Managing the balewind vortex.

[amysrevenge]

Pfft back in the day of Storm of Magic, I balanced Thorek Ironbrow on there.  WITH Kraggi and his furnace.

[Double Misfire]

2 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Pfft back in the day of Storm of Magic, I balanced Thorek Ironbrow on there.  WITH Kraggi and his furnace.

Double Misfire has liked this post like 20 times, but ran out of likes this morning.

Metal or finecast?

[CoffeeGrunt]

My god...the Anvil of Doom. Boy howdy that brings back memories.

[amysrevenge]

2 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Double Misfire has liked this post like 20 times, but ran out of likes this morning.

Metal or finecast?

Fine what?  What cast?

 

[Double Misfire]

1 minute ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

My god...the Anvil of Doom. Boy howdy that brings back memories.

All good I assume.  

[CoffeeGrunt]

I never owned one, it was the first Warhammer mini I'd ever seen. My friend had one. I was jealous.

[chord]

a balewind on top of a balewind!

[CoffeeGrunt]

...

Is there anything stopping you from doing that?

[Double Misfire]

6 minutes ago, chord said:

a balewind on top of a balewind!

 

@Nico is this legal?

[Arkiham]

I house rule it was if the Base of the model is upon doesn't fit entirely you can't use the Balewind, as you don't fit on the terrain, same as any other terrain, unless the unit is entirely in it you don't gain the save.

[Arkiham]

52 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

 

@Nico is this legal?

I can't imagine the effects stacking  but yeah sure, go for it lol 

[Squirrelmaster]

1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

I can't imagine the effects stacking  but yeah sure, go for it lol 

Pretty sure the effects wouldn't stack, because a model stood on top of the second vortex isn't stood (directly) on top the first one anymore.

Each casting would put your wizard an extra five-and-a-bit inches away from the ground, though — I believe distances in AoS can be measured diagonally, in three dimensions?

[chord]

7 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Pretty sure the effects wouldn't stack, because a model stood on top of the second vortex isn't stood (directly) on top the first one anymore.

Each casting would put your wizard an extra five-and-a-bit inches away from the ground, though — I believe distances in AoS can be measured diagonally, in three dimensions?

It's a style thing

I guess eventually with enough stacking you'd get so high that most missile weapons couldn't hit you.

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, chord said:

It's a style thing

I guess eventually with enough stacking you'd get so high that most missile weapons couldn't hit you.

... at which point even doubled range on your spells doesn't help you acquire any targets.

[KhaosZand3r]

1 minute ago, rokapoke said:

... at which point even doubled range on your spells doesn't help you acquire any targets.

Ninja'd!

[Andreas]

12 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

... at which point even doubled range on your spells doesn't help you acquire any targets.

No you do it in three places of power, dont need to cast any other spells. ?

[rokapoke]

42 minutes ago, Andreas said:

No you do it in three places of power, dont need to cast any other spells. ?

Ah, but are you within range of the objective?

Or is that the one where you can claim the objective and walk away?

[gnaleinad]

I personally find that Balewind Vortex issue is when Wizard like Nagash or Arkhan does summoning and gain immunity to melee.
Balancing big models on top can be done, but the problem was not that.

In match play pitch battleplans, this is just too crazy! Free doubling of spell range is by itself the best deal, +1 is icing on the cake. Immunity to melee is OVERKILL.

Even giving a fixed point cost to it is not justifiable, given that a weak single spell wizard will never use one and all those powerhouse(Nagash/Glottkin) might find it under cost!!

But if we were give a point cost base on the Wizard summoning it everything will become manageable!
Balewind Vortex point(round up) = 0.3 X number of spells X summoner point cost.
IF "summoner point cost" IS CHEAPER than 199 points, double the cost of the "summoner point cost"

Thus it is a 60 point upgrade for a 100 point single spell wizard, still a very affordable upgrade!

