AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[That Guy]

8 hours ago, Beliman said:

3.0 only has a few models with CAs in their warscrolls (all others were removed), and all new battletomes have a lot less tables (artifacts, spells, etc...) and all their Abilities are completely simplified: 3 main abilities+1 subfaction ability (Nurgle seems to have the most "complex" ones...).

Maybe it will be diferent, but I suggest to lower your expectations.

Yeah… i do second this. But it will still streamline us with the rest of 3.0 and there will be some new highs and lows. A new book is always exciting. For now honestly i’m just going to wait for the book to drop. I’m done theory crafting till we have our new data. 😅

[Rhetoric]

10 hours ago, Beliman said:

3.0 only has a few models with CAs in their warscrolls (all others were removed), and all new battletomes have a lot less tables (artifacts, spells, etc...) and all their Abilities are completely simplified: 3 main abilities+1 subfaction ability (Nurgle seems to have the most "complex" ones...).

Maybe it will be diferent, but I suggest to lower your expectations.

Deepkin in general have very few CA’s on the scrolls.  Off the top of my head I think it’s just the Volty/King CA.

[DocKeule]

And the Tidecaster turning the tides. Until recently we could only ever use one of those in a game, now it is two CA once per game each max. 

We will see.

[Rhetoric]

8 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

And the Tidecaster turning the tides. Until recently we could only ever use one of those in a game, now it is two CA once per game each max. 

We will see.

The Wide Ethersea on the Tidecaster scroll isn’t a CA homie.  
 

I’m really looking forward to the new book and some new interesting additions, overall I think the original IDK book did hold up and there are some really really well written scrolls in the army to this day.  

[That Guy]

4 hours ago, DocKeule said:

And the Tidecaster turning the tides. Until recently we could only ever use one of those in a game, now it is two CA once per game each max. 

We will see.

I just hope the Tidecaster gets the general requirement removed for it and can just once per game do it no matter the situation. I don't see what it matters for the tidecaster to be a general. I also wish that the king/volturnos keep their CA and can use it more often, not only during high tide. These situational buffs are nice and fluffy, but the army has enough of it so far. I'd rather see some consistency in the rules.

[Sonnenspeer]

Turning the tide is nothing you do during your game, only at the start of the first battle round you can declare that the Tides of Death table will be reversed.

[That Guy]

6 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Turning the tide is nothing you do during your game, only at the start of the first battle round you can declare that the Tides of Death table will be reversed.

Yes, but only if your Tidecaster is your general… this is the point i’m trying to make. Why force us in taking the tidecaster as a general to do that? Just let the unit reverse the Tides at the start of the first battle round without it being our general. Just for picking a Tidecaster, we should be able to do it, not if we also take it as a general.

[Sonnenspeer]

Because everything comes with a cost. Which I think is a good way.

[That Guy]

The cost can be reflected in the points cost though. I don’t know. I guess it’s a matter of preference. To me it always felt strange to be forced to make a minor hero like that a general. I know it’s an Isharran council member, which might reflect its lore a bit, but for the other Isharrans we don’t have to do something similar in order to use their iconic abilities. We’ll see what happens once the new tome drops. A lot seems to get uniform streamlined and simplified in the new 3.0 books.

[DocKeule]

7 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Because everything comes with a cost. Which I think is a good way.

I would generally agree. But being able to use just one out of three abilities (which is not much to begin with) was a ****** move by GW. Other factions use multible abilities (command abilities and other warscroll abilities) per turn.

Plus having the Tidecaster as your general means we have to use Namarti as battleline and therefore have a slower army. That makes it even harder to have most units where you want them at high tide.

[Orbei]

Perhaps they will do something interesting with the isharaen rituals mechanic in the new book. Its easy to forget it's even a thing as is. 

[DocKeule]

A few thematic prayers would do it for me.

[That Guy]

I’m literally just thinking to get 3 boxes of fury of the deep more and keep all the deepkin. I wish THAT was our vanguard box. Just that half, maybe without thrallmaster since it’s new ofc and instead a tidecaster or something. It’s easy to just sell off the thrallmasters(already got 2) and fyreslayers i guess. The box is mad value.

