AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Rebluff]

26 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

That's more or less what the consensus in my local club is.  The first line makes the rest meaningless, since any case that would result in the allocation of more than 3 wounds would violate the first line (which is, as of currently, clearly rules text and not itself fluff).  

And if 12 wounds to Moraithi-Khaine kills her, in competitive play she's DOA due to the ability of a lot of scary armies being able to drop 12-15 mortals on her reliably via Longstrikes, Sentinels, dragon breath etc.  Essentially, its unlikely you can dodge some matchup that just auto-kills her and reduces your army by a third (and takes core interactions with it).  

Essentially, it needs FAQ'd and if Morathi-Khaine is intended to be a weak point, her cost needs to be dialed back to account for it.

Technically only 9 too because you can still do the 3 to Morathi-Khaine first. If that's the way the rules intended, the only way you don't lose Morathi by the top of turn 2 is if your opponent has literally 0 Magic or Shooting.

[Mutton]

Do you guys think the Shrine is worth it? Don't know if its abilities really justify the cost when you could just take a regular Medusa. It does give her a little more protection from ranged firepower. Though the regular cauldron is so good now and Zanthar Kai gives battleline snakes automatically, so I feel like you just take that instead of any Medusas.

[Frowny]

How are people feeling about cauldrons now? The always on avatars actually seems to make them pretty killy? Put them with some shadow stalkers for a 3+ save screen might be interesting.

[KrispyXIV]

18 minutes ago, Frowny said:

How are people feeling about cauldrons now? The always on avatars actually seems to make them pretty killy? Put them with some shadow stalkers for a 3+ save screen might be interesting.

They're generally a little killier, and we have other units that are generally a little tougher to make better use of the +1 save from Bloodshield.  They're also praying at +1 by default as well.

I always like running them, and now moreso than ever.

[Jaskier]

29 minutes ago, Frowny said:

How are people feeling about cauldrons now? The always on avatars actually seems to make them pretty killy? Put them with some shadow stalkers for a 3+ save screen might be interesting.

The Slaughter Queen on Cauldron looks like a near auto-take for my lists because of how killy it is on top of having a 2+ strike first prayer. It's gonna be nasty combo-charging with other stuff to pile on the pain before any reprisal. 

It's important to note that bucklers now change the save characteristic instead of giving +1 to saves, meaning Witches/Sisters with bucklers near a Cauldron now get a 4+ save! 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Jaskier

[Rebluff]

So wait....witch aelves only get +1 to wound from TOTEMS now? Wow...they really worked hard to make sure we'd be doing Morathi 15 snakes for another edition. There's basically no redeeming features for SoS or WE compared to Blood Stalkers or upgraded Blood Sisters.

 

Also, I'm reading goonhammer's review and it seems like the guy didn't even look at the last battletome? Like, bloodrites haven't let BloodStalkers reroll ones for a LONG time.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rebluff

[KrispyXIV]

3 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

So wait....witch aelves only get +1 to wound from TOTEMS now? Wow...they really worked hard to make sure we'd be doing Morathi 15 snakes for another edition. There's basically no redeeming features for SoS or WE compared to Blood Stalkers or upgraded Blood Sisters.

I mean, that they kept +1 to wound on scroll at all surprised me considering having access to it from blood rites and having access to 'wound on a 3+' from gladiatrixes.  It seems like a change intended to keep a single gladiatrix from taking them from 4+ to wound to 2+ all on its own... which is fine, I guess?

Witches are still, relatively speaking, our cheapest bodies - and can be set up to be potentially painful to slog through with bucklers, since under a cauldron (which gives them that +1 to wound) they're savings on 4's, reflecting Mortals on 6's, etc.

There's also the "Rend -2 on charging" witches build that will put out a silly number of rend 2 attacks on a charge, and if you manage to get mindrazor in there they could be dealing mindblowing (ahem) damage at potentially rend 3.

And Gladiatrixes to support that are reasonably cheap for 3E heroes.  

[Rebluff]

3 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

I mean, that they kept +1 to wound on scroll at all surprised me considering having access to it from blood rites and having access to 'wound on a 3+' from gladiatrixes.  It seems like a change intended to keep a single gladiatrix from taking them from 4+ to wound to 2+ all on its own... which is fine, I guess?

Witches are still, relatively speaking, our cheapest bodies - and can be set up to be potentially painful to slog through with bucklers, since under a cauldron (which gives them that +1 to wound) they're savings on 4's, reflecting Mortals on 6's, etc.

There's also the "Rend -2 on charging" witches build that will put out a silly number of rend 2 attacks on a charge, and if you manage to get mindrazor in there they could be dealing mindblowing (ahem) damage at potentially rend 3.

And Gladiatrixes to support that are reasonably cheap for 3E heroes.  

thought the gladiatrix boxset showed they lost the reflect on shields?

[KrispyXIV]

6 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

thought the gladiatrix boxset showed they lost the reflect on shields?

34:14 on the GMG Reviews video on Youtube shows Bladed Bucklers as still being there.

