AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Ranzou]

20 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

That sets him apart from other cheaper heroes.

Thanks a lot, I'll try him.

Also i'll try your death star, but with small tweak.

Emerald Host for -1 save

Warlord for extra art:

Olinder - general for +1 heal, soul cage

Kurdoss

Cruci with Pendant

GoS with WychLight, shademist

ST

Chainghasts

Hexwraiths - for Olinder, third battleline and mobile scoring

Hunters of heartlands for ingoring those monsters:

30 rasps

20 reapers

10 bladegheists

Black coach 

[lare2]

10 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Figured I'd break out my models and try to illustrate in real space the concepts of both the Death Star charge and the Chainghast/Bladegheist interactions.

So, first, the Death Star.

Here's what 2000 points gets you in the Sotek build:

The main body in the center is the Death Star. The Chainghasts, Spirit Hosts, and the Terminexus represent points, but should in the very least be what goes into the Underworlds and aren't on the field during deployment. (Ignore that I am missing some Chainrasps, they are currently being stretched on the rack [read: mended with drying superglue] for their misdeeds. Also ignore my movement trays, I'd have taken them out in a real game.)

Here's a closer look at the formation itself:

Each of these units and their position is pretty important.

• The Chainrasps perform two functions: The bulk of your damage output and the biggest buffer against incoming damage.
• The Reapers perform one function, essentially: Higher damage output against hordes, but otherwise extra damage that swings with Chainrasps.
• The Bladegheists and Black Coach have versatility: If your opponent can't put anything in reserves, isn't fast, can't teleport, or can otherwise exploit an exposed back end, they can roam and engage threats on the field. Otherwise, they provide flank support for your heroes and, in the case of the Black Coach, provide healing.
• Heroes
  • The Spirit Torment needs to be as close to the center as possible, both to hide it as much as possible from enemy targeting (it is arguably the most important model in the setup), but also so that everything is within 6" for it's Captured Soul Energy. It is not the general for this exact reason.
  • The Guardian of Souls has a similar need. Being the General in this build, staying central allows for Ruler of the Spirit Hosts to have maximum targets.
  • The Krulghast Cruciator has a little play, both the Empowered Excruciation and Pendant of the Fell Wind that it carries having a wholly within 12" range. Shooting at 12" also means it can be back a bit.
  • Knight of Shrouds also needs to be wholly within 12" for its ability to affect everyone, but can be offset just a bit for hopes of engaging in battle, if and only if, Soul Cage was successful. It's carrying the Mystic Tome in this build, and Soul Cage also has a range of 12".
  • Kurdoss is there for violence. Just keep him protected until you can use him. He goes on the outside edge because he thirsts for a fight an can engage at your discretion.
  • Lady Olynder does all her consistent damage 10" and needs to be within 6" to use her Grave-sands. So she gets a spot centralized with the group, but can edge up as needed. Though she has 2" on her staff, she should never be in combat unless your Chainrasps can prevent a 1" enemy weapon from hitting you, and never if they are carrying anything more than that. Functionally ignore her Handmaidens for this reason.

You might notice there is a gap. That is because:

You will want to cast the Terminexus as soon as possible. If there is any ranged, or damaging magic, or any chance that the enemy can engage you before you want to fight, you have this to keep your heroes alive. Your opponent is not only going to have to hard-target a hero to get enough wounds on it to kill it, it has to in a single round, otherwise you will have at least 1 hero phase to start healing. It goes here because it has a 6" range, but not wholly, in which to heal, and putting here makes it easy to hit all the heroes and the Coach (if the Coach is with this group).

Okay, that's the basic formation out of the way. Keep in mind that during the course of a game, things can shift and jostle, and you may opt to detach units like the Bladegheists or Kurdoss at any time. As long as your heroes are protected and your buffs are overlapping and affecting everyone, that's the core takeaway of this formation.

Now, what about getting into combat?

Ideally, you want to dictate when that happens. With the Pendant of the Fell Wind, the entire group can move 9" without a run, accounting for the slowest of the group. Since you won't attack with most of the heroes, they can run bringing the movement of the entire group to 11" and still being able to charge, so long as Oly and other 6" movement heroes roll a 2 to run. If they lag a bit, that's okay if the buffs stay in range, but don't lag too much. You still have to consider ranges after charging.

