AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[MotherGoose]

Love all of it. Can't wait.

[Malakithe]

So The Hunger becomes a modified version of Cado's which is nice. And I do love me some cruise missile Vargskyr which will now heal and my classic boy the good ol VLoZD will have a much better sustain

[Sception]

New hunger presents an interesting tactical dilemma in terms of when you activate hungry units in combat.  Do you activate first to get their attacks in before the opponent has a chance to kill or bracket them but at the cost of wasting hunger since you can't heal wounds you haven't taken yet, or do you activate them later in the hopes of healing whatever damage they do take?  Obviously the choice will depend on whether they're already hurt & what it is they're up against, but I like rules that make you stop to think and maybe not do what would otherwise be the obvious best thing.

[TechnoVampire]

I’m encouraged by the rules previews so far! New hunger and locus rules appear to provide meaningful/ tactical implications. If the warscrolls get similar tweaks we could be onto something good! 🙏 

 

[MotherGoose]

Well.... a lot is very different. Wasnt expecting such massive changes.

I like the changes personally, spells down to 3 each per lore but all really good, legions almost completely changed other than kastelai. Mannfred no longer nopes out of combat but has some nice abilities... most of the rules are on reddit.

Overall I'm liking what I'm seeing, only thing I'm bummed about is vyrkos lost rerolls to cast and Bella is down to 170 which worries me.

Vhordrai is amazing and the mortarchs are up to 14 wounds so I assume vlozd is now 16 but can't see in the pics.

Blood knights lost retreat and charge but now get riders of ruin on the generic movement, gained 2 inch range (yay) and rend 2 on the charge.

Returning half a unit is now just a 4+ roll at end of movement (3+ if its our phase) graves do the same for setting up units but now also +1 to returned models from heroes (which is now a solid 3 instead of d3 and its just for any units within 12 of a hero)

6+ ward without restrictions.

Summonable hero's? All i see is the rat Prince guy but there may be more which is cool.

Edited April 6, 2023 by MotherGoose

[Sception]

Yeah, I was very wrong about not much changing.  They re-wrote like every unit, and all the faction and subfaction rules.  It's going to take a long time to absorb all this.  I think it looks stronger overall, but so much has changed that I really don't feel comfortable calling it one way or the other.

[Sception]

46 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

Blood Knights lost retreat and charge but now get riders of ruin on the generic movement, gained 2 inch range (yay) and rend 2 on the charge

blood knights are rend 2 all the time, damage 2 on the charge

[MotherGoose]

Vampires being cheaper than a Wight king feels wrong. Also I'm yet to see belladammas rules, she's lost rerolls to cast for vyrkos and dropped to 170 so I'm a little worried one of my favourite heroes has become worse.

[MotherGoose]

Just now, Sception said:

blood knights are rend 2 all the time, damage 2 on the charge

Yeah I forgot that, but 230 points and lost retreat and charge... as you say there's such a surprising amount of change its hard to call whether it'll be better or worse. Overall I'd say the subfactions are more powerful and obviously the spells... only time will tell.

[MotherGoose]

Our last book... 'made with 3.0 in mind' doesn't seem so anymore otherwise why have they felt the need to change so much lol

[Sception]

5 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

Vampires being cheaper than a Wight king feels wrong. Also I'm yet to see belladammas rules, she's lost rerolls to cast for vyrkos and dropped to 170 so I'm a little worried one of my favourite heroes has become worse.

wight kings are probably summonable and thus can be raised once after they die, which is probably where the difference is there.

I'm pleased with the massive buff to vampire lords, though it's kind of funny that basically since the start of AoS we've seen old VC players asking for vampire lords to be tougher, stronger, better casters, anything more than support heroes, and this book shows up with a huge buff... to their support ability, making them more of a dedicated support hero than ever before.  😛

[Doko]

Glad for you guys if you find positive things on this book becase im very down after read it.

In general we lost around the 80% of our old habilitys,gone the -ld of units,the extra d3 models in each ld,the +wound and rerolls of vyrkos etc EVERYTHING have been gone and replaced by useless things or nothing.

Zombied doing mortals? Gone and now only when they die doing useless every combat buff and imposible buff his mortals wound output.

Necro doing attack twice? Gone for only a attack in the casting phase

 

What have positive and good this book? I only see the old book with 70% less habilitys and nothing new,no new tricks etc.

I only am somewhat happy with the new spells because they are very good but that it is all

Edited April 6, 2023 by Doko

[MotherGoose]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

wight kings are probably summonable and thus can be raised once after they die, which is probably where the difference is there.

I'm pleased with the massive buff to vampire lords, though