestions into one rule which works.

Considering there is a fair few TOs using this site it would help by using a consistent ruling tournament wide opposed to it varying everywhere.

Attached are it's rules. I'll start off with one I use in my group. 

 

Only flying non monster models can charge the model on top, you cannot climb up air or randomly levitate. allowing foot troops to do so is illogical and breaks immersion, monster models are too large to fit on the top.

Wizards within unbinding range can attempt to unbind the spell, but it uses a spell allowance. so single spell wizards only get that attempt, nagash or whoever it uses one of their allotment up.

Wizards who are monsters, cannot cast this.

 

[Double Misfire]

Why nerf it? It's a totally valid part of the game with rules that work as intended. If you're going to bring in a set of extra rules to neuter it you might as well do the same for Stonehorns, Knight Vexillor and Battle Brew. The "nerfs" you've suggested are mostly pointless too:

15 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Only flying non monster models can charge the model on top, you cannot climb up air or randomly levitate. allowing foot troops to do so is illogical and breaks immersion, monster models are too large to fit on the top.

This one makes the most sense, but can you not just shoot the guy on top? The vortex already gives pretty much every model on the battlefield line of sight to him. Wizard models able to fit ontop one of these aren't going to have more than 5 wounds, and even Khorne Bloodbound have limited ranged stuff (Slaugterpriests and the Korgorath's shooting attack, there may be more). If every major faction has the resources to snipe the guy ontop of these things just alter your metagame appropriately.

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Wizards within unbinding range can attempt to unbind the spell, but it uses a spell allowance. so single spell wizards only get that attempt, nagash or whoever it uses one of their allotment up.

Kind of unnecessarily complicated and redundant when every wizard capable of doing this is capable of casting an arcane bolt at the guy on top and taking him out of the game for good in 2-3 turns (less with help).

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Wizards who are monsters, cannot cast this.

Wizards riding anything bigger than a pegasus can't fit ontop of a Balewind Vortex - you'd struggle to fit a Slann ontop of it. If you want to damage your Nagash model trying to balance his base on a star shaped piece of plastic less than half it's size be my guest. 

 

[Double Misfire]

Strike everything I just said in my last post from the record. @Ben just balanced Drazoath the Ashen on top of one of these things in the Warlords livestream. Please ban from all events.

[Arkiham]

I can easily balance glottkin or archaon on mine , I'll upload a pic later lol

[Double Misfire]

4 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

I can easily balance glottkin or archaon on mine , I'll upload a pic later lol

I do quite like the mental image of Ghurk Glott trying to balance (hopefully on one foot) ontop of a Balewind, with his brothers clinging to his back for dear life.

Surely common sense dictates that if a model is bigger than the surface of the actual Balewind Vortex then it can't park ontop of it. I could balance a dragon ontop of a Baleful Realmgate, but whether the dragon could actually land there is another question.

[Arkiham]

Of course,  but it's very easy to just plop a model on top of the balewind, compared to the realmgate, and a lot more believable. There is some models who just seem broken on the top though, best example, Lord kroak. There's a few others but off the top of my head I can't think of them.

[KhaosZand3r]

A daemon prince (and therefore any model on the old 50mm square base or the 60mm round base) can fit just fine, without any difficulty. But outright banning an already small class of units from using it seems unnecessary, especially with how limited magic is under the Rules of One.

[Nico]

There are a lot of them at The Warlords. 

I played mine in a limited sense and with the most favourable interpretation of the rules for the opponent. This meant that the 3 inch rule only applied in the movement phase (through application of an FAQ answer) so you could charge the wizard on an 8 (and any number of models could get into range - just put them all to one side). Flyers could charge on a 3.

I personally used it to snipe artillery crew with arcane bolt - Hellcannon insurance. Useful but hardly ground breaking. You need to roll a 5 to cast it anyway.

I would suggest either that approach as a comp or to have it so you can just charge the base - so you need a 3 to charge.

Magic is in the toilet at the moment under the GH due to the overwhelming weakness that you cannot move before you cast something whereas shooting is the opposite. Magic certainly doesn't have a monopoly on mortal wounds either with Thundertusks and Warp Lightning Cannons all over the place at The Warlords.

I would implore people not to ban it outright as it is the only hope for utterly useless debuff spells - Daemonsmith, Dark Elf Sorceress, Be'Lakor, who never get a chance to cast their spells due to stupid ranges (debuffs should have a 36 inch range offensive spells 18) otherwise until it's far too late. People should be able to knock -1 to hit off the block of 20 Retributors. 

