AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Liquidsteel]

There's also Battle Tactics to consider; getting a decent selection including several pretty easy ones bumps up your ability to win games, and I think IDK got some great choices here.

If you can score your BT every round and complete your Grand Strategy, you're in a decent position as long as you didn't totally flop on objectives.

There's also the state of the meta to consider - lots of crazy shooting right now or in your face combat armies. The army is now even stronger against shooting thanks to the rituals, and the buffs to Harpoon Launchers mean you can rip through enemy ranged units in return, from relative safety.

Getting High Tide via the King means 3 rounds of ASF, which is pretty big against combat armies like Giants or Orruks, where you might need 2-3 units to take care of their threats, but would fail if they were allowed to strike back.

I guess I'm just trying to point out that not everything can be determined by pure maths and stats of a warscroll or whether you gained or lost certain traits.

[Kitsumy]

to add some fast numbers ( may be a bit off).

old shark against 4save had 3.4 at shotting and 7.52 in melee, so 10.9 dmg for 1 shark at range of king and eidolon being in fuethan.

 

new shark against 4 save do 2.3 shotting and 6.31 in mele, so 8.61. ( yes if u take fuethan and the unit of 3 1 of all amy could have 0.5 more bytes, but it issnt for every shark)

 

so against 4 armor:

old 10.9 dmg for 725 points

new 8.61 dmg for 770points

 

and this same % difference can be aplied to every akhelian mounted unit. do u get it? fully buffed units lost around 19% dmg, more if u use all atack that not stack with new king but did. with old. and got increased in points.

sure numbers will be better with lothan but he cant keep with mounted units , and auras ranged were nerfed hard too, so differences are higher in actual games since old auras were on more units.

 

call me crazy but a net decrease of 20% across the board is worse than new rituals and some sligthy better scrolls like morsar or king.

[DocKeule]

16 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Getting High Tide via the King means 3 rounds of ASF, which is pretty big against combat armies like Giants or Orruks, where you might need 2-3 units to take care of their threats, but would fail if they were allowed to strike back.

The effect is much smaller than you seem to think.

It is D3 units and it can only be used once per game in your charge phase. This is important because you would have the first activation of the combat phase any way. So in a third of all games this ability does nothing (apart from maybe give Namarti the ward if that ritual was chosen). On a 3-4 you get one extra activation before your opponent can hit back, on a 5-6 a second. Again: Nice but not at all reliable especially since you need to do it at the end of the charge phase when your units are already engaged. 

[Liquidsteel]

12 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

The effect is much smaller than you seem to think.

It is D3 units and it can only be used once per game in your charge phase. This is important because you would have the first activation of the combat phase any way. So in a third of all games this ability does nothing (apart from maybe give Namarti the ward if that ritual was chosen). On a 3-4 you get one extra activation before your opponent can hit back, on a 5-6 a second. Again: Nice but not at all reliable especially since you need to do it at the end of the charge phase when your units are already engaged. 

I don't think so. There are a lot of bully units like Gargants, maybe a Mawkrusha, that kind of thing, that if you put two units in to them but don't/can't kill them on your first activation, you straight up lose your second unit. If you only send in one unit, it dies anyway. You can put 3 in, but you're still definitely losing 1 and maybe you can't afford to lose any of them.

Plenty of times this can be turn 1 or 2 where that result can snowball one player either way. Even just having 2 units fight first (1 ASF and 1 regular) can be the difference.

[DocKeule]

Well you still need to roll high enough be be able to have two or three units fight first. That's all I am saying.

[Liquidsteel]

3 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Well you still need to roll high enough be be able to have two or three units fight first. That's all I am saying.

Sure, but even one unit means you get two activations.

[DocKeule]

12 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Sure, but even one unit means you get two activations.

No it does not. The unit that got "Lord of Tides" fights first and then your opponent gets the next pick. 

Edit: Even if you had two "fight first" units and your opponent had one you would have to alternate. (Core Rules 12.4)

Edited March 8, 2022 by DocKeule

[Liquidsteel]

9 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

No it does not. The unit that got "Lord of Tides" fights first and then your opponent gets the next pick. 

Edit: Even if you had two "fight first" units and your opponent had one you would have to alternate. (Core Rules 12.4)

No you fight first then move on to regular activations of which you also get first pick.