When engaging, try not to do this first setup:

While the Chainrasps only need a 3 to successfully charge, coming in dead-on means you won't have a lot of room for the Reapers or Kurdoss to join the fight. If this is all you can manage, either because of terrain or other factors, then certainly go for it and maybe leave a gap in the middle for a Reaper to get within a 1/2". But this isn't ideal.

Instead try to manage this:

Coming in at an angle means you can leverage the charge roll to position as many ghosts swinging for blood as possible. (Ignore my bad positioning of that Chainrasp that violates the 3" rule. This was hard to photograph and keep everything in check...)

Considering roll averages, a charge roll should land around 6. This setup allows for even worse rolls to still be advantageous to you. The Chainrasps need only a 3 to engage. Let's assume you roll a 4.

A roll of a 4 will place you somewhere like this. Obviously, if you roll higher or manage to net that all-powerful Wave of Terror, this will look completely different. Use the distance you can move to get into position, remember you have 3" of pile in available on activation, but also remember you need your buff auras.

So, now the Reapers:

The Reapers only need a 4 for one of them to make contact. You only need one to do so. Since the average charge roll is 6, you are still better than average if you can get a 4-5 for comfortable movement. No matter what the charge roll is, just make contact with one reaper and then flow the rest behind. Don't worry about cohesion at this step.

So let's assume they make the charge.

Reapers, with their 2" of range, should fall in behind the Chainrasps. Cohesion only matters at the end of the turn, so you can safely ignore it now an use their combat phase to consolidate.

Kurdoss. Oh Kurdoss. He's itching for a fight, and if you played your movement and charges right, he only needs a 6 to get it. A perfectly average roll percentage.

Okay, so my ability to take pictures and also use rulers kind of stops around this point, if it hadn't already. Try to take the angle of the picture, the balanced ruler, and everything else with a grain of salt. Just a grain, though, save the rest for Kurdoss.

Keep in mind, we're doing something with all this movement very few other armies can do. We fly, so we can ignore our own models when measuring movement. Our only bit of concern is making sure the model's bases can go where you want them to after the move. No curve rulering necessary, and Kurdoss can take great advantage of that right here.

Anyway, why was all this necessary? The buffs!

And here is my absolutely poor attempt at showing you what I mean. After all of this your wholly within 12" buffs should still be in range. Fire off that CP on the KoS, revel in the free RR-misses/1s, soak up that +1 to wound!

But, be careful. Your front is now exposed should something slip in for your heroes. If you engage like this and cannot quickly kill what's in front of you, consider the next phase carefully. If you win the priority, great, you can shuffle your heroes somewhere. If not, hopefully this big mess means that your opponent focuses on what can certainly kill them in the second round of combat and not the heroes, or are too far away with reinforcements. Lastly, remember your Terminexus; it's there to keep your heroes up, but if you don't need it have it fly out and turn on damage mode to assist with some mortal wounds. Oh, and the Black Coach and Bladegheists can also join in if they are a part of the Star and not needed for rear protection.

 

Okay. Chainghasts. Why Chainghasts? This is why.

You can zone in a unit of these at minimum range, 9" out, at the end of the movement phase. Not pictured: The Bladegheists who are, of course, in the perfect position to charge.

And here are the Bladegheists. No, they don't bunch up like this and fight in two ranks, I just wanted to grab a quick picture. The important part here is that there is more than enough room, even if wrapping around an enemy, to stay wholly within 12" for the buff.

It's generally better to use the Chainghasts for this partially because they are cheap, partially because they are not benefitting anyone other than the Bladeghests and so you are not losing out on anything when they are in the Underworlds, and partially because if you fail the charge with the Bladegheists you don't have a Spirit Torment hanging out by itself ready to be picked off. That being said, if you do opt to use a Sprit Torment like this, there's nothing wrong with that. For sure Captured Soul Energy and Deathless Sprits are worthy reasons to park a ST in reserve for a moment like this, or accompanying them around the board. Just mind movement distances all involved units are capable of, including running.

Not sure why this Kurdoss pic is here again. I can't get rid of it. I guess Kurdoss is just that angry...

I can only commend you on the effort put into first figuring this out and then actually doing it. 

It's for reasons like this that I'm rubbish at this game! I would never have the patience for that!

[Dogmantra]

13 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Welcome to the faction. Hopefully we can get you the information you need to get you on your way. Feel free to ask about anything not covered. I have written a (very dense) guide for beginners that might help, too.

Ah curses, your writeup is getting me really excited to play NH now, just as the new Stormcast book came out!

I'm interested to hear thoughts on where I should look to expand my collection. I just finished the entire Mortal Realms magazine, so I have a good selection of heroes, but troops are a little lacking.

