AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Derek]

@vinnyt  so can’t pull off double turtles and everything else in a futhane list unfortunately everything is just a little to expensive (turtles need to drop like 20 points). But I have a list with the triple turtles the king a tidecaster and one shark.   Luckily for me the big waagh player doesn’t spam gore gruntas he seems to be leaning into bonesplittaz stuff or kruleboyz stuff, but sprinkles in the ironjawz.   And I outdrop him.  Super excited to get it out on the table.

[vinnyt]

Another day, another win for the feesh against a Fyreslayer army with 3 magmadroths, 2x10 berserkers, and some foot characters. 

I ran my nautilar list except swapped lotann for a soulrender to see if that might help prevent annoying chip damage against the reavers/thralls. Turns out that a Runefather and 20 hgb will murder 15 reavers no problem so didn't get to test it out. 

 

Big takeaways:

1) our shooting is incredible- turtle and 20 reavers deleted a runefather after he popped AoD on a different character. 

2) Nautilar Turtle and Blender king cannot be stopped and will murder whatever they touch. Turn 2 the king will be where you need him to be and the turtle just sort of lumbers around gunboating everything to death

3) Sharks are fantastic midgame threats. They shoot for a turn, move up and shoot/charge, or shoot, shoot, charge. We don't have enough models to have units not be contributing from turn 1 onwards. Thralls were kinda disappointing but honestly having 10 around is pretty much just objectively fine. 

4) We're a shooty army that fights, not a fighty army that shoots. 

5) 20 reavers is a helluva screen. People really don't wanna engage it, but it does feel bad losing 340 points of models when I could be losing only 260

 

Haven't tried the other enclaves yet because I'm having so much fun with nautilar so won't comment on them, but I feel super comfortable saying that the Blender King is a BIG deal and that the nautilar turtle slaps exactly as hard as I thought it would. Still trying to find the shooting sweet spot. Right now I'm running 40 reaver equivalents (1 harpoon gun is roughly 4 reavers worth of output, so 20 reavers, 3 sharks, and a turtle = 40 reqs), 

 

 

[Derek]

@vinnyt man you are getting me psyched to throw out my triple turtle list.  It’s gonna be so much fun. 

[13_rolls]

I can't help but be intrigued by Ionrach...
turn 1: 6 block of morsarr blast in and MW, do their charge damage. king can stay within 12" and do his thing.

turn 2: king uses ionrach special heroic action, eels can retreat 14", then run 17 (14 + 3) and charge (7) (from flood ride) , effectively, moving 24". But wait! Add in Surging Stream for +1 to charge/run, you're moving another 1 and increasing your charge odds like crazy. Meet up with the king and pop the high tide ability for whatever else is there. If you don't need the movement, grab Riptide ritual and drop D3 MW on a 4+ on your retreat out during turn 2. 

turn 3: we all know what happens on turn 3 if things didn't go poorly.

It feels like a way to fix a lot of the issues with Morrsarr, namely that they just poop out once they're in combat. This makes the all-in on turn 3 even more so. I need to try it out though.

[Drazhoath]

1 hour ago, 13_rolls said:

I can't help but be intrigued by Ionrach...
turn 1: 6 block of morsarr blast in and MW, do their charge damage. king can stay within 12" and do his thing.

turn 2: king uses ionrach special heroic action, eels can retreat 14", then run 17 (14 + 3) and charge (7) (from flood ride) , effectively, moving 24". But wait! Add in Surging Stream for +1 to charge/run, you're moving another 1 and increasing your charge odds like crazy. Meet up with the king and pop the high tide ability for whatever else is there. If you don't need the movement, grab Riptide ritual and drop D3 MW on a 4+ on your retreat out during turn 2. 

turn 3: we all know what happens on turn 3 if things didn't go poorly.

It feels like a way to fix a lot of the issues with Morrsarr, namely that they just poop out once they're in combat. This makes the all-in on turn 3 even more so. I need to try it out though.

Sounds pretty good! But turn 2 only works If the living enemy unit is almost dead and the Morsarr survive the counter attack on turn 1 (to example Blight Kings with a bunch of attacks).

[Derek]

Well you have at a minimum 5-6 mortal wounds if you roll enough 4 ups or 6’s going into whatever you’re hitting,  plus your 12 spear attacks at -2 rend on the charge if you position correctly for it and 18 eel attacks on top of that.  I do think you will be able to kill the vast majority of whatever 6 morsaar run into.  And depending on what else is in the list you can make sure they’re only saving on 6’s even if they save stack between your rend and the spell off the aspect of the sea.  And you can keep your eels alive with the turtle running around behind them for +1 to save and then all out defense so you’re sitting on a 2+ ignoring rend 1.  Seems solid to me.  I want to test them out in the future after I play the triple turtle list to death.  