[Derek]

Checking the rules it just says units with asf just go before anything else happens,  then I’m assuming you would then get pick of the fight sequences if it’s your player turn.  

[Gingir]

4 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

No you fight first then move on to regular activations of which you also get first pick.

^Very much this^

[DocKeule]

Very much not. 

First there ist rule 12.0

Quote

In the combat phase, the players alternate picking a friendly unit to fight, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

The exception is that units that have a "fight first" ability can resolve all their attacks before any other unit can fight. But the rules state nowhere that the player who's turn it is automatically gets the first pick once the fight first" attacks are done.

There are some rules that allow you to immediately activate another unit (like "Smashing and Bashing" from the Ironjaws) but this is not the case here.

Edited March 8, 2022 by DocKeule

[Liquidsteel]

You've got this very wrong sorry.

[DocKeule]

What wording in the rules do you base your interpretation on? 


Any way: There will be a German TTS League starting soon and this is what I am going with:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Potion of Hateful Frenzy
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (195)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (165)*
- Retarius Net Launcher

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 4

This is pretty much a "classic" Akhelian. I thought about leaning more ton the Namatri side but I did not want to commit to that for several weeks just yet. I will try more infantry based at one day events and pick up games coming up though.

[vinnyt]

Sorry @DocKeule, but @Liquidsteel is correct. The way it works is that the "fight first phase" is basically a smaller combat phase where opponents alternate units with the "fight first" ability. When those are resolved, the regular combat phase occurs, with the priority-holding player (the player whose turn it is) choosing a unit to fight, then the opponent alternating. It may be a more ambiguous in the german translation but in the english version it's pretty clear.

The King is phenomenal because of this. Even rolling a 1 for the number of units effected means that the king gets to fight first (getting the bonus attacks for unstoppable fury if applicable), then your opponent gets to select a unit with that ability to activate. If they don't have one, then the regular combat phase occurs, with you holding priority. 

 

fight first phase: You go, opponent goes

Combat phase: You go, opponent goes

 

In this scenario:

Fight first phase: You go, opponent has no fight first

Combat phase: You go, opponent goes. 

 

[Liquidsteel]

Yep and the same with fight last also; you fully resolve all regular combats before moving on, with the active player getting the first pick.

On a related note, Bio-Shock Shell seems like a great artefact to again counter some big aggro armies; that bravery 8 Mawkrusha that wants to charge your Thralls with your Leviadon sitting behind needs to hope you don't roll a 9 on 3d6 or you will be hitting it with every unit in range before it gets to go.

Even Bravery 10 Kragnos has a good chance of being made to fight last.

There's some really nice options in the book overall.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Rhetoric]

5 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Very much not. 

First there ist rule 12.0

The exception is that units that have a "fight first" ability can resolve all their attacks before any other unit can fight. But the rules state nowhere that the player who's turn it is automatically gets the first pick once the fight first" attacks are done.

There are some rules that allow you to immediately activate another unit (like "Smashing and Bashing" from the Ironjaws) but this is not the case here.

Sorry homie, that is not how activations work.  

[That Guy]

@vinnyt 
Liking the lists you made buddy. Personally i'm not too much a fan of once per game artefacts, but they seem to become more common by the minute. List 1 just shows how much the turtles kick into the points we have. I think the list will have some trouble holding points. I do like to see that people are wanting to include the Eidolon of the Sea more since the update. The same goes for the generic king. I am of the opinion that the Eidolon of the Storm now has a more restricted role in which he probably only fits builds including Namarti Thralls and perhaps Morrsarr Guard. Perhaps in some cases it might be better to divide the unit of 20 reavers. I think it will be tough to protect them when they are such a juicy target to mow down. But let me know how it goes if you ever run such a list. List 2 I love. I still want to run a 2 thrallmaster build, but I really... value the tidecaster and king now as well. Maybe i'll try something out. In all honesty I feel in that list you should totally put the Scroll artefact on the Tidecaster in order to get a second boat up there. It's honestly just too good with namarti spam, to give up on. I obviously love list 3. Looks like you'll go for the early engage with strike firsts on turn 2, and perhaps alpha strike turn 1 with strike firsts. I personally didn't reverse tides but I could. You went with more sharks instead of an ally monster. It is an interesting choice, except if your opponent brings monsters, it might be tough to compete with having no monsters for yourself. In case of making the tidecaster become a monster, you can't use her full utility. I do like the inclusion of the shiver in order to put in some single net sharks. I do agree that running units of net sharks is not the way to go. You still kept the 1 drop by making the shark units 3 man squads. Normally I prefer 2 mans more because if you have 6 of them, you'll have 3 champions. Although when it comes to buffs, 3 man units are better I guess. Also playing around with the 3" coherency will be fun too with 3 shark units. As for list 4. I think this will be one of the popular builds. Having the battleline turtle, with the special monstrous action and also a combined force of strong units + the fact that you'll fully utilize your Leviadon. I'm likely to run a list like this some time and find out how it goes. Currently it's this type of list for Nautilar, Fuethan Shark + Ally Monster or perhaps one with a leviadon build and the Namarti heavy focused list with Dhom-Hain that i'm most interested in to try out. I will keep hoping for some point drops in the future. But I will play around with these builds. It's probably going to be a ton of fun. Or I get my cheeks clapped every game and realize how bad it is maybe! We'll see. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by That Guy