I currently have one of every Nighthaunt Hero (inluding Thorns of the Briar Queen) except the Cruciator. I also have two Executioners, two Dreadblade Harrows, and two Spirit Torments.

For troops, I have:

• 20x Chainrasps
• 3x Spirit Hosts
• 9x Grimghast Reapers (yeah I know it's silly, but I was thinking of proxying a Cairn Wraith in there to make it up to a full unit)
• 5x Hexwraiths
• 9x Glaivewraith Stalkers (another weird number... maybe I should convert one into a grimghast)
• 4x Myrmourn Banshees
• 10x Bladegheist Revenants
• 10x Dreadscythe Harridans
• 2x Chainghasts

I'm on a budget so I wanna fit in as much stuff I already own into a list rather than say, go all in on hexwraiths for Emerald Procession (I also just don't like the hexwraith models very much).

I was thinking to get up to a decent ish list I would add 10 chainrasps for a block of 30 and 3 spirit hosts for a block of 6? I dunno, list ideas welcome, preferably with little purchasing needed.

[EnixLHQ]

On 10/1/2021 at 6:41 AM, Dogmantra said:

Ah curses, your writeup is getting me really excited to play NH now, just as the new Stormcast book came out!

I'm interested to hear thoughts on where I should look to expand my collection. I just finished the entire Mortal Realms magazine, so I have a good selection of heroes, but troops are a little lacking.

I currently have one of every Nighthaunt Hero (inluding Thorns of the Briar Queen) except the Cruciator. I also have two Executioners, two Dreadblade Harrows, and two Spirit Torments.

For troops, I have:

• 20x Chainrasps
• 3x Spirit Hosts
• 9x Grimghast Reapers (yeah I know it's silly, but I was thinking of proxying a Cairn Wraith in there to make it up to a full unit)
• 5x Hexwraiths
• 9x Glaivewraith Stalkers (another weird number... maybe I should convert one into a grimghast)
• 4x Myrmourn Banshees
• 10x Bladegheist Revenants
• 10x Dreadscythe Harridans
• 2x Chainghasts

I'm on a budget so I wanna fit in as much stuff I already own into a list rather than say, go all in on hexwraiths for Emerald Procession (I also just don't like the hexwraith models very much).

I was thinking to get up to a decent ish list I would add 10 chainrasps for a block of 30 and 3 spirit hosts for a block of 6? I dunno, list ideas welcome, preferably with little purchasing needed.

Let me temper that excitement a little; we have got a lot of problems that I hope a new battletome will address. We're probably one of the best armies for the "rule of cool," but we have some mechanical issues that really pinned us down in 2.0. In 3.0 those issues are less, but still present. We went from "trash tier" (though I never believed that) to "mid tier" with the new edition, and hopefully soon we'll have a book that puts us fully into the competitive space.

I definitely would start with the Chainrasps and Spirit Hosts. A max unit of either is really nice to have as options.

You can fix your odd numbers by going to your local GW and asking if they have any models on sprues you can have or buy. The missing Reaper should be pretty easy to find like that. I wouldn't worry about the Glaivewraiths (you can actually use those as conversion materials. The new battletome may change them completely, but for now you can't take more than 8 in a game.)

Between the Processions the tournament community believes Reikenor's Condemned to be the more competitive option. It brings tools to a game that fit the current meta well and the only cost for those tools is a Corpse Candle, which is pretty good.

Emerald Host, it's amazingly cool theming aside, is considered casual for a couple mechanical reasons; the Emerald Curse's permanent -1 to an enemy hero Save is worded in such a way that it's easily undone. The rule in 3.0 is that you can have a max of +1 to save over your warscroll value, so the curse is effectively removed by just stacking +Save sources up to +2, which is legal. The other is the FAQs on "bodyguard" mechanics. The rule currently is that if any ability would prevent a model from taking a wound by transferring it to another model, that transfer prevents any additional ward saves. So, if you had Olynder and Hexwaiths, and she gets targeted, if she fails her save and has to take a wound but passes it to the Hexwaith, the Hexwaith has to take the wound. No Deathless. New FAQ undid this change.

Edited October 15, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[Btimmy]

Interesting death star guide, one comment. Units must finish every move in coherency (1.3.3.) so you can't end a charge outside of coherency and fix it in the combat phase. Other than that, great thoughts!

