AoS3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[woolf]

1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:

Yeah I'm getting the same impression with my tests so far. Bounty Hunters just wreck Gutrippaz. Before they used to last some attacks at least, but every game I got on the new GHB they just melt once a bounty hunter gets near them. The visibility effect of grinning blades is good, but it it be all or nothing in the matches I played (or it really do work or it changes nothing cause the opponent don't have long range shooting/spells). I'm not sure yet it is worth the tax of having to take 2x Gutrippaz for the battleline.

I'm in the same camp as u, I think unless we are in heavy shooting meta (which I don't think will be dominating under this GHB), I believe we are better off with min GVs in form of boltboyz and let the enemy BH overkill them (still pretty cheap after all). then counterpunch with breakabosses, I'd probably rather go low drop than waste drops on BH since we anyways have no real good unit to place in that battallion

[Ganigumo]

The issue with not playing grinnin blades and going big yellers is that you nearly auto-lose to any kind of long range shooting, since boltboyz are so fragile, so you're basically just hoping you don't go up against it.

[Vasshpit]

Has anyone run 3 beast skewers alongside 6 x msu of boltboys? Results?

Im going heavy on big yellers and this will be the backbone to my list. I'm still fleshing out the rest of list. 

[Arzalyn]

38 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The issue with not playing grinnin blades and going big yellers is that you nearly auto-lose to any kind of long range shooting, since boltboyz are so fragile, so you're basically just hoping you don't go up against it.

Yeah, that is a problem. We gonna need to see how prevalent shooting will still be in this GHB. Covered in Mud and Pebble could help a little, but can be pretty unreliable.

Honestly I getting tired of trying to make our tome work. It looks so out o place with the other 3rd edition tomes and in both GHBs so far it feels we are punished/left out of what that season promotes. I just hope we get more balance changes in the next update because I don't fell the changes to Grinning blades were enough.

[woolf]

50 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The issue with not playing grinnin blades and going big yellers is that you nearly auto-lose to any kind of long range shooting, since boltboyz are so fragile, so you're basically just hoping you don't go up against it.

fully agree, it's basically hoping there won't be too much shooting, but I feel that is probably an ok bet as the new rules and to some degree tomes seem to promote melee a bit more. you will likely not go 5-0 with our book anyways so probably strongest strategy is to lean in heavy and autolose 1-2 games but maximise chance of winning the others. and with some luck in matchups maybe push a bit further too

[Holy_Diver]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:32 PM, Ganigumo said:

The issue with not playing grinnin blades and going big yellers is that you nearly auto-lose to any kind of long range shooting, since boltboyz are so fragile, so you're basically just hoping you don't go up against it.

I prefer that kind of problem to the tax of 2x10 Gutrippaz, that do nearly nothing. 
Yeah with no point adjustment this allegiance is still very tricky to play and win, but we have good tools to use: strong magic (most of the casting is 7, but Pebble/Incarnate can help), a good grand strategy (Waagh!), ranged mortal wound output and non GV cheap screens (grots). We can also consider Kragnos, but I played it only with SoB.

[Ganigumo]

On 7/23/2022 at 7:17 AM, Holy_Diver said:

I prefer that kind of problem to the tax of 2x10 Gutrippaz, that do nearly nothing. 
Yeah with no point adjustment this allegiance is still very tricky to play and win, but we have good tools to use: strong magic (most of the casting is 7, but Pebble/Incarnate can help), a good grand strategy (Waagh!), ranged mortal wound output and non GV cheap screens (grots). We can also consider Kragnos, but I played it only with SoB.

2x10 gutrippaz can be very expensive screens, a unit of 20 can do work if buffed up, but is very squishy with bounty hunters.

Big yellerz doesn't interest me that much because I hate playing 70/30 strats.

Our spells are fantastic, but our magic is really bad. We have no casting bonuses in book but the swampcalla shaman's poison is nearly always better than any of our spells, and doesn't need a roll to succeed so why would we bother casting with them in most cases?

For reference a spell on a 7 with +0 has a 57.83% chance of success. The opponent then has a 41.16% chance to unbind it (on a +0). Giving us an overall chance of 34.02% of succeeding. 

Gobsprakk can't bind to krondspine either, which is unfortunate plus he has no innate bonuses to cast, so he's just hoping to roll 7s unless we bring a rogue idol.

 

Oddly enough I'm toying with the idea of a fast'un, arcane tome, master of magic killaboss on vulture. MoM raises the EV up to a 9, and you can do a hero phase move with fast'un to dash ahead and drop an endless spell of some sort (maybe shackles to disrupt alpha lists?)

A generic double casting shaman on vulture would've been a fantastic option for the army.

Edit: my unbind math is probably a little off since I just did the rates of 7+ and 8+, but its in the right ballpark.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Ganigumo

[Rachmani]

Before Bounty Hunters I had really good results with +1 Armor on 20 gutrippaz. 
(really in the context of Kruleboys)

There was something there. Bounty Hunters really, really messed up that math.

