Managing the balewind vortex.

[KhaosZand3r]

I have to agree. If it were still just a normal piece of scenery, stuck on the board and available to both players without being summoned, then it being free like all other scenery would make sense. But by being part of an army build that is specific to the user, it should cost something.

[Ben]

I asked for a ruling this before doing it on camera.  Was told its fine.  They talked about it on the live stream too.

I used it to push my magma cannons intern extra 3" range and also double the range of the spells and get +1 to cast.  Never needed to use it to stop people charging Drazhoath. 

 

 

[Arkiham]

55 minutes ago, Ben said:

I asked for a ruling this before doing it on camera.  Was told its fine.  They talked about it on the live stream too.

I used it to push my magma cannons intern extra 3" range and also double the range of the spells and get +1 to cast.  Never needed to use it to stop people charging Drazhoath. 

 

 

What was the reason it was banned for if you know?

[Nico]

Probably someone trolling using Kroak plus Astrolith bearer and making him near unkillable.

[ianob]

Terrain is a warscroll and warscrolls cost points. Summoning costs points from your reserve. Simply, this leads us to the fact that since Warscrolls without points values cannot be used. The exception being warscrolls that are specifically referenced (such as Wildwoods) and only then because there seems to be community agreement (and let's face it, Sylvaneth wouldn't work without them, even if a lot of people dislike them and would like to see them capped, or whatever). But by the letter of the rules, Wildwood summoning shouldn't be allowed as it has no points value.

The problem here is precedent. Wildwoods are setting a precedent that any scenery warscroll is free, which I think we can all agree certainly shouldn't be the case.


Now, onto the Balewind Vortex. Rules as written, models must be placed so that they are not within 3". It does not stipulate how or where. So, as written, you can drop a Balewind Vortex and then reposition every model within 3" of it, anywhere on the board. 

The problem here is, it's clear that the rules for this are not well written or tested and you only have to read the above to see why, let alone the issue of the vortex in objective games or with certainly models on top of it.


If I'm ruling on this at our events, I'm simply banning terrain Warscrolls other than

1) Wildwoods, because it's an army function
2) Warscrolls for scenery that has been placed by the TO


A more specific fix would be to remove the summoning ability of the BWV, but until there are better (more concise and clear) rules for terrain in matched play from GW, might as well fix all of it at once.

[Arkiham]

Except that it's been faq'do that it doesn't have points and will not have points.

 

And scenery is free, it's either provided or its brought along. It's set up before the battle and is a completely separate entity with most places treating scenery as non important entirely  

[BaldoBeardo]

Yeah, that's some fairly shaky logical foundations, especially as you then try to paint the Wyldwood as a dangerous precedent-setting exception, rather than an example of the rules as intended.

Real issue is that the Balewind Vortex is all chocolate and no broccoli.
Sacrificing being able to move is in no way a 'fair' pay off for the other boons it grants, so we need to see some other balancing factor. Because.
Except there isn't one.

Ah, matched play. You little joy sponge, you...

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[Arkiham]

3 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Yeah, that's some fairly shaky logical foundations, especially as you then try to paint the Wyldwood as a dangerous precedent-setting exception, rather than an example of the rules as intended.

Real issue is that the Balewind Vortex is all chocolate and no broccoli.
Sacrificing being able to move is in no way a 'fair' pay off for the other boons it grants, so we need to see some other balancing factor. Because.
Except there isn't one.

Ah, matched play. You little joy sponge, you...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

At no point that I can recall, have I said that the summonable scenery should have points, I've staunchly argued against it. 

 

If in an objectives based match, you cannot deal with a single balewind the problem is more than likely on your part than anything else.

If your opponent summons multiple ones then it becomes an issue if you haven't got the tools to deal with it, one attempt per hero phase.

The same can be said for anything , if your army is weak in melee and someone builds a massive melee focused army, is that aspect suddenly broken? same goes with shooting and magic. no its your poor army building.

Forcing a points value on to it will completely remove it, and set the precedent that wyldwoods should have it which nerfs an entire army for no reason other than people's inability to adapt and just scream "broken"

[BaldoBeardo]

At no point that I can recall, have I said that the summonable scenery should have points, I've staunchly argued against it. 

Apologies, my response wasn't to you...


