AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Landohammer]

The Scriptor mechanic is cool. But as usual it will come down to cost and whether he has other abilities (ie wizard, aura, etc). Like if that is all he does and he is 100+ points then hard pass. 

NH character slots are suuuuuper crowded at the moment. 

However its hard to review him knowing a codex is incoming. I will say, after playing vs the new Deepkin book last night, they did a great job of making each of their heroes both useful and unique. I am hoping NH get the same treatment. 

[Darkrich]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:50 PM, dmorley21 said:

I've only played them once and had Nagash, but my recommendation would be to try to pin them or feed them screens to prevent them from scoring objectives. 

So after the tournament, I realize we played his rules wrong. He was new and I wasn't familiar enough. We read it as, blightkings roll a die for each model in the enemy unit within 3". Which murdered my hordes. Turns out you roll a die for each model in the blightking unit if within 3". Would have changed things dramatically.

And that scriptor mortis is garbage. Thematically useless.

[EnixLHQ]

He's a hero. So under current rules he'll give out Deathless Spirits. He's also a source from which commands can be given.

We don't know attack profile, wounds, save, additional abilities of which our heroes usually have two, or if Frightful Touch is part of the armament.

As of right now he'd be a hero that would need to be on the battlefield at the start of the game for maximum impact. He can't go into Underworlds if Sentenced is the ability you brought him for because we wouldn't be able to see an enemy hero from there. However, the ability has no range, so as long as you deploy him in line-of-sight to whatever hero you want to mark even if it's table edge to table edge, the ability is valid.

From turn 2 on, as long as this hero and the chosen enemy hero is alive, roll a die and hope to get under the current turn number. Do so, instant 2d6 mortals. Can't choose a new hero until the previous one is dead, and when you choose a new one the damage potential doesn't happen until the next turn.

At first blush, looks like a hero you'd park on an objective to get free damage on a high-profile enemy target. If he's cheap, he's instantly better than the Cairn Wraith or Tomb Banshee in most cases, unless you were looking for a throw-away hero.

But here's the interesting bit; it says that even if the game was going to end the ability can still fire. Meaning that when you go to tally up your end of game points, you roll one more time, and if that roll resulted in the death of the marked unit you would earn those points. The game ending would not prevent you from scoring on your opponent if that hero was worth points. In conjunction with the new Prime Hunters and Prime Targets mechanic (at least until our book comes out), that could net you up to an additional one to three points depending on the interaction. Seeing as how we often tend to lose games by that many points, this guy might be the reason you win. If that hero was the only monster slayed for you that round, that's another 1 point. If it secured a Grand Strategy win for you, that's more points. Your last Battle Tactic, another point.

How often this would make or break a game remains to be seen, but the potential is there and it's a sneaky one. And if you can hide this guy safely, it's also a highly likely one.

[Darkrich]

It's a hard sell to invest in a character that may do something by turn 4, but is still just as likely to do nothing. We don't know his full rules of course, but wouldn't a guardian of souls be better at this point. Deathless spirits can be given by any hero, and a guardian of souls gives +1 wound and is a caster. Is effective from turn 1 since, you know, you are getting blasted by longstrikes and eating dragons from turn 1. Waiting until turn 4 to do anything seems risky at the very least.

[dmorley21]

I think the new hero’s rule is really fun and will be great for PtG, narrative games, or casual games. Its damage spike is unlike anything NH have ever had, which is promising. 
 

I don’t think it’s reliable enough for tournaments at first blush, but that’s fine as long as there’s other stuff that is. I don’t think it’ll be a mainstay, but it’ll be a fun add from time to time. 

[EnixLHQ]

36 minutes ago, Darkrich said:

It's a hard sell to invest in a character that may do something by turn 4, but is still just as likely to do nothing. We don't know his full rules of course, but wouldn't a guardian of souls be better at this point. Deathless spirits can be given by any hero, and a guardian of souls gives +1 wound and is a caster. Is effective from turn 1 since, you know, you are getting blasted by longstrikes and eating dragons from turn 1. Waiting until turn 4 to do anything seems risky at the very least.

You wouldn't be waiting. Just like anything Nighthaunt, it's a gamble and it's more likely to pay off the more rolls you have, and this one increases later in the game. But saying it doesn't do anything until turn 4 is the same as saying our 4+ save doesn't do anything, Kurdoss' CP steal doesn't do anything, or that our WoT doesn't do anything. All are around the same probability when figuring in multiple chances at them.