[EnixLHQ]

6 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

Interesting death star guide, one comment. Units must finish every move in coherency (1.3.3.) so you can't end a charge outside of coherency and fix it in the combat phase. Other than that, great thoughts!

Nah, it's legal. The rule states "If a friendly unit is not coherent at the end of a turn or after you set it up..." A turn doesn't end until after the battleshock phase.

This is used all the time in tournaments. Orcs (forget which ones) use their 6" pile-in feature to abuse this rule to great effect.

[Btimmy]

1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said:

Nah, it's legal. The rule states "If a friendly unit is not coherent at the end of a turn or after you set it up..." A turn doesn't end until after the battleshock phase.

This is used all the time in tournaments. Orcs (forget which ones) use their 6" pile-in feature to abuse this rule to great effect.

This is not true I am afraid: here is a link to some of the relevant rules. https://gyazo.com/db4d1c0d1e64c3dfb5b5aa96d4ed017c

The only other thing is that a charge is a Charge MOVE (rule bolded). This in conjunction means you cannot charge unless you can charge into coherency.

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Btimmy said:

This is not true I am afraid: here is a link to some of the relevant rules. https://gyazo.com/db4d1c0d1e64c3dfb5b5aa96d4ed017c

The only other thing is that a charge is a Charge MOVE (rule bolded). This in conjunction means you cannot charge unless you can charge into coherency.

Ah, I concede the point. Interesting, though, that this is being abused at higher levels. It could be a rule I don't know about specific to those armies, though. Unfortunately, not a lot of Nighthaunt-specific tournament data to compare against.

I'll revise if I do add this to the guide.

[Liquidsteel]

Current consensus is that a bodyguard shrug is not a ward in and of itself. They removed the bit about bodyguards not being able to ward and instead ruled that any roll where part of it is a ward counts as a ward.

The keyword is Negate. If part of the rule involves negating its a ward.

So Praetors are a ward, but Emerald Host or something like a Necromancer is not. 

[EnixLHQ]

44 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Current consensus is that a bodyguard shrug is not a ward in and of itself. They removed the bit about bodyguards not being able to ward and instead ruled that any roll where part of it is a ward counts as a ward.

The keyword is Negate. If part of the rule involves negating its a ward.

So Praetors are a ward, but Emerald Host or something like a Necromancer is not. 

I hope that's true, because that's huge. I can't find a citation either for or against this other than some commentary on fan sites, though.

That fixes one of the three problems with Emerald Host, at least.

 

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah you have to read between the lines a bit, but RAW it seems to be fine.

I'm not sure in which order you do them, I think you are free to sequence as you see fit, so can take the ward on Olynder then shrug. Though the hexwraiths would not get a second ward because its the same wound.

[SirSalabean]

Hi all I’m considering Nighthaunt as my next project and was wondering where do I start? I appreciate I’ve just missed the soul wars half however it seems most the range is fairly cheap due to the mortal realms magazine so I don’t mind.

thanks

[Nqshou]

On 10/1/2021 at 1:05 AM, EnixLHQ said:

Figured I'd break out my models and try to illustrate in real space the concepts of both the Death Star charge and the Chainghast/Bladegheist interactions.

So, first, the Death Star.

Here's what 2000 points gets you in the Sotek build:

The main body in the center is the Death Star. The Chainghasts, Spirit Hosts, and the Terminexus represent points, but should in the very least be what goes into the Underworlds and aren't on the field during deployment. (Ignore that I am missing some Chainrasps, they are currently being stretched on the rack [read: mended with drying superglue] for their misdeeds. Also ignore my movement trays, I'd have taken them out in a real game.)

Here's a closer look at the formation itself:

Each of these units and their position is pretty important.