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[ThePhyx]

As a death army I always have had to build armies capable of dealing with people that run artillery, like catapults, bolt throwers, cannons, etc. So with a faq'ed, GW approved Balewind vortex I can actually do a few mortal wounds of my own. If my opponent is unable to deal with a stationary model with clear line of sight using some form of ranged that's not my problem. I have managed.

[EldritchX]

The Vortex 'should' be fixed just about as much as wizards have its cost built into them. There's no compelling reason to believe one over the other except that the rules as written indicate one and not the other. Try playing the game the way it is written, maybe? If nothing else, it's less likely to cause confusion and conflict over changes that not everyone might agree with.

[Squirrelmaster]

By the rules-as-written, the vortex is as much a core part of the game as Arcane Bolt or Mystic Shield. As I see it, the two problems with it are:

1. It doesn't feel like it was ever intended to be a core part of the game.
2. It forces every player who wants to be "competitive" to buy as many vortex models as they have wizards.

Nerfing the vortex's rules isn't going to change the fact that it's a free bonus. So long as it's at least situationally useful, and doesn't cost any points, it's worth having the model for the potential use, and people are going to complain about it.

So personally, I agree that the best way to "fix" it is to give it a points cost.

Either that, or allow people to somehow use it without buying an expensive model. Maybe provide some cheap cardboard slot-together proxies for every tournament attendee? So long as people are aware ahead of time that they are playing in a meta where the vortex has been embraced as a core part of the game.

[Johann]

46 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

 

1. It forces every player who wants to be "competitive" to buy as many vortex models as they have wizards.

It's a spell and can be just cast once per round or?

In this case you need more rounds to bring every wizard in the Sky and don't know if you really need so many Models.

But i agree in general, that such auto-includes are not the best for the gameplay (but i guess the vortex is not the biggest balancing issue...).

[Squirrelmaster]

1 minute ago, Johann said:

It's a spell and can be just cast once per round or?

In this case you need more rounds to bring every wizard in the Sky and don't know if you really need so many Models.

But i agree in general, that such auto-includes are not the best for the gameplay (but i guess the vortex is not the biggest balancing issue...).

Yeah, OK, you probably don't need more than one or two, realistically.

I mean, if you're really competitive you'd bring one for each wizard, to a maximum of five, just in case you ended up wanting to summon a new one each turn throughout the entire game. It doesn't cost you any points to do so, after all, and it gives you a slight competitive advantage if the situation arises, but both the potential benefit and the odds of the situation arising drop with each additional vortex.

[Thostos]

 

  First off for the Balewind,,I dont personally think its overly powerfull in general with its double range on spells..however the restriction on movement around it is much more of an issue especially when its activated on an objective thus forcing the opponent to charge the wizard on top to deal with it..that in itself is rather goofy with somehow enemy models being able to melee the wizard on the top,I guess they "disrupt" the vortex or something.Either way I would like to see a ruling that a wizard up on the Vortex doesnt count toward capture,control or contest when it comes to objectives.Im suggesting this to my group.

 

 

 

 

[Arkiham]

How many wizards did you see in the top 10 armies at warlords.

There's 1 or 2. Max 3.

It's got nothing to do with being super competitive. tbh from talk I've heard from various podcasts and YouTube videos the serious tournament players don't care about them as they can work around it. it's the people who fancy themselves as good who have problems with it.

 

Tbh all youll be suffering is normally d3 or (rarely ) d6 mortal wounds, it's not much. Wizards on the objective? shoot it off. or magic it off. wait, your list can't do that? then you aren't building the super competitive list you think you are.

Add points to it? say 40-50 ok that makes me take a warp lighting cannon instead of the wizard if I plan to use my wizard for offensive play.

Most wizards aren't even used for their offensive spells, it's the supporting wizards who throw out the odd offensive spell are the ones taken.

The model costs £10, not much tbh.

Adding points removes the entire thing from the game, it needs a rule change, it needs to be maintained in each hero phase, so recast at the start of the hero phase and the possibility to be dispelled in the opponents hero phase. 

@Nico has often used a rule interpretation to allow charges, but I feel it breaks this "rule " I say rule, it's more advice on how to play so shouldn't be used, but it's up to you.