What's fair to say is that this ability alone isn't enough to turn a game or be worth the investment of points as is. A possible 2d6 mortals is nice, and doing it more than once with ever-increasing reliability could be devastating against an enemy centerpiece. Even if it only fires once, the average of 6-8 MWs is great, but it'd need to fire more than once to be a game-changer, I think. I don't see that happening, especially with the one round cooldown mechanic built in, but it's a tool we didn't have before.

But, again, we don't know the rest of the kit. A second ability could be "spend a CP, roll again" or the unit is a caster with a unique spell that interacts with the ability.

I'd just like less "this is trash" response from the community right now. We're going to need some pretty clean spectacles for when the new book comes out so that we can form good strategies, and not spend time winging that we're not the next Deepkin "oops, all eels" meta.

27 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I think the new hero’s rule is really fun and will be great for PtG, narrative games, or casual games. Its damage spike is unlike anything NH have ever had, which is promising. 
 

I don’t think it’s reliable enough for tournaments at first blush, but that’s fine as long as there’s other stuff that is. I don’t think it’ll be a mainstay, but it’ll be a fun add from time to time. 

I'm holding out hope that this tease, like in good GW form, is actually the lesser of the abilities the hero has to offer. Won't get my hopes up too much, but it's just as likely that what's not revealed yet is more impactful or has better interactions with the faction than what's been revealed so far.

Good god I just want to be A ranked for once.

[Dogmantra]

The Scriptor Mortis already being relegated to "casual game only" status by so many players after seeing just one of its abilities with no other context is pretty wild. Like we have no idea how many points this model will be, how good its attacks will be, what other abilities it has, and what the rest of the new Nighthaunt book looks like.

And I think even with no context that the threat of the ability is already quite an interesting power.

[Darkrich]

We can only evaluate the rule that is given to us. It may have more rules, but it feels like this rule is the scriptors purpose. First, it's useless in any death matchup. If we are talking from a competitive point of view, I have to consider that the reason I brought this model may be wasted. Second, you always mathhammer on averages. More than likely, the first time you see mortals from the judged character is turn 4. Sure you could roll well, but the inverse is also true. You could literally fail his roll the entire game. As most games see lots of action turn 2 and turn 3 most fights are resolving, it feels bad to have it kick in after things are determined. 

Based on the model design, it appears like another support hero. In this case, I suspect 3-4 rend -1 and damage 2 attacks. Good but nothing to go crazy about. Maybe some piddly shooting as well. You're right of course, we don't know the full rules and he may slap with a bunch of rend -3 damage 3 attacks, but I doubt it. My guess is, he is also a 1 cast wizard. Hopefully that spell is great. Opinions can change of course as we learn more.  As of right now, this rule is lackluster.

[Leshoyadut]

While it's true that you may fail the roll, assuming you judge something turn one and roll for it every subsequent turn, you have a ~97% chance to get it off by the end of the game, assuming you're not tabled before the end of turn 5. That seems pretty reliable to go off, plus whatever else it may be able to provide to the army. As long as it's reasonably priced and this isn't all it does, this feels like a decent ability to me.

[Equinox]

There are so many unknowns at this point when it comes to the new book, that I will reserve judgement when it comes to the rules.  I wont be shocked if there is a new subfaction or ability/item that makes the death note better.  Personally, I don't care for the new model and feel the resources could have gone towards something different for Nighthaunts (new banshee, monster, or terrain).  Looking forward to learning more about the crossbow ghosts in the near future.

[Boggler]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'd just like less "this is trash" response from the community right now. 

I get it. We waited a long time for something. Anything.

The problem is that this is it. This what they gave us. This ability does nothing.

I was hoping the new book would do away with all the "if this, and this, and then this, but only if" garbage.⁸

If anyone can tell me the positives then I'll gladly listen.

Even if this guy had 8 3+ 3+ -2 rend D3 attacks this ability would still be garbage.

Armywide bodyguard rule?

We'll need it.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

25 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

While it's true that you may fail the roll, assuming you judge something turn one and roll for it every subsequent turn, you have a ~97% chance to get it off by the end of the game, assuming you're not tabled before the end of turn 5. That seems pretty reliable to go off, plus whatever else it may be able to provide to the army. As long as it's reasonably priced and this isn't all it does, this feels like a decent ability to me.

The big problem for me with this guy is that a lot of that 97% is contributed by turn 4 and 5, when it's the least impactful. That said, I think this guy is pretty fun. I might try to see if he has a role in a less mobile Soulblight list where his presence could incentivize the opponent to approach a Grave Guard or Zombie block.

[Boggler]

It's fun. For sure.

Another of many problems is why you'd want to wait until T4/5 to kill something. And what hero could possibly be a good target?

A Warchanter? 97% dead on T4/5. OK.