The narrator incorrectly stats they're unchanged.  The image clearly shows the updates.

The Arena of Shades box also had bucklers as +1 save instead of 5+ characteristic, which is clearly updated.

[Rebluff]

52 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

34:14 on the GMG Reviews video on Youtube shows Bladed Bucklers as still being there.

The narrator incorrectly stats they're unchanged.  The image clearly shows the updates.

The Arena of Shades box also had bucklers as +1 save instead of 5+ characteristic, which is clearly updated.

sweet!

Looking through the book...why do they want us to be so bad into shooting armies? Our only protection in our opponent's shooting phase is the Cauldron aura. Are events running a lot more line of sight block terrain now? Are they gearing up to add Obscuring?

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rebluff

[Rebluff]

Sooo...why did the get rid of the -1 to hits, the mortal wounds on 6s AND increase the cost of shadowstalkers 30pts?

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rebluff

[Nasrod]

21 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

Sooo...why did the get rid of the -1 to hits, the mortal wounds on 6s AND increase the cost of shadowstalkers 30pts?

Because they are now a 4+ base save. All out defense putting them to 3+ is pretty crazy, considering they can teleport onto any objective and be sticky as all get out to enemy ranged, and the opponent has to get through an unleash hell to charge them.

I'm optimistic for them. 

[Underworld40k]

1 hour ago, Rebluff said:

sweet!

Looking through the book...why do they want us to be so bad into shooting armies? Our only protection in our opponent's shooting phase is the Cauldron aura. Are events running a lot more line of sight block terrain now? Are they gearing up to add Obscuring?

Lots of reference to overgrown as a scenery trait (leaked allarielle has it) which used to be blocks LOS in 2nd ed so i guess its coming in some form. Hopefully they will just recycle symbols or it will be a separate effect as i dont want to have to carry another set of tokens/Dice for another scenery table! 

[Underworld40k]

5 hours ago, Rebluff said:

So wait....witch aelves only get +1 to wound from TOTEMS now? Wow...they really worked hard to make sure we'd be doing Morathi 15 snakes for another edition. There's basically no redeeming features for SoS or WE compared to Blood Stalkers or upgraded Blood Sisters.

 

Also, I'm reading goonhammer's review and it seems like the guy didn't even look at the last battletome? Like, bloodrites haven't let BloodStalkers reroll ones for a LONG time.

Will see, the battle tactics seem to heavily incentivise witch elves and sisters. I can see them having legs in Draich ganeth where you can be looking at rend 2 elves (3 with mind razor) and Zealous orator will love rallying 30 lady blobs - with shields and a cauldron they are getting +1 save and +1 wound. Not saying they will usurp bows or choppy snakes but it seems early to call them DOA.

[Underworld40k]

8 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

That's more or less what the consensus in my local club is.  The first line makes the rest meaningless, since any case that would result in the allocation of more than 3 wounds would violate the first line (which is, as of currently, clearly rules text and not itself fluff).  

And if 12 wounds to Moraithi-Khaine kills her, in competitive play she's DOA due to the ability of a lot of scary armies being able to drop 12-15 mortals on her reliably via Longstrikes, Sentinels, dragon breath etc.  Essentially, its unlikely you can dodge some matchup that just auto-kills her and reduces your army by a third (and takes core interactions with it).  

Essentially, it needs FAQ'd and if Morathi-Khaine is intended to be a weak point, her cost needs to be dialed back to account for it.

Fully agree on all of the above. I think a lot of people are getting overly excited by the, admittedly wired, unneeded and silly, change in the later wording of the rule. Front and centre is any wounds allocated to morathi are then allocated to the Shadow Queen and cant be negated. First thing these says Shadow Queen can only be allocated 3 per turn. They are not negated - it just cant have more than 3 (which i fully understand negates them from a language semantics point of view). 

Likewise if this is actually intended she is going on a lot of shelves immediately. 

[Rebluff]

3 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Because they are now a 4+ base save. All out defense putting them to 3+ is pretty crazy, considering they can teleport onto any objective and be sticky as all get out to enemy ranged, and the opponent has to get through an unleash hell to charge them.

I'm optimistic for them. 

11 wounds at 3+ isn't super hard to kill and their shooting is completely irrelevant without the Mortal wound on 6s ability.

I think they still do what they've always done (act as a screen early, tp on objectives if they survive) I just don't see anything here that makes me think 'oh yea, 120 was way too cheap. better bump the 30pts)

[KrispyXIV]

8 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

11 wounds at 3+ isn't super hard to kill and their shooting is completely irrelevant without the Mortal wound on 6s ability.

I think they still do what they've always done (act as a screen early, tp on objectives if they survive) I just don't see anything here that makes me think 'oh yea, 120 was way too cheap. better bump the 30pts)

Agree to disagree there, I guess.  

Given the current standard for 10 wounds on a 4+ - stormvermin at 130? - shadowstalkers seem pretty justifiable at 150, especially given all the synergies that DoK offers (6++, blood rites, easy buffs, etc) and the enhanced output the unit leader brings. 