[DocKeule]

9 hours ago, vinnyt said:

Sorry @DocKeule, but @Liquidsteel is correct. The way it works is that the "fight first phase" is basically a smaller combat phase where opponents alternate units with the "fight first" ability. When those are resolved, the regular combat phase occurs, with the priority-holding player (the player whose turn it is) choosing a unit to fight, then the opponent alternating. It may be a more ambiguous in the german translation but in the english version it's pretty clear.

So again: What wording are you basing that interpretation on?

Nowhere in the later rules 12.0 is negated other that there might be models/units that must fight at the beginning of the combat phase or at the end of the combat phase. 

Also no wording that I can find states that there three different combat phases als your interpretation implies. It is always the combat phase - singular.

In your interpretation there would be extra phases be generated once "fight at the start" and/or "fight at the end" abilities would apply. 

Also it would mean that "fight last" could also let the player who has the initiative activate twice in a row. And again I don't the what wording that would be based on.

[woolf]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

So again: What wording are you basing that interpretation on?

Nowhere in the later rules 12.0 is negated other that there might be models/units that must fight at the beginning of the combat phase or at the end of the combat phase. 

Also no wording that I can find states that there three different combat phases als your interpretation implies. It is always the combat phase - singular.

In your interpretation there would be extra phases be generated once "fight at the start" and/or "fight at the end" abilities would apply. 

Also it would mean that "fight last" could also let the player who has the initiative activate twice in a row. And again I don't the what wording that would be based on.

 

[GrimDork]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

So again: What wording are you basing that interpretation on?

Nowhere in the later rules 12.0 is negated other that there might be models/units that must fight at the beginning of the combat phase or at the end of the combat phase. 

Also no wording that I can find states that there three different combat phases als your interpretation implies. It is always the combat phase - singular.

In your interpretation there would be extra phases be generated once "fight at the start" and/or "fight at the end" abilities would apply. 

Also it would mean that "fight last" could also let the player who has the initiative activate twice in a row. And again I don't the what wording that would be based on.

Looking at the 3.0 core rules you are right that the wording is not definitively clear on the timing of each section in the phase. Also, unfortunately the example given in the core rules doesn’t help clear up this situation. My understanding on how it works was the same as @Liquidsteel. 
Whilst nothing in the current rules makes this absolutely clear I do believe it to be the intention because when phase timing was clarified in AoS 2 this is how it worked then.

[woolf]

I would also interpret this as you first resolve first strike, then move to a sub-phase where priority player picks first. unfortunately their example doesn't make it explicit so you can always email the rules team and hope for FAQ

[DocKeule]

Exactly. There is nothing saying that the player who's turn it is starts in any (let's call it) sub-phase. but that both players fight alternately starting with the player who's turn it is and then go through "fight at the start" - "no special rules" - "fight last".

Unfortunately GW did not give the first player in their example a unit with neither of both effects. That would have answered the question (one way or the other).

[woolf]

also this: as per this faq things happen simultaneous and hence priority kicks in, ie all first strike units attack at "the same time" so player 1 puckd first. Then all normal units attack at same time so player 1 picks first again.

 

 

[Kenk]

An FAQ wouldn’t hurt, to stop this coming up again, but at no time have I seen it interpreted that way at any major events. You’re in for an up-hill battle if you want to argue it at a tournament.

[woolf]

eg Fyreslayers should have come across this I suppose so their players should know?