Edited March 22, 2022 by Derek

[Derek]

I know it’s probably not the best list but I wanted to see how many sharks you can get in a list.  Total is 11 but you lose the king to do it but I feel like it works out to be ok.  
 

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Akhelian Pursuit
    - Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury

Isharann Tidecaster (150)
    - Artefacts: Rune of the Surging Gloomtide
    - Spells: Counter-current

BATTLELINE

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

ENDLESS SPELL

Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

TOTAL POINTS: (1970/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

[DocKeule]

15 minutes ago, Derek said:

Well you have at a minimum 5-6 mortal wounds if you roll enough 4 ups or 6’s going into whatever you’re hitting,  plus your 12 spear attacks at -2 rend on the charge if you position correctly for it and 18 eel attacks on top of that.

You have an average of about 6 MW. If you role poorly it could be nil. Also your charge-roll has to be good enough to have the six eels go in in a double-triangle to keep coherency. Otherwise only five will be able to attack at best since the spear now has only 1" reach.


I had a game yesterday trying to go all Namarti and it sucked:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADERS
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Bladed Polearm
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness

Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
- Artefact: Rune of the Surging Gloomtide
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)*
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

UNITS
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)**
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)**
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)**
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (500)
- Idoneth Deepkin Battleline (Enclave: Nautilar)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands

ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Artefact
TOTAL: 1985/2000 WOUNDS: 98
LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 5 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3 ALLIES: 0/400
REINFORCED UNITS: 1/4 DROPS: 10

I was playing against Sylvaneth and my opponent was pretty much camping as far away from me as he could killing me with MW through a spell portal and shooting. Barely anything made it into melee while he was summoning Dryads like crazy.

Might have been different against other lists but the lack of mobility also killed the whole fun of playing IDK for me. I am pretty sure I will not try that again.

[vinnyt]

5 hours ago, DocKeule said:

I had a game yesterday trying to go all Namarti and it sucked

Yeah, I think the all-namarti lists are a bit of a trap. They're just not fast enough to dictate ideal combats or tough enough to survive the attacks of what they want to kill. 

[Liquidsteel]

I'll be giving an Eel-focussed list a run out tonight, admittedly vs Dragons and Longstrikes but we'll see how it goes.

Still not sure which option is best in general for this kind of list, not specifically in to Stormcast, and really torn on what to take, below are some ideas showing different options.

Curious to see what people think overall.

1 Drop 3 Heroes

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Isharann Soulscryer (150)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
20 x Namarti Reavers (340)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 1
 

Here the Soulscryer could be a Tidecaster, depends how you feel about the Deepstrike. 20 Reavers provide a serious threat to any would-be chargers.

High Drops with Sea

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)**
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Armour of the Cythai
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (325)**
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)**

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)**
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)**

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 8
 

Dropping 10 Reavers and the Isharran for the Sea. You can make it 1 drop just by switching to Battle Regiment, or 2-4 drops by using Battle Regiment and 1-3 units in Hunters, mainly to avoid Eels getting stomped/roared.

2 heroes with Aetherwings and 4 Sharks

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108
Drops: 4
 

More units, less heroes. As they're not taken in a 20, the Reavers have been demoted to Thralls in order to add some Aetherwings as early objective grabbers and screens and the Thralls will give their lives for the cause also. 4 Sharks provide a solid shooting phase to threaten most units, I feel like 4 is the critical mass to be reliably killing important units and it's what I've been running in my initial lists (Ionrach and Nautilar so far).

Edited March 22, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Derek]

I think namarti heavy lists sound fun but you sacrifice as you guys have said a lot of mobility and need to maybe lose the king as well which isn’t easy to do since he’s amazing.   When I think of namarti heavy lists you need the thrall master and possibly a soul scryer to get up the board from reserves.  But I haven’t played any games with them yet as I don’t own them.   The warhammer weekly show had a graph showing thralls with everything else and thralls output was insane. 