• The Chainrasps perform two functions: The bulk of your damage output and the biggest buffer against incoming damage.
• The Reapers perform one function, essentially: Higher damage output against hordes, but otherwise extra damage that swings with Chainrasps.
• The Bladegheists and Black Coach have versatility: If your opponent can't put anything in reserves, isn't fast, can't teleport, or can otherwise exploit an exposed back end, they can roam and engage threats on the field. Otherwise, they provide flank support for your heroes and, in the case of the Black Coach, provide healing.
• Heroes
  • The Spirit Torment needs to be as close to the center as possible, both to hide it as much as possible from enemy targeting (it is arguably the most important model in the setup), but also so that everything is within 6" for it's Captured Soul Energy. It is not the general for this exact reason.
  • The Guardian of Souls has a similar need. Being the General in this build, staying central allows for Ruler of the Spirit Hosts to have maximum targets.
  • The Krulghast Cruciator has a little play, both the Empowered Excruciation and Pendant of the Fell Wind that it carries having a wholly within 12" range. Shooting at 12" also means it can be back a bit.
  • Knight of Shrouds also needs to be wholly within 12" for its ability to affect everyone, but can be offset just a bit for hopes of engaging in battle, if and only if, Soul Cage was successful. It's carrying the Mystic Tome in this build, and Soul Cage also has a range of 12".
  • Kurdoss is there for violence. Just keep him protected until you can use him. He goes on the outside edge because he thirsts for a fight an can engage at your discretion.
  • Lady Olynder does all her consistent damage 10" and needs to be within 6" to use her Grave-sands. So she gets a spot centralized with the group, but can edge up as needed. Though she has 2" on her staff, she should never be in combat unless your Chainrasps can prevent a 1" enemy weapon from hitting you, and never if they are carrying anything more than that. Functionally ignore her Handmaidens for this reason.

You might notice there is a gap. That is because:

You will want to cast the Terminexus as soon as possible. If there is any ranged, or damaging magic, or any chance that the enemy can engage you before you want to fight, you have this to keep your heroes alive. Your opponent is not only going to have to hard-target a hero to get enough wounds on it to kill it, it has to in a single round, otherwise you will have at least 1 hero phase to start healing. It goes here because it has a 6" range, but not wholly, in which to heal, and putting here makes it easy to hit all the heroes and the Coach (if the Coach is with this group).

Okay, that's the basic formation out of the way. Keep in mind that during the course of a game, things can shift and jostle, and you may opt to detach units like the Bladegheists or Kurdoss at any time. As long as your heroes are protected and your buffs are overlapping and affecting everyone, that's the core takeaway of this formation.

Now, what about getting into combat?

Ideally, you want to dictate when that happens. With the Pendant of the Fell Wind, the entire group can move 9" without a run, accounting for the slowest of the group. Since you won't attack with most of the heroes, they can run bringing the movement of the entire group to 11" and still being able to charge, so long as Oly and other 6" movement heroes roll a 2 to run. If they lag a bit, that's okay if the buffs stay in range, but don't lag too much. You still have to consider ranges after charging.

When engaging, try not to do this first setup:

While the Chainrasps only need a 3 to successfully charge, coming in dead-on means you won't have a lot of room for the Reapers or Kurdoss to join the fight. If this is all you can manage, either because of terrain or other factors, then certainly go for it and maybe leave a gap in the middle for a Reaper to get within a 1/2". But this isn't ideal.

Instead try to manage this:

Coming in at an angle means you can leverage the charge roll to position as many ghosts swinging for blood as possible. (Ignore my bad positioning of that Chainrasp that violates the 3" rule. This was hard to photograph and keep everything in check...)

Considering roll averages, a charge roll should land around 6. This setup allows for even worse rolls to still be advantageous to you. The Chainrasps need only a 3 to engage. Let's assume you roll a 4.

A roll of a 4 will place you somewhere like this. Obviously, if you roll higher or manage to net that all-powerful Wave of Terror, this will look completely different. Use the distance you can move to get into position, remember you have 3" of pile in available on activation, but also remember you need your buff auras.

So, now the Reapers:

The Reapers only need a 4 for one of them to make contact. You only need one to do so. Since the average charge roll is 6, you are still better than average if you can get a 4-5 for comfortable movement. No matter what the charge roll is, just make contact with one reaper and then flow the rest behind. Don't worry about cohesion at this step.

So let's assume they make the charge.

Reapers, with their 2" of range, should fall in behind the Chainrasps. Cohesion only matters at the end of the turn, so you can safely ignore it now an use their combat phase to consolidate.

Kurdoss. Oh Kurdoss. He's itching for a fight, and if you played your movement and charges right, he only needs a 6 to get it. A perfectly average roll percentage.

Okay, so my ability to take pictures and also use rulers kind of stops around this point, if it hadn't already. Try to take the angle of the picture, the balanced ruler, and everything else with a grain of salt. Just a grain, though, save the rest for Kurdoss.

Keep in mind, we're doing something with all this movement very few other armies can do. We fly, so we can ignore our own models when measuring movement. Our only bit of concern is making sure the model's bases can go where you want them to after the move. No curve rulering necessary, and Kurdoss can take great advantage of that right here.

Anyway, why was all this necessary? The buffs!