All those powerful wizard with many spells who wanna stand on one have to now pay a crazy cost for it.
Thus to summon one Balewind Vortex:

A Moonclan Grot Shaman must pay (0.3 x 1 x 60 x 2) = 36 summoning pool points.
A Weirdnob Shaman must pay (0.3 x 1 x 140 x 2) = 84 summoning pool points.
A Wurrgog Prophet/Arch-Warlord must pay (0.3 x 2 x 140 x 2 ) = 168 summoning pool points.

Arkhan(0.3  x 2 x 340) = 204 summoning pool points.
The Glottkin(0.3 x 2 x 480) = 288 summoning pool points.
Archaon (0.3 x 3 x 700) = 420 summoning pool points.
Alarielle (0.3 x 3 x 620) = 558 summoning pool points.
Lord KROAK (0.3 x 3 x 540) = 648 summoning pool points.
NAGASH (0.3 x 3 x 900) = 810 summoning pool points.

[Arkiham]

Again points removes it from the game.

you have a problem with arkhan  summoning on top of it ? arkhan adds 6" to his spells for a 24" range spell so meh he's likely within range for what he's planning on doing anyway.

 

Nagash on a balewind? ok summon away, your point limit is capped anyway so I'll kill the rest of your army while you're up there, same with arkhan tbh

Again 

Archaon, alarielle or glottkin on top? wtf you doing? get them in combat.

If your opponent puts a any model on the top of a balewind wind which costs 1/4+ of an army  (kroak excluded) and you can't handle the rest of the army.

Perhaps look at your ability as a general unable to deal with a force 3/4 or less of your own before complaining about an advantage your opponent is giving you.

[Nico]

Quote

I personally find that Balewind Vortex issue is when Wizard like Nagash or Arkhan does summoning and gain immunity to melee.

As Arkiham said - what are you talking about. Summoning is incredibly weak under the GH - wow I can pay full points for something which I might be able to bring onto the table 9 inches away so it can fail its charge - when Stormcast can pay full points for something and put it adjacent to the enemy models (with the Azyros combo) or 5 inches away. Summoning Flamers is gone as an option - the Bastiladon if you play Kroak, a Mourngul if I was feeling lucky about making a 9 charge and Harbingers are pretty much the only remaining competitive options.

I played with Nagash yesterday and boy did he suck. I'm hoping he's costed at 900 as Deathlords are going to get an allegiance pack pronto.

Similarly neither Nagash or even Arkhan is being useful if he's not in melee from the earliest opportunity. Arkhan has a 16 inch move, so should be wrecking face on a weak enemy flank.

[gnaleinad]

46 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

If your opponent puts a any model on the top of a balewind wind which costs 1/4+ of an army  (kroak excluded) and you can't handle the rest of the army.

Perhaps look at your ability as a general unable to deal with a force 3/4 or less of your own before complaining about an advantage your opponent is giving you.

Hmmm interesting argument. Have you played against one?
What will you do in against an opponent that does this two list?
Leaders
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead (900)
Units
Zombies x 10 (60)
Zombies x 10 (60)
Zombies x 10 (60)
Summoning Pool
Anything (920)
Balewind Vortex (0)

Leaders
Lord Kroak (540)- General
Saurus Eternity Warden (140)- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
Units
Skinks x 10 (80)- Moonstone Clubs & Star bucklers
Skinks x 10 (80)- Meteoric Javelins & Star bucklers
Skinks x 10 (80)- Meteoric Javelins & Star bucklers
Summoning Pool
Anything (920)
Balewind Vortex (0)

The tactical flexibility and superiority over a fixed list is the first concern. 
If the summoner can do 36" summoning at the 10" mark, tactically he can react to anything in this game.
Nagash gain an amazing +4 to his casting, Kroak get +2.
Nagash has a 48" healing spells. Kroak can summon more Saurus Eternity Warden.

Too many possibilities.. Limited by only how many model you have.

[Nico]

Quote

Nagash has a 48" healing spells.