[Derek]

@DocKeule  so I’m not sure how you wouldn’t make your charge with eels in ironrach you would set them to run and charge turn one if you want them to get up the board,  auto run them 6 so you’re 20 inches up the board and then have a base +2 to charge from flood tide and the musician with a reroll.  Now as soon as your opponent realizes what you can do of course he’s going to be deployed way back but if he has to deploy forward for some reason you reap the reward.  If you want to be sneaky about it take a battle mage from cities and get another +2 to run and charge off the spell.  So now those have a base +4 to charge and can reroll themselves because of the champion.  

[13_rolls]

14 minutes ago, Derek said:

@DocKeule  so I’m not sure how you wouldn’t make your charge with eels in ironrach you would set them to run and charge turn one if you want them to get up the board,  auto run them 6 so you’re 20 inches up the board and then have a base +2 to charge from flood tide and the musician with a reroll.  Now as soon as your opponent realizes what you can do of course he’s going to be deployed way back but if he has to deploy forward for some reason you reap the reward.  If you want to be sneaky about it take a battle mage from cities and get another +2 to run and charge off the spell.  So now those have a base +4 to charge and can reroll themselves because of the champion.  

Or take Lotann and grab the +1 to charge and run isharann ritual as an extra when you need it with fount of willpower

[DocKeule]

3 hours ago, vinnyt said:

Yeah, I think the all-namarti lists are a bit of a trap. They're just not fast enough to dictate ideal combats or tough enough to survive the attacks of what they want to kill. 

Agreed. Unfortunately that is probably the death knell for the Thrallmaster apart from some a casual game every now and then.
 

38 minutes ago, Derek said:

@DocKeule  so I’m not sure how you wouldn’t make your charge with eels in ironrach you would set them to run and charge turn one if you want them to get up the board,  auto run them 6 so you’re 20 inches up the board and then have a base +2 to charge from flood tide and the musician with a reroll.  Now as soon as your opponent realizes what you can do of course he’s going to be deployed way back but if he has to deploy forward for some reason you reap the reward.  If you want to be sneaky about it take a battle mage from cities and get another +2 to run and charge off the spell.  So now those have a base +4 to charge and can reroll themselves because of the champion.  

Is is not so much the question of making the charge but you still need a 4+ to cause a MW. On average you should get 3-4 MW out of six Morrsarr. A little better on bigger enemy units (especially since the rule doesn't say "unmodified 6" for the D3...at least yet). But with a bad roll you can easily stay below that.

[vinnyt]

7 hours ago, DocKeule said:

death knell for the Thrallmaste

I could maybe, MAYBE see some use for him with either a single fairly chunky unit of thralls or to prevent alpha strikes from erasing your reaver screens. That being said, I still think that the thrall horde build is kinda overrated. 

 

8 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

2 heroes with Aetherwings and 4 Sharks

I really really really am starting to think that deepkin is gonna be an army that wins off their shooting and then one or two surgical combats on turn 2 into 3. I don't particularly like the Sea and I REALLY don't like the Sea when he isn't the general. If he's not the gatling caster I'd much rather just have a tidecaster and more shooting. I do like the MSU morrsarr with sharks- gives you the opportunity to soften up targets with morrsarr before killing them with sharks. 

 

[DocKeule]

7 hours ago, vinnyt said:

I could maybe, MAYBE see some use for him with either a single fairly chunky unit of thralls or to prevent alpha strikes from erasing your reaver screens. That being said, I still think that the thrall horde build is kinda overrated. 

The thing is at 20 points more we get 10 extra Thralls and at 5 points more we could have a Tidecaster. 

The only way I see to redeem his points is to have him buff several units of Thralls at the same time. 

Well I might try another time to throw out the Reavers and maybe the turtle and bring some faster units. But I more drawn to cavalry-heavy builds still.



I have a tournament this Saturday with the following list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
The Burning Head (20)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 4

 I still have one Allopex from the "Fury..." box that I not yet decided to build or sell. I will probably paint it and would replace one of the Reaver units if I wanted to play shooty in the future. 

[Derek]

@DocKeule  the thrall master does buff multiple thrall units.  Just gotta be wholly within 12 inches of the thrall master 

[The World Tree]

4 minutes ago, Derek said:

@DocKeule  the thrall master does buff multiple thrall units.  Just gotta be wholly within 12 inches of the thrall master 

In practice that's incredibly difficult and restrictive.

[DocKeule]

7 minutes ago, Derek said:

@DocKeule  the thrall master does buff multiple thrall units.  Just gotta be wholly within 12 inches of the thrall master 

Indeed and that is the issue. Thralls (and Thrallmasters) have a very limited movement-range and you lose additional mobility and board control if you try to keep several units in the bubble (especially considering the charge). It is doable but you have to keep a good portion of your army in a circle with 24" diameter. 