And here is my absolutely poor attempt at showing you what I mean. After all of this your wholly within 12" buffs should still be in range. Fire off that CP on the KoS, revel in the free RR-misses/1s, soak up that +1 to wound!

But, be careful. Your front is now exposed should something slip in for your heroes. If you engage like this and cannot quickly kill what's in front of you, consider the next phase carefully. If you win the priority, great, you can shuffle your heroes somewhere. If not, hopefully this big mess means that your opponent focuses on what can certainly kill them in the second round of combat and not the heroes, or are too far away with reinforcements. Lastly, remember your Terminexus; it's there to keep your heroes up, but if you don't need it have it fly out and turn on damage mode to assist with some mortal wounds. Oh, and the Black Coach and Bladegheists can also join in if they are a part of the Star and not needed for rear protection.

 

Okay. Chainghasts. Why Chainghasts? This is why.

You can zone in a unit of these at minimum range, 9" out, at the end of the movement phase. Not pictured: The Bladegheists who are, of course, in the perfect position to charge.

And here are the Bladegheists. No, they don't bunch up like this and fight in two ranks, I just wanted to grab a quick picture. The important part here is that there is more than enough room, even if wrapping around an enemy, to stay wholly within 12" for the buff.

It's generally better to use the Chainghasts for this partially because they are cheap, partially because they are not benefitting anyone other than the Bladeghests and so you are not losing out on anything when they are in the Underworlds, and partially because if you fail the charge with the Bladegheists you don't have a Spirit Torment hanging out by itself ready to be picked off. That being said, if you do opt to use a Sprit Torment like this, there's nothing wrong with that. For sure Captured Soul Energy and Deathless Sprits are worthy reasons to park a ST in reserve for a moment like this, or accompanying them around the board. Just mind movement distances all involved units are capable of, including running.

Not sure why this Kurdoss pic is here again. I can't get rid of it. I guess Kurdoss is just that angry...

Thank you so much for doing stuff like that!

[EnixLHQ]

7 hours ago, SirSalabean said:

Hi all I’m considering Nighthaunt as my next project and was wondering where do I start? I appreciate I’ve just missed the soul wars half however it seems most the range is fairly cheap due to the mortal realms magazine so I don’t mind.

thanks

What do you want to do? Narrative? Casual? Competitive? Facing a certain meta?

[SirSalabean]

6 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

What do you want to do? Narrative? Casual? Competitive? Facing a certain meta?

Not too sure I’d say casual maybe competitive one day. 

[Ranzou]

Yesterday I tried Sotek's Deathstar against Ossiarchs and obliterated them in 3 turns.

Yes, thier forces weren't ideal, but Kurdoss with all buffs ate 5 kavalos + Vokmortian. Next turn he caught the stone from catapult. Of course - zero taken away CPs.

Big blob of ghosts is a really fast and tough nut to crack.

Thanks for new expirience!

[dmorley21]

On 10/1/2021 at 4:58 PM, Liquidsteel said:

Current consensus is that a bodyguard shrug is not a ward in and of itself. They removed the bit about bodyguards not being able to ward and instead ruled that any roll where part of it is a ward counts as a ward.

The keyword is Negate. If part of the rule involves negating its a ward.

So Praetors are a ward, but Emerald Host or something like a Necromancer is not. 

Sadly, not consensus. I’ve had opponents tell me both ways. I’m also going to the Michigan GT this upcoming weekend and had it ruled that my Hexwraiths don’t get a Ward. 

[Dogmantra]

5 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Sadly, not consensus. I’ve had opponents tell me both ways. I’m also going to the Michigan GT this upcoming weekend and had it ruled that my Hexwraiths don’t get a Ward. 

They are wrong. A roll to move wounds to another unit without the possibility of negating them entirely is not a ward roll. 14.3 defines wards as "abilities [that] allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model". If it doesn't have the possibility of negating the wound then it is not a ward.

This is further clarified by the FAQ answers:

Quote

Q: Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to attempt to negate a wound or mortal wound, but that roll may have a different effect
depending on the score of the dice (as per, for example, the ‘Soul-forged Guardians’ ability on the Praetors warscroll). Are these abilities wards, and is the roll a ward roll?
A: Yes.

This answer explicitly calls out rolls that have other effects (moving wounds) in addition to negation. If all move-wounds abilities were wards, then it makes no sense to be this specific. The praetor effect is a ward because one of the possible outcomes is negation of the wound. The hexwraith effect is not because the only possible outcomes are that the wound is assigned to either the original target or the hexwraiths.