[Nico]

Quote

Now, onto the Balewind Vortex. Rules as written, models must be placed so that they are not within 3". It does not stipulate how or where. So, as written, you can drop a Balewind Vortex and then reposition every model within 3" of it, anywhere on the board. 

This is the most absurd argument I've seen. It's a complete straw man.

Quote

The problem here is precedent. Wildwoods are setting a precedent that any scenery warscroll is free, which I think we can all agree certainly shouldn't be the case.

There's no consensus here, so don't assert that there is.

Here's a short list (and it is short) of Wizards that actually benefit from the Balewind Vortex in a material way (more than just Arcane Bolting the crew of a Hellcannon). Many of them are rarely seen on the tabletop at events . Only one of them is truly gamechanging and that's the 540 point toad in the oh so unpopular Seraphon.

• Daemonsmith (debuff)
• Drazhoath (borderline - for one turn only)
• Dark Elf Sorceress (debuff)
• Grey Wizard (debuff)
• Skink Starseer (debuff)
• Luminark (Burning Gaze - but limits its shooting attack significantly)
• Teclis 
• Kroak
• Branchwraith (Reaping Bomb - Silverwood Circlet)
• Alarielle (borderline - for one turn only)
• Be'Lakor (debuff)
• New Gaunt Summoner (bye bye blocks of chaff)
• Arch Warlock (Chain Lightning)
• Lord of Change (Infernal Gateway -  a less reliable Thundertusk)
• Count Mannfred (Wind of Death)
• Moonclan Grot Shaman (Curse of Da Bad Moon)

Many of them are pro-balance because they are debuffs that would not otherwise be castable in the first turn - this makes the penalty of going first and facing the possible double turn less bad, e.g. sticking -2 to hit on a unit of 40 Savage Orruk Arrowboyz or halving all of the moves of a Stonehorn with Teclis.

 

 

[Double Misfire]

Nice list @Nico

Can we get a Sylvaneth character casting the Reaping with the item that gives an extra 6" range to spells in there? If you get one into the right position, D3 mortal wounds on all enemy units within 16" is nothing to be sniffed at!

Also worth noting than on a casting roll of 6 or higher Teclis is going to be getting Tempest off anyway, so the Balewind is a little less exciting for him than it is most wizards.

[Nico]

Quote

Can we get a Sylvaneth character casting the Reaping with the item that gives an extra 6" range to spells in there? If you get one into the right position, D3 mortal wounds on all enemy units within 16" is nothing to be sniffed at!

18 inches (3+6), then doubled to 18. That's an oversight since I was one of the first to spot that one.

[Double Misfire]

Oh ok, I don't have the Sylvaneth book to hand and had got it into my head the Reaping was only 2". Extra gross, thanks!

[RuneBrush]

Not sure if I've missed something but surely in matched play you can only summon one per turn?  Reading a couple of comments I've had the impression that people are perceiving their opponents bringing one for each mage from turn one?

[Nico]

Quote

Not sure if I've missed something but surely in matched play you can only summon one per turn?  Reading a couple of comments I've had the impression that people are perceiving their opponents bringing one for each mage from turn one?

You're right that the summoning Balewind spell is subject to the usual Rule of One.

[Arkiham]

17 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Not sure if I've missed something but surely in matched play you can only summon one per turn?  Reading a couple of comments I've had the impression that people are perceiving their opponents bringing one for each mage from turn one?

Yeah it's once per turn. 

 

Honestly I get the feeling that 90% of people's worries about the Balewind roots entirely from theorycraft and extreme "what ifs"

 

but when put into actual game play it turns out to be massively overhyped or people crying broken without thinking about methods to combat it. 

[chord]

I feel like the Phoenix will benefit greately from the Balewind as it's a summon spell that allows another spell after that.  This means the phoenix would could possibly benefit twice for a single wizard when the spells are cast near it (3 if you place mystic shield on the phoenix)

[Double Misfire]

What models would you guys most like to see balanced on a Balewind Vortex?

 

My personal nominations are:

-Anything from Forge World

-Archaon (not sure how even the weight distribution on Dorghar is)

-Coven Throne

-the Silver Tower Gaunt Summoner with all his Familiars

-Azhag the Slaughterer

-Celestial Hurricanum/Luminark of Hysh

-A unit of 30 Pink Horrors, tumbling monkeys style