[Sonnenspeer]

46 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

I have a tournament this Saturday with the following list

Maybe we meet each other in Oldenburg and have a mirror match. 😄

My List is a King, Volturnos, Storm Eidolon, Soulrender, two Sharks, 10 Rivers and the Turtle. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Sonnenspeer

[Liquidsteel]

9 hours ago, vinnyt said:

lly really really am starting to think that deepkin is gonna be an army that wins off their shooting and then one or two surgical combats on turn 2 into 3. I don't particularly like the Sea and I REALLY don't like the Sea when he isn't the general. If he's not the gatling caster I'd much rather just have a tidecaster and more shooting. I do like the MSU morrsarr with sharks- gives you the opportunity to soften up targets with morrsarr before killing them with sharks. 

 

Yes I agree, one of the first two lists I played when the book dropped was Turtle, 4 Sharks, 20 Reavers, 10 Thralls, King and Lotann. Sat back for 2 turns then engaged. I felt like it could do with 1 extra screening unit but the points aren't there, though I suppose could drop 1 Shark and play around with the points a bit. I did enjoy it though, nice to have options to sit back.

The Sea is a love/hate relationship, I love the model and want to use it (same with my Turtle) but I agree it's not amazing. If the combo goes off it's fantastic, but it does feel bad when fail your Tsunami for -1/2/3 save, especially if you teleported to achieve it. I feel it might have been better simply as a -1 to save aura, so at least you could attempt to cast it THEN decide if you are teleporting, and if not, it's a another layer to the castle.

I did manage to squeeze a win out vs Stormcast yesterday with the high drop + Sea list. He had 3 Dragons, 4 Fulminators, 6 Raptors and some chaff and a relictor. He made me go first and I sent a unit of 3 Morrsarr in to his Dragons after taking a few pot shots with the 2 Sharks, though only managed to kill one dragon after having Tsunami unbound. I did manage to survive a double turn, however, as my Sea with mystic shield and finest hour survived 2 full rounds of Raptor shooting and the following combat, then was slain to the wound in the following combat phase, allowing me the double 2 in to 3 and then held priority in to 4 to clean up.

We have a 2 day tournament this weekend and I'm not yet sure what I want to take, though I think I'll scale back the Morrsarr slightly in favour of more shooting, and drop the Sea for now.

[DocKeule]

25 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Maybe we meet each other in Oldenburg and have a mirror match. 😄

My List is a King, Volturnos, Storm Eidolon, Soulrender, two Sharks, 10 Rivers and the Turtle. 

I hope not. IDK vs. IDK is incredible boring with no one being able to really play out the strength of the army.

[Siorra]

I've got my first tournament since before Covid this weekend and my first time using Idoneth at one. Been limited to what I have painted that works in the new book and settled on this:

Spoiler

- Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin

  - Subfaction: Nautilar

  - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

  - Triumph: Indomitable

LEADERS

Isharann Tidecaster (150)*

  - General

  - Command Traits: Teachings of the Túrscoll

  - Spells: Counter-current

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (355)*

Akhelian King (250)*

  - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

  - Artefacts of Power: Armour of the Cythai

BATTLELINE

1 x Akhelian Leviadon (500)*

10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*

10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

OTHER

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*

CORE BATTALIONS

 - *Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: 1945/2000

I know it's not a meta list and honestly having the Eidolon and a Leviadon in the same list was viable 3 weeks ago and doesn't really work now, but it's what I've got to work with. The plan is to flip the tides and take second turn against melee armies and choose not to flip the tide against shooting lists and hope to null out one of their turns. My recent practise games felt like I ran out of steam by turn 3 so I'm hoping to capitalise on the king's ability turn 1 and high tide turn 2.

Win or lose at least most games will be quick!

[That Guy]

The new crossbow unit of the nighthaunt counters our low tide. even with ritual.

Edited March 23, 2022 by That Guy

[umpac]

35 minutes ago, That Guy said:

The new crossbow unit of the nighthaunt counters our ebb tide. even with ritual.

Do you mean low tide? They're 12" range anyway so not like they would care about the ritual. 2 Attacks a piece on 4+/4+/-1/1 is pretty terrible shooting, way worse than Reavers. Forgotten nightmares still apply as well. Unless they are dirt cheap or have crazy synergy with something else in the book I wouldn't be too worried about them...