Were paying maybe 10-20 points for the teleport on top of the Statline, which feels... pretty solid.  

Edited May 15, 2022 by KrispyXIV

[Morathi is my Goddess]

Yeah, too expensive for a screen, and if you want a teleport unit now you can ally in cheap tree revenants. I love the models and will use them in casual games, but they're no longer priced for competitive play.

[Rebluff]

4 hours ago, Underworld40k said:

Will see, the battle tactics seem to heavily incentivise witch elves and sisters. I can see them having legs in Draich ganeth where you can be looking at rend 2 elves (3 with mind razor) and Zealous orator will love rallying 30 lady blobs - with shields and a cauldron they are getting +1 save and +1 wound. Not saying they will usurp bows or choppy snakes but it seems early to call them DOA.

Yunno, It's not related to anything about the overall efficacy of the book, but I can't even remember the last time I successfully cast Mindrazor. Maybe that's why I don't rate it very highly?

[Rebluff]

So, my first playtesting is going to be focused on what I believe are the 2 archetypes that have some legs in this book.

1. Morathi 15 Bow Snakes: As long as Morathi can't suddenly be insta-gibbed, she's still great. Bowsnakes are still great.

Hagg Nar Battle Regiment (2 Drop)

Morathi

Hag Queen (Blood Sigil, Sacrement, Blessing)

Ironscale (Zealous Orator) 

15 Blood Stalkers

10 Blood Sisters

5 Blood Sisters

2. Cobra Kai Snake Pit. (5++ a turn early is still probably better but this is the one is the one that has the most potential)

Zainthar Kai BR (3 drop, witch aelves drop separate)

Hagg Cauldron (Zealous Orator, Blessing) 

Ironscale 

Medusa (Mindrazor) Easy cut if you want more objective gabbers.

10 Witch Aelves with Bucklers

10 Witch Aelves with Bucklers 

10 Blood Stalkers

15 Blood Sisters

10 Blood Sisters

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

What's funny about this one is that the Heartrenders and Witch Aelves could be 1 wound per unit with damage 0 attacks and it would change nothing about the list. The witch aelves can get 3VP off of your turn 2 or 3 Battle Tactic(provided you just hide them on a board edge and run straight forward) relatively easily and the Heartrenders guarantee 1 VP on whatever turn you were most likely to miss out on a tactic. If your opponent ignores the witch aelves, you can suicide them off turn 3-5 for an additional 2 VP off the other battle tactic.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Rebluff

[Maogrim]

But imagine highlighting all those scales though. Morathi's stalker squad alone should amount to approximately 5.041.789 scales I think. 

Btw: does any of you know whether there's substantial new lore and art in the book? 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Maogrim

[Frowny]

Something like

Slaughter queen (or hag) on cauldron

9x shadow stalkers

30x witch elves /w swords or bucklers

Seems like an interesting core. 3+ save screen to teleport in and block the midfield, then you can counterpunch with the super buffed witch elves after with all the buffs. If they get the double, and get into your witch elves you can probably still survive and then use the hero phase fight CP to clear them out and still hits a new target. The cauldron itself is still there and is itself quitr killy. And once your screen mostly crumples, the last model can go be annoying tping to objectives.

Quite a few points but a lot of different utility

[Underworld40k]

As one of the people who will have 90 witch elves and 40 something sisters of slaughter what's the general consensus on bucklers v 2x blades on witch elves? The bucklers keeping (for the moment) the 6+ mortal makes them very tempting given the change of save to a 5+ which with bloodshield and all out defence can keep them at a respectable 4+ v rend 1 so seem the obvious pick for bigger units of the ladies but the extra attack seems like it will really benefit the rend from gladiatrix and the sub faction pick.

Is it leaning to smaller units with 2x daggers and big units with shields or is one just objectively better than the other? 

[Rebluff]

16 hours ago, Maogrim said:

But imagine highlighting all those scales though. Morathi's stalker squad alone should amount to approximately 5.041.789 scales I think. 

Btw: does any of you know whether there's substantial new lore and art in the book? 

What's a highlight?

[Rebluff]

8 hours ago, Underworld40k said:

As one of the people who will have 90 witch elves and 40 something sisters of slaughter what's the general consensus on bucklers v 2x blades on witch elves? The bucklers keeping (for the moment) the 6+ mortal makes them very tempting given the change of save to a 5+ which with bloodshield and all out defence can keep them at a respectable 4+ v rend 1 so seem the obvious pick for bigger units of the ladies but the extra attack seems like it will really benefit the rend from gladiatrix and the sub faction pick.

Is it leaning to smaller units with 2x daggers and big units with shields or is one just objectively better than the other? 

Personally, with the 5+ being universal now, I think the  bucklers are going to be better in 90% of situations.

The one exception is if you set it up so you have the 5++ on one unit in turn 3 with Blessing. Then you could have a 30 girl double dagger witch aelf squad that mostly stays behind to babysit the cauldron. Use the rest of the army aggressively until you get Sacrement+Blessing up.