I believe that people saying you cannot get a ward after rolling to move the wounds are misunderstanding the other ward FAQ answer:

Quote

Q: If a player makes a successful dice roll to negate a wound or mortal wound, and this triggers an effect that forces a wound or mortal wound to be allocated to a different unit [...], can an attempt be made to negate that additional wound or mortal wound if an effect would allow a player to do so?
A: No. Wounds and mortal wounds allocated in this way cannot be negated.

This question is long, and the examples add length, allowing a reader to get lost and forget the critical initial clause. But in this case it is clear that you can only not negate wounds sent to another unit if they themselves were triggered by a wound being negated (e.g. Nagash sending MWs back on 6s on his ward roll). I believe that people reading this miss that the question is about specifically rolls to negate a wound that can also inflict new wounds, and instead see it as applying to all rolls that move wounds.

[EnixLHQ]

On 10/3/2021 at 12:31 AM, SirSalabean said:

Not too sure I’d say casual maybe competitive one day. 

I'd start with a guide, maybe even my own (link in my sig or throughout my post history) and start with the basics. We're pretty neat in that we can have a few basic heroes and troops that can combine in different ways.

36 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Sadly, not consensus. I’ve had opponents tell me both ways. I’m also going to the Michigan GT this upcoming weekend and had it ruled that my Hexwraiths don’t get a Ward. 

 

23 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

They are wrong. A roll to move wounds to another unit without the possibility of negating them entirely is not a ward roll. 14.3 defines wards as "abilities [that] allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model". If it doesn't have the possibility of negating the wound then it is not a ward.

This is further clarified by the FAQ answers:

This answer explicitly calls out rolls that have other effects (moving wounds) in addition to negation. If all move-wounds abilities were wards, then it makes no sense to be this specific. The praetor effect is a ward because one of the possible outcomes is negation of the wound. The hexwraith effect is not because the only possible outcomes are that the wound is assigned to either the original target or the hexwraiths.

I believe that people saying you cannot get a ward after rolling to move the wounds are misunderstanding the other ward FAQ answer:

This question is long, and the examples add length, allowing a reader to get lost and forget the critical initial clause. But in this case it is clear that you can only not negate wounds sent to another unit if they themselves were triggered by a wound being negated (e.g. Nagash sending MWs back on 6s on his ward roll). I believe that people reading this miss that the question is about specifically rolls to negate a wound that can also inflict new wounds, and instead see it as applying to all rolls that move wounds.

So, I spent some time doing some research on this and I came across something interesting. When the FAQ first hit, "bodyguard" was specifically a word used in the example cited in the document. But, if you go look now, that word and the whole paragraph surrounding it is gone. I can find plenty of reprints, but the official FAQ downloads themselves just don't have it anymore.

Without that paragraph a bodyguard wound reallocation is just moving the wound. Deathless still applies to the allocation. So Hexwaiths get a ward.

But, and this is always the case, the TO has the final say on what the rules are going to be. They can even decide what FAQs and revisions apply. If @dmorley21's TO is ruling that bodyguard abilities count as the one ward roll, then that's the unfortunate reality of the rule mess. Maybe a petition can fix it, but beyond that our opinion won't matter.

[dmorley21]

I tend to agree that Hexwraiths should get their Ward, and the TO thought the same until he noticed how similar the rule is to the Fyreslayer one that is specifically called out in the FAQ. There's differences, but it's my first 2 day event and I'm looking to have a good time and meet people - not ruffle any feathers. It is what it is, and doesn't really change my goal of going 2-3 and aspiration of going 3-2. I only run 2 units of 5 Hexes and they're literally just there as a wound pool for Olynder and to make my opponents think twice about going for Slay the Warlord, with the benefit of being fast enough to have utility if needed. 

Here's hoping for OIynder to get the Warsong Revenant / Yndrasta / Celestant Prime treatment and gain a 4+ ward (with an appropriate points increase) so that she can be used more freely without 300 points of bodyguard. 

[Btimmy]

Did Lady O not get the counts as a general rule? I for some reason thought she did somewhere. 

[dmorley21]

5 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

Did Lady O not get the counts as a general rule? I for some reason thought she did somewhere. 

She had it temporarily available via a battalion in BR: Be’Lakor. That went away. 