[cyrus]

15 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Before Bounty Hunters I had really good results with +1 Armor on 20 gutrippaz. 
(really in the context of Kruleboys)

Did you use all out defense or mystic shied ?

Gutrippaz can not benefit from swampcalla poison/elixir once in close combat ?

[Rachmani]

2 hours ago, cyrus said:

Did you use all out defense or mystic shied ?

Gutrippaz can not benefit from swampcalla poison/elixir once in close combat ?

Yes. But you can ofc use it preemptivly. I basically surprised my opponents with an additional +1 save. Gutrippaz have 2 wounds each, so if you get them to keep their 5+ or even better, if they retain a 4+, 40 wounds soak up a lot of damage. 
I‘ve had similar (even better) experience with the killaboss on great gnashtooth. 

Basically I made my gutrippz into a moderate tarr pit. They‘d still die against the most terrifying hammers, but would surprise the rest. Add a killaboss and you don’t even need to fear battleshock.

But now they just melt against Bounty Hunters. All of a sudden those 40 wounds melt like butter in the purple sun.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Rachmani

[Vasshpit]

Question here, is there a reason the sloggoth doesnt fit into any battallions on the app? It doesnt have the "leader, monster, artillery" keyword? 

Or am i missing something? 

[Ganigumo]

Just now, Vasshpit said:

Question here, is there a reason the sloggoth doesnt fit into any battallions on the app? It doesnt have the "leader, monster, artillery" keyword? 

Or am i missing something? 

It should fit into the troop slot, but it can't go into expert conquerors (since its not a Galletian Veteran)

[Vasshpit]

@Ganigumo I thought that as well but its not working for me.

Regardless it CAN fit into the troop battalion slot, correct?

EDIT: Figured it out. 👍

Edited July 26, 2022 by Vasshpit

[Arzalyn]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:13 PM, Ganigumo said:

2x10 gutrippaz can be very expensive screens, a unit of 20 can do work if buffed up, but is very squishy with bounty hunters.

Big yellerz doesn't interest me that much because I hate playing 70/30 strats.

Our spells are fantastic, but our magic is really bad. We have no casting bonuses in book but the swampcalla shaman's poison is nearly always better than any of our spells, and doesn't need a roll to succeed so why would we bother casting with them in most cases?

For reference a spell on a 7 with +0 has a 57.83% chance of success. The opponent then has a 41.16% chance to unbind it (on a +0). Giving us an overall chance of 34.02% of succeeding. 

Gobsprakk can't bind to krondspine either, which is unfortunate plus he has no innate bonuses to cast, so he's just hoping to roll 7s unless we bring a rogue idol.

 

Oddly enough I'm toying with the idea of a fast'un, arcane tome, master of magic killaboss on vulture. MoM raises the EV up to a 9, and you can do a hero phase move with fast'un to dash ahead and drop an endless spell of some sort (maybe shackles to disrupt alpha lists?)

A generic double casting shaman on vulture would've been a fantastic option for the army.

Edit: my unbind math is probably a little off since I just did the rates of 7+ and 8+, but its in the right ballpark.

Yeah 2x10 gutrippaz are expensive, but maybe its the way to go until bounty hunters become less common (if they ever do during this GHB)?

I like the shackles idea, but most of the games I tried them they don't last more than a turn, so they work to slow your opponent down but not that much to safeguard a zone.

[Ganigumo]

I'm torn, do I bring the 20x gutrippaz in bounty hunters? Or do I take it out, go down to 2 drops, and bring some spider rider chaff?

list 1:

Quote

Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Grinnin' Blades
- Grand Strategy: Waaagh!
- Triumphs:
Killaboss on Corpse-Rippa Vulcha (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Swamp: Sneaky Miasma
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
- Lore of the Swamp: Choking Mist
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty Hex
20 x Gutrippaz (360)**
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Gutrippaz (180)**
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
Soulsnare Shackles (50)
*Battle Regiment
**Bounty Hunters

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144
Drops: 4

List 2:

Quote

Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Grinnin' Blades
- Grand Strategy: Waaagh!
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Killaboss on Corpse-Rippa Vulcha (240)**
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Swamp: Sneaky Miasma
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
- Lore of the Swamp: Choking Mist
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty Hex

Battleline
10 x Gutrippaz (180)*
10 x Gutrippaz (180)*
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)**
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)**

Units
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Spider Riders (100)**
5 x Spider Riders (100)**

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144
Drops: 2

I dropped the shackles from the second list to fit in the second unit of spider riders, because I don't have rippas snarlfangs painted and don't want to rush through them.

The second list has better board control, but I'm worried I'm going to miss the damage.