It also reduces the disadvantage of going first in a game so promotes balance.

It's a magic vortex so it can probably carry Nagash if he wants it to (it doesn't have to be the right size for him to levitate on it) also he can fly anyway.

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

There are a lot of them at The Warlords. 

I played mine in a limited sense and with the most favourable interpretation of the rules for the opponent. This meant that the 3 inch rule only applied in the movement phase (through application of an FAQ answer) so you could charge the wizard on an 8 (and any number of models could get into range - just put them all to one side). Flyers could charge on a 3.

I like this a lot, Cheers Nico. It doesn't rewrite the rules to make the game fairer, simply interprets them sideways so as not to ****** over armies without a lot of ranged stuff. 

[Nico]

I really want to see Daemonsmiths on Balewind Vortices doing -2 to hit to 40 Savage Orruk Archers in combo with Cunning Deceiver for -3 to hit for first Battleround.

[Double Misfire]

6 minutes ago, Nico said:

I really want to see Daemonsmiths on Balewind Vortices doing -2 to hit to 40 Savage Orruk Archers in combo with Cunning Deceiver for -3 to hit for first Battleround.

I hadn't imagined Cunning Deceiver would be such a popular command trait until I saw the list that won Warlords.

[Arkiham]

Well, considering it was apparently banned after round two, so it was obviously something they overlooked. So the rules for it as, are classed by gw as too strong. (It was a gw run event I assume ) so either expect a nerf or it banned at every event.

Even with the suggestion you provided nico

[Nico]

Hopefully just drop the movement restriction - let people attack the building - measuring like a garrisoned building.

[Double Misfire]

30 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Well, considering it was apparently banned after round two, so it was obviously something they overlooked. So the rules for it as, are classed by gw as too strong. (It was a gw run event I assume ) so either expect a nerf or it banned at every event.

Even with the suggestion you provided nico

It's been banned at GW events? I'll stop painting Balthasar Gelt and pick up a Helstorm Rocket Battery then.

[Arkiham]

Yeah, Terry pike said that they were banned on round 2 onwards at the warlords event this weekend. 

 

 

[Double Misfire]

Well, we'll always have Teclis.

[amysrevenge]

What if it had points.  Like, 300?

[Arkiham]

Just need to make it easier to compete against, any points value would be unfair as then slyvaneth would be forced to have points on their woods an then who will summon them?

[amysrevenge]

So make Wyldwoods 5 points.

Good to avoid the precedent of altering actual warscrolls.

[Nico]

Like @Arkiham - hit cap again.

[Arkiham]

25 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

So make Wyldwoods 5 points.

Good to avoid the precedent of altering actual warscrolls.

But then as the balewind is removable how does that work? 5 points per summon for instance, or 5 points to include it.

 

Games workshop has been going in the right direction lately with showing that they're modernising, they should back that up by being quicker with faqs and rule changes if required .

The scenery as far as I know is only digital, so there's very little cost involved with changing the rules.

They should just admit they overlooked it and alter it, instead of just banning it every tournament and sticking their head in the sand like the old gw.

[amysrevenge]

I don't see the reason for hesitance - give scenery warscrolls points, treat them like anything else.  You dismiss it, pay to summon it again.  Make the Balewind Vortex a couple hundred points.  Make the Sylvaneth Wyldwood 5 points (or 0 points).  Treat them like any other warscrolls you are adding to your deployed army.  The mechanic is right there, so use it.

[amysrevenge]

Thinking about it more...

Is it even legit to use them in a GH event right now, since they don't have any points?  Any more than it is legit to use a Realmgate Wars warscroll battalion without points.

No points is not the same thing as free.

[Arkiham]

Scenery doesn't have points. Attaching a points value to balewind anything more than 50 seems unfair, even then for smaller pointed armies, 1k tournaments etc. it's a decent commitment and would possibly make it unfeasible, I don't feel attaching points to it solves the situation and makes it usable at all levels and size games 

[amysrevenge]

Points for anything can make them not feasible for all size of games.  Good luck putting a Colossal Squig out there in your 250 point game.

Open play is perfect for both unpointed warscroll battalions and for unpointed scenery.  I don't think anyone is particularly concerned for Balewind Vortxes/Vortices in Open play.  Matched play needs points to work.  If it seems like you're getting something for free, it means you probably shouldn't be getting it in Matched play.  We can dicker about how many points it should be, and ultimately I'm enough of a sheep that I'll just accept whatever points GW put on it.  But for Matched play, it NEEDS points to be able to use it.