[DocKeule]

You can save some money but only of you really want to go down the Namarti-raod and don't own next to any IDK infantry yet. 

If going Namarti-heavy will become a viable option remains to be seen. I am still a little suspicious.

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

You can save some money but only of you really want to go down the Namarti-raod and don't own next to any IDK infantry yet. 

If going Namarti-heavy will become a viable option remains to be seen. I am still a little suspicious.

Oh. So am I. There's too much questions in the air, but don't forget it also includes a juicy allopex per box. All in all I calculated you already get the price of the box with just the idoneth part. I indeed don't own a lot of Infantry yet. I was always more keen on the eels, and thralls being so terrible up till now didn't help. With their recent glow up and the thrallmaster on top of that, I do see them have a place. But ofc a lot will matter depending on how other characters change and how perhaps the Tides will be affected etc. There's so much factors that can still make things better or worse. So far it's a very gimmicky army and they seem to take many different gimmicks away in the 3.0 in favour of 1 overall gimmick, with some bonusses if you have a certain subfaction. But I also collect for the theme sometimes and not necessarily because something is massively competitive. Now there's limits of course in how bad something can be, but if something performs decent and i like the playstyle/look of the unit I sometimes prioritize it over the slightly more competitive choice. Blasphemy I know. I just feel it would be fun to namarti corps sometimes and play like a mini version of AoS Custodes who are made of glass. Thrallmaster Katahs go strong.

Edited February 4, 2022 by That Guy

[DocKeule]

The price is pretty fair. I think it is even below 50% of the normal retail price,

With this kit I am a 40 Thralls and 30 Reavers and I bought a second Thrallmaster on ebay. But I could not even run everything in an optimized list.

40 Thralls are 520 point
30 Reavers 510
Lotann 75
2 Thrallmasters 220
Eidolon of the Storm 330
Turtle 380

This would bring me up to 2035 so I would have to cut 10 Namarti already.

As for sharks I am not sure if I am even going to build the new one. I have four painted and at the current point cost I daubt that I will run more in the near future.

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, DocKeule said:

The price is pretty fair. I think it is even below 50% of the normal retail price,

With this kit I am a 40 Thralls and 30 Reavers and I bought a second Thrallmaster on ebay. But I could not even run everything in an optimized list.

40 Thralls are 520 point
30 Reavers 510
Lotann 75
2 Thrallmasters 220
Eidolon of the Storm 330
Turtle 380

This would bring me up to 2035 so I would have to cut 10 Namarti already.

As for sharks I am not sure if I am even going to build the new one. I have four painted and at the current point cost I daubt that I will run more in the near future.

Drop 10 Reavers, add 10 thralls and you'll have my Namarti Corps list 😆 -170 + 130  saves you 40p. You end up at 1995p.

[DocKeule]

Well I won't try to fix the problem by buying even more Namarti models 🤣

[JackStreicher]

22 hours ago, DocKeule said:

If going Namarti-heavy will become a viable option remains to be seen. I am still a little suspicious.

Same, they might still die and flee to easily

@DocKeule 30 thralls and 20 Reavers might be all you ever need

Edited February 5, 2022 by JackStreicher

[DocKeule]

30 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Same, they might still die and flee to easily

And they get stuck in the opponent's screen very easily. 

[That Guy]

Hey who knows maybe the murder eels will get a nice point drop or we can play with the ishlaen. Don’t forget the eidolon and leviadon both still buff eels and our cute little thrallmasters are Akhelian. Maybe we are sleeping on adding eels. Let’s say we go with 2 eels units:

Spoiler

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Indomitable

LEADER
Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Born From Agony
Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (330)*
    - Artefacts: Cloud of Midnight
Lotann (75)*

BATTLELINE
2 x Namarti Thralls (390)*
1 x Namarti Reavers (340)*
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)*
Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*

BEHEMOTH
Akhelian Leviadon (380)*

TERRAIN
Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

CORE BATTALIONS:
*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (1975/2000)

A nice one drop 25p left with current points. You could drop the Morsarr for a second Ishlaen eel unit and have 65p left. At that point you could consider an arcane tome with the lifeswarm with perhaps master of magic.