[lare2]

Initial thoughts: lush model, mediocre rule. I'll reserve full judgement until the book's out as you never know. 

[Leshoyadut]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The big problem for me with this guy is that a lot of that 97% is contributed by turn 4 and 5, when it's the least impactful. That said, I think this guy is pretty fun. I might try to see if he has a role in a less mobile Soulblight list where his presence could incentivize the opponent to approach a Grave Guard or Zombie block.

Oh, for sure, it's heavily backloaded. But I think it can help swing a close game in the final couple turns, which is useful. So like I said, as long as the rest of it is decent (second ability, good CA, or what have you) and is reasonably priced, I think it could have some use in an army.

Also, with it being so heavily backloaded, that means you could reasonably wait a turn or two to declare the target of it, leaving it off the field without sacrificing much of this particular ability.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Leshoyadut

[Boggler]

Interesting. You mean keep the Scriptor in reserves until turn 2/3 when you know more about the board state. Choose a target on T3/4. Hoping they are still in LOS. Be out of range of anything that can hurt you.

[dmorley21]

One guess: there will be a subfaction or an artefact that subtracts 1 from judgment rolls. 

[Neck-Romantic]

For all we know he could have a ranged attack or spell that allows him to re-roll or modify his judgement rolls if he causes wounds/slays enemy models. 

 

Definitely reserve judgement.

[Boggler]

I'm about to play another 3 game tourney with the same list I posted above. I'll probably make a report tomorrow.

Nighthaunt players are definitely in denial more than other factions. It's amazing how many people are trying to spin the Scriptor reveal into something positive.

We must have hope!

Remember the Mortality glass? That was a good rule.

[Bayul]

Do we all ignore that his ability is restricted to non-DEATH units? I can't imagine a tournament player will calculate the efficiency of the ability without taking into consideration that it will be completely useless against certain matchups. Casual players will probably won't touch it aswell if there's a lot of DEATH armies in their local meta.

So if Nighthaunt will be a strong army, the Scriptor Mortis will be a bad choice and if Nighthaunt will stay weak he'll a bad choice aswell because taking Nighthaunt will be a bad choice.

[dmorley21]

26 minutes ago, Bayul said:

Do we all ignore that his ability is restricted to non-DEATH units? I can't imagine a tournament player will calculate the efficiency of the ability without taking into consideration that it will be completely useless against certain matchups. Casual players will probably won't touch it aswell if there's a lot of DEATH armies in their local meta.

So if Nighthaunt will be a strong army, the Scriptor Mortis will be a bad choice and if Nighthaunt will stay weak he'll a bad choice aswell because taking Nighthaunt will be a bad choice.

I agree with this, though I think it’ll see a lot of casual play. Unlike, say the Lord Executioner, it has a fun ability with high damage spike/potential. Still don’t see it being a fixture of most lists, and that’s fine. NH have plenty of small heroes. Will be more interesting to see the other warscrolls in the dual box. 

[Boggler]

They should have made a Ghostapalooza...

Tomb Banshee, Cairn Wraith, Executioner, Spirit Torment, Guardian of Souls, Knight of Shrouds all for 200pts, and they drop all at once.

Throw in the Scriptor and make it 210 pts...

[Boggler]

I played another 3 games with my list today. Here are the batreps. It was a casual store tournament, so no lists were posted, and we didn’t use BCP. I did my best to remember the other lists.

Spoiler

Emerald Host
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (215)*
- General

- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Dreadblade Harrow (100)*
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (955)*
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Hexwraiths (150)*
5 x Hexwraiths (150)*
5 x Hexwraiths (150)*
10 x Chainrasp Horde (95)*
10 x Chainrasp Horde (95)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 955 / 400
Wounds: 78
Drops: 1

Let me say. AoS is in a good place. I have been to a few events recently and the atmosphere has been really good. I’m playing Nighthaunt, and seem to be the only one of about 30 players so far. Is there a good reason for this? Lots of people have been saying that my army looks super cool and they love the whole ghosts aesthetic. My army is painted good enough, but not pro and even still, they pop on the table and people love that.

There are a lot of new players joining the hobby. I chat them about the good times of the Summer of 2019 when doing mortals on 6’s was the hot ******. Shooting wasn’t so prevalent then and the good times were rollin…

Its been a long three years since our last book and my comment are intended to be objective. I wouldn't be playing Nighthaunt if I didn't think there was something still here!

Game One – Tectonic – Idoneth Deepkin – Mor’phan

Eidolon Wave Caster/Lothan/Soulrender

Turtle

30 Thrall, 3x10 Reavers

I must say. Idoneth seems to have gone from good to better to even better. They never had any point in time where they weren’t A+ tier and their new rules make them even better. Plus, the models are awesome, like super awesome. Too bad they're Order so I'll never play them.