[Btimmy]

First list attempt for NH 3.0, haven't played them in a bit. Thoughts from people who have some games on them in this edition? 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Reikenor's Condemned
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Reikenor the Grimhailer (165)**
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (135)*
- Artefact: Corpse Candle
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Spirit Torment (115)**
- General
- Command Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (215)**
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spirit Drain
30 x Chainrasp Horde (285)*
- Reinforced x 2
20 x Chainrasp Horde (190)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Spirit Hosts (250)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (190)*
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (190)*
Black Coach (220)*
Chronomantic Cogs (45)
*Battle Regiment
**Command Entourage - Magnificent
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
Drops: 4
 

[Btimmy]

Quick and dirty battle rep. I was playing the list posted above. My friend was on a sylvaneth list with the warsong, treelord ancient, arch rev, the underworlds warband, 2x6 scythes, 2x5 tree revs, one unit of spite revs, umbral spellportal and spiteswarm hive. He was winterleaf with the once per battle fight twice with a unit in the hero phase. His list was built to uber buff one unit of scythes, create a wood for them to teleport to, and then make the 9" charge (w/ a +3 from spite swarm) and then murder something. All while the warsong stacked throne of vines in a corner and send AoE mortal wound novas through the portal. The mission was the new starstrike.

I outdropped him and made him go first. I put Lady O, 6 spirit hosts, 30 chainrasps and 10 blades in the ground, and screened out the rest of my army with the unit of 20 chain rasps. Because there was no objectives on the map, t1 was uneventful, he buffed a bit and then ran in place to get his tactic. On my turn I chose savage spearhead adn dropped the spirits, lady O and the blades in his territory attempting to threaten his flank.

Turn two the center objective landed on the left side of the board, where both of the majority of our armies where set up. I never won a priority roll until turn 5 so it was him going first. He teleported and charged his scythes into my screen, but didn't drop the arch rev to give them rerolls/+1 attack, or remember to use his exploding 6's from winter leaf. He also didn't use the fight twice artefact. This left my 20 man screen on 2 models after combat. My turn I heal them with RoTSH, the Black coach, and rolled a 3 on my 2d6 heal from the Guardian of souls. Ended with 8 total. The 8 retreated over the scythes (after giving them +6 move and +3 from pendant to snag the point.) Unit of 10 blades moved up to screen for the rest of my heros, and I command point pulled lady O back to be on this side of the map.

Turn three, the other objectives dropped, on his side it was lucky for me, it dropped right where I had dropped the spirit hosts and blade ghiests. On my side, they dropped dead center, roughly where his 6 scythes had just almost murdered my 20 block. He takes the turn, crashes his other unit of 6 into my 8 man chain rasps and murders them, and charges his original unit of 6 into my bladeghiests and kills them with the double activate, claiming two points. I drop the 30 man from the sky and put down cogs, then charge basically everything that I have left into that unit on the center objective in my territory (leaving a unit of spirit hosts and bladeghiests to hold the one in his territory. Black coach + lady O + riek + 30 chainrasps kill 4 hunters total, but puts roughly a million bodies on the point, so I control 2 at the end of the turn.

urn 4 rolls around, he realizes that he needed to drop his arch rev from the sky before start of turn 4 so it dies. He teleports his other unit of 6 to try to contest the objective held by my hosts and blades, and tries to move his treelord to kill my general. He fails both charges, and his 2 hunters on my point are still soul caged and grief stricken so I clean them up. My turn, I crash the spirit hosts into the 6 man of hunters to tie them up, send the coach to hold the point he left open, and spread out my 30 man block to make sure I can't lose my own point. Bladeghiests bubble the point behind the hosts so he cant get that point. Spirits kill 1 hunter and are killed down to a single wound in return. End of the turn I hold all objectives. I win the double and he can't win.
 

Overall i was reminded why I stopped playing NH awhile ago. The whole army just feels like smallball AoS, single casters or one double with no bonus, offensive output of a wet towel, i basically had to win by stand on points and stopping my opponent from doing the same. I killed a total of 3 units in his entire army, 1x5 tree rev, 1x5 spite revs, and the unit of 6 hunters he crashed in (which took my whole army and 2 entire turns to accomplish). Here's hoping a new book gives some sort of interesting changes to NH because while I won, I didn't find it particularly fun or interesting to play, so I will probably leave them on the shelf for awhile.

[dmorley21]

@Btimmy

Bummed to hear you didn’t have fun.
 

Nighthaunt, even at their best, are certainly a trading army where you focus on the scoring and objectives instead of raw damage. Definitely not the alpha strike force their lore makes them out to be. 

My hope is that a new book allows for both play styles.