This list gives us a nice 1 drop, you’re still able to split up the thrall group once more if you like. It gives us a lot of battleline, making it easier to get hold the line perhaps. Although also opening up more broken ranks opportunities for the opponent. The eels can zoom for objectives. Hit in flanks where it hurts, while the namarti can conquer the middle perhaps. Eels are able to zoom over things. We have a lot of useful tools here and spread power…. You could even take 1 shark instead of a second eel squad, but in this case i think it’s a bad choice. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by That Guy

[That Guy]

You know what could be funny too.. some rambo guerilla warfare deepstriking a thrallmaster and thralls with a Soulscryer or maybe even some thralls and reavers. 😆

[DocKeule]

Fyreslayers got their first peek into the new battletome today. So the books will probably be announced for pre-order this sunday or next sunday.

[Clan's Cynic]

12 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Fyreslayers got their first peek into the new battletome today. So the books will probably be announced for pre-order this sunday or next sunday.

I wouldn't count on this weekend with the Black Library Celebration stuff.

Be a nice surprise, but next week seems more likely.

[DocKeule]

Got my feet wet a little with a more Namarti focused build at a tournament today. Can't say that it went too well though.

My list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
Enclave: Dhom-Hain
Grand Strategy: Beast Master
Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (330)*
- General
- Command Trait: Born From Agony
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (75)*

Battleline
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)** - Razorshell Harpoon - Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)*

Behemoths Akhelian Leviadon (380)*
- Mount Trait: Ancient

Endless Spells & Invocations
The Burning Head (20)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
Drops: 4

First match was against SCE and it went OK. But I had a hard time killing anything (between cover, mystic shield and allout defense he had a 2+ save most of the time). And I took a lot of mortal wounds. In The end I lost 25:18 because auf missing one tactic, my strategy, having to monster to kill. Thralls did next to nothing.

Second Match was against Gravelords with Nagash and Manfred. I threw the towel by the end of round 3. Again Thralls did very little. I tried to go to Nagash but the war to little space for the sharks, Eidolon and turtle so Stormy did not go in at first and Nagash healed as much as I was doing damage.

Third match against Orruks with two Mawcrushers and pigriders. Here the Thralls did a good job killing a lot of pigs. I made a huge mistake charging the Eidolon into one of the Mawcrushers where he did like three wounds and was whiped out. Buteven if I would have still had him I don't think the outcome would have been that much different. I was tabled at the end of the fourt MWs just on the montrous rampage. And their speed even beats us. 


Oh well...
Thralls can do something but you desperately need them to strike first (apart from getting into the right engagement). If they don't they are pretty much doomed. So unless it is high tide you don't really want more than one Thrall unit in melee. 

Eidolon of the Storm once again war a great support hero but other than that in my experience he just sucks and I had that happen to me again and again. His stats look good on paper but again an HQ unit be barely does a few wounds. I do consider swapping him for another unit of two sharks (especially with the new shooting profile).

At least running Dhom Hain Lotann was pretty redundant. I could re-roll 1s to hit on the charge any way and (again) if the Thralls didn't charge and attack first there was not much left to hit with. Also keeping several units in his 12" bubble isn't easy  especially if a unit charges). 
You could try to build a Namarti glass-deathstar but that would be very stationary and I guess you would burn through those Namarti in few turns. So meh.

With a mixed list like that ideally I would want to stall the opponent with the Ishlaen and pin them down, have the Thralls charge in and delete the target and then repeat. Problem is the Thralls often won't reach the units they would want to fight.


Well no announcements for the battletome to go into pre-order on saturday. Next event I am going to attend will be in six weeks. Maybe until then we will know more. My instinct right now is to go back to mainly unsing Akhelians again.