The new book kept their old battle round abilities because I guess they aren’t OP and then added some allegiance abilities to the mix. Add in some beautiful synergy and you have a really cool army.

What was better was that my opponent had his army painted beautifully and seeing our game was really great. We have some viewers always comment on how cool the game board was. This is what the game is all about. Rolling dice, Moving your guys around. Doing stuff. Killing time, making jokes. Complaining about Covid... Etc.

We are both 1 drops. 1980 pts. I won the rolloff and deployed my castle middle right.

He put his castle behind his boats middle left, in a couple choke points. All heroes were well away from Portal/Dust range. Did I mention how cool the new Idoneth rules were yet? Did I mention the boats? Or what they do? Well, his castle is way better than my castle. Still, I felt I could block the choke points and keep him pinned in so I took first turn.

I chose Aggressive Exp and moved up. Nagash had mystic shield unbound and the Spirit Drain on the Leviadon did nothing. The 15” move on the Hex gave me a good spot. My Chainrasps fell behind because I rolled 2 1’s for their runs. The castle took the middle with decent enough space for the screens. One unit of Hex went in to the side of the Thralls and the other hit some Reavers. The Reavers did work. Its like 30 attacks hitting on 2’s from the Turtle. Which became 3’s but still meant I had 10 saves to make. Well… I didn’t! Two survived and then died in the combat. I killed 2 Reavers. The other Hex killed 3 Thrall. I guess doing mortals on 6’s back in 2019 was cool. Now its just a gimmick. I finished the turn with 6 pts and still felt good.

He chose Broken Ranks on the Hex and moved up what he could. The Thralls were tied and and the Reavers were free to move. This was bad. The turtle also got out and shot the Hex for BR with a monster freeing the Thrall to charge my Bodyguard Hex and wipe them out.

I needed priority to stand a chance here… Nope!

He took 2^nd and chose Bring it Down. With that and the shooting my whole army was dead. It was beautiful!

What a beautifully synergized army from a book that just came out. Lots of shooting, Ridiculous short range shooting. T2 run/charge shooting. +1 to hit bubble,, re-roll 1’s to hit bubble, D3+3 model regen

What did I have? Nagash and a bunch of underperforming scrolls from 2019!

We had some laughs after and talked about our armies. The Scriptor and what could have been done differently. Great opponent. We felt that my emphasis on going first made me fail to realize who was the aggressor here. I’d say that if I let his take first then he’d just move on to the objectives and then probably shoot everything he had into Nagash. He agreed and we tried to math out what damage had to be done to dent his force. In the end it wasn’t likely to end well for me. His castle was better than my castle today but his list is not unbeatable. Its strong but I think that puts the Idoneth is a good place. Not an OP place. (My IJ would have crushed him)

Well guys, Thanks for reading up to here. I’m going to post the rest tomorrow. Did I win a game? Am I ready to be a rare Nighthaunt 3-2 finisher at a 2 days event?

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Boggler said:

They should have made a Ghostapalooza...

Tomb Banshee, Cairn Wraith, Executioner, Spirit Torment, Guardian of Souls, Knight of Shrouds all for 200pts, and they drop all at once.

Throw in the Scriptor and make it 210 pts...

For all we know one of the factions might be a lesser multi-hero one. I think there's precedent somewhere.

 

35 minutes ago, Boggler said:

I’m playing Nighthaunt, and seem to be the only one of about 30 players so far. Is there a good reason for this? Lots of people have been saying that my army looks super cool and they love the whole ghosts aesthetic. My army is painted good enough, but not pro and even still, they pop on the table and people love that.

Nighthaunt has always been an aesthetically pleasing model line. Painters love them, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that they make up the majority of NH sales and have done so for a long while.

The reason you don't see them often on the table is their viability in a fight. There are numerous issues with NH. Ignoring all the opinions out there, the best players in the game just can't get us to the coveted 50% or better winrate that's required to be considered "competitive." We have a lot of tools, but right now it's not fully in our hands to win or lose a game, and that does not feel good to play.

We're all hoping the new book fixes everything.

[Neck-Romantic]

I love to paint and re-pose and kitbash... but I also enjoy playing the game.

And to actually enjoy playing I need to feel like I have a reasonable shot at winning, without having to know every last intimate detail of my opponents force balanced against my own before I even show up to the venue.

Even local tourney scene has become "you must do this vs that and that vs this or you lose" which is a bit of a shame. I havnt got a game in since before covid and feel a bit too out of touch to know which enemy model will singlehandedly table my army if it isnt countered.