I used it yesterday - it's an incredibly poor spell. You have to beat their bravery with 2 dice (not the casting roll) to get D3 wounds back. Even against Bravery 6 Dryads it was unreliable.

Quote

Too many possibilities.

You think there are good options but there really aren't. All the Death units that can be summoned aren't good by themselves. They don't particularly synergise with Nagash either. The Spirit Hosts are the best option. The Mourngul is obviously good, but then you're putting 1300 points in 2 models.

The Kroak one is obviously better, but he's the main reason why I play the Balewind as not affecting the ability to charge the wizard on top. Again all it's going to do is summon a Bastiladon and some Temple Guard - big deal. Mortal wounds on the Temple Guard and play for the objectives.

[gnaleinad]

Nagash on Balewind Vortex not scary? I will list the points of the tactical summoning, 920 of anything.

Up against Gunline? Summon 2 Tomb Banshee(160p) and take out the crews. Cast arcane bolt and soul stealer on the survivors.

Against elite units? 40 Zombies(240p), or 10 Hexwraiths(320p), or 6 Spirit Hosts(240p). And add mystic shield. I prefer the Zombies, save the mystic shield for myself. At 36" casting distance, it's amazing how easy to bubble wrap the enemy and tap pit them.
Hexwraiths are great against rending units, Spirit Hosts for high armor saves target.

Against horde units? 6 Morghast Harbingers(480p) eat them up. Summon 2 Cairn Wraith(120p) to clean things up.

Your long-range summoning allows to drop 20 Grave Guards(320) behind your opponent to deal some ******.

Really want to irritate your opponent, get a Mourngul(400p) and keep doing 40 Zombies(240p). Your original Zombie Horde can join in the fun for massive tap pit. Summon in a Cairn Wraith(60p) to flank your opponent.

Do consider that in Escalation, Border War, Blood and Glory (basically model count victory conditions) this list is magic.
In a 6' x 4' table there are just too much space for 36" summoning.

[Arkiham]

4 minutes ago, gnaleinad said:

Nagash on Balewind Vortex not scary? I will list the points of the tactical summoning, 920 of anything.

Up against Gunline? Summon 2 Tomb Banshee(160p) and take out the crews. Cast arcane bolt and soul stealer on the survivors.

Against elite units? 40 Zombies(240p), or 10 Hexwraiths(320p), or 6 Spirit Hosts(240p). And add mystic shield. I prefer the Zombies, save the mystic shield for myself. At 36" casting distance, it's amazing how easy to bubble wrap the enemy and tap pit them.
Hexwraiths are great against rending units, Spirit Hosts for high armor saves target.

Against horde units? 6 Morghast Harbingers(480p) eat them up. Summon 2 Cairn Wraith(120p) to clean things up.

Your long-range summoning allows to drop 20 Grave Guards(320) behind your opponent to deal some ******.

Really want to irritate your opponent, get a Mourngul(400p) and keep doing 40 Zombies(240p). Your original Zombie Horde can join in the fun for massive tap pit. Summon in a Cairn Wraith(60p) to flank your opponent.

Do consider that in Escalation, Border War, Blood and Glory (basically model count victory conditions) this list is magic.
In a 6' x 4' table there are just too much space for 36" summoning.

so, if it's so good, and so brokenly strong and ultimately powerful. why hasn't it won tournament after tournament? 

 

[Aeonotakist]

Karak is a big problem. Also I guess its main reason why in Warlord is has been banned.

I would say Aechaon on horse can be very disgusting on Balewind which I have experienced. Normally it is a unit you have so many ways to deal with. Now I suddenly can only rely on shot, or seeing it keep using his general ability.

Celestial Hurricanum is digusting too due to this can buff people's combat ability dramatically and its shooting/ magic can pay for the 400pts it costs.

The Drathoath Ashen is also quite OK on balewind.

 

I would say most wizards on Balewind just balanced the game since they were originally so poor performanced.

However some of them eventually ruin the game by pushing out the melee focused list.