[Smash]

55 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

I'm torn, do I bring the 20x gutrippaz in bounty hunters? Or do I take it out, go down to 2 drops, and bring some spider rider chaff?

list 1:

List 2:

I dropped the shackles from the second list to fit in the second unit of spider riders, because I don't have rippas snarlfangs painted and don't want to rush through them.

The second list has better board control, but I'm worried I'm going to miss the damage.

I have not played the new grinning blades, so not sure how important this is; But should you exchange the spiders for hobgrots so your opponent gets zero ranged targets? Or do you not care that he will cast spells/shoot the riders? I do use riders in my big yeller lists, so I do see why you want to use them. 

[Ganigumo]

22 minutes ago, Smash said:

I have not played the new grinning blades, so not sure how important this is; But should you exchange the spiders for hobgrots so your opponent gets zero ranged targets? Or do you not care that he will cast spells/shoot the riders? I do use riders in my big yeller lists, so I do see why you want to use them. 

the spiders are there as chaff anyways, and the extra speed and area they can cover is nice. They'll die pretty quick vs shooting but nobody really wants to be shooting chaff in the first place.
I figure grinnin blades should be enough to make shooting matchups manageable, but the spiders would help against more aggressive armies.

[Vasshpit]

Does the sloggoths +1 affect the mirebrute even though its a mount or just the rider?

[woolf]

12 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

Does the sloggoths +1 affect the mirebrute even though its a mount or just the rider?

yep

[Arzalyn]

Warhammer Weekly had a cool show yesterday on Kruleboyz and what is holding them back competitively and could be changed.

 

[Smash]

21 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Warhammer Weekly had a cool show yesterday on Kruleboyz and what is holding them back competitively and could be changed.

I agree with so much they are saying, just wanted to add to the list of possible changes. What if the different warclans could be allies? Would that be too strong? I could see mega buffing the rogue idol with a warchanter in icebone could be problematic, but it would give the armies the list building flexibility / complexity I feel is missing. I know that is what big waagh is for, but I still think this would improve all the warclans. 

[Vasshpit]

@Smash There were a lot of great points made that I really hope to see implemented.

A few of my favs were making the belcha murknob a unit and not hero, seeing those genestealers-esque abilities implemented and just the overall theme of more hit and run/ambush styles of play applied.

Also the bits about faction battle traits being a gamble was nice. 

Still love my Kruliez regardless and will continue to play them. 

[Arzalyn]

2 hours ago, Smash said:

What if the different warclans could be allies? Would that be too strong? I could see mega buffing the rogue idol with a warchanter in icebone could be problematic, but it would give the armies the list building flexibility / complexity I feel is missing. I know that is what big waagh is for, but I still think this would improve all the warclans. 

At least for us I don't think it would change much, as you said, you can get basically this by going big waaagh (loosing the sub bonus and the dirty tricks basically) and its not big waaagh kruleboy focused lists are doing any better than pure kruleboyz. We really need units that we can buff with VEW and our other abilities to get some synergy going.

2 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

seeing those genestealers-esque abilities implemented and just the overall theme of more hit and run/ambush styles of play applied.

Also the bits about faction battle traits being a gamble was nice. 

Still love my Kruliez regardless and will continue to play them. 

The genestealer ambush makers would be so perfect for us! Maybe when we get our 4 edition tome we will get something similar to that.

IMO changing the dirty tricks to "pick D3 units" rather rolling 3 D3 and picking for each 4+ and fixing the Gurtrippaz problem (making them cheaper and/or giving us another battleline) would go a long way to at least move us to the fat middle. It give me some hopes that those two could happen after the changes in the last GHB and in some of the tome celestials.

[woolf]

Also agree with a lot of what they discussed, dirty tricks should be d3+1, same as Nighthaunt got with emerald host, just compare that to our traps.. lol..

speaking of traps they could make so much out of that, eg make them have real utility effect such as stopping a trapped unit to charge or make it so that a KB unit that is close to a unit which spring a trap can teleport away (call it a trap door or decoy unit or something). traps could also be debuffs as penalties to save to make target easier to kill, feels to me that is truly the space KB should play in and would be supercool if opponent really must think hard about what unit to send near terrain to not be caught in a nasty trap and neutralised

[Ganigumo]

Finally locked down a list, not sure how happy I am with it though.

Quote

Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Grinnin' Blades
- Grand Strategy: Waaagh!
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty Hex
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*
- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty Hex
Killaboss on Corpse-Rippa Vulcha (240)**
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Swamp: Sneaky Miasma

Battleline
10 x Gutrippaz (180)*
10 x Gutrippaz (180)*
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)**
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)**

Units
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)*
- Reinforced x 1

Artillery
Beast-skewer Killbow (130)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Soulsnare Shackles (50)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1945 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129
Drops: 2
 

The 20 bounty hunter gutrippaz just feel like they'll be too hard to position effectively, especially when I can't afford to screen for them, so I cut them for a killbow after seeing that gargants seem to be doing well again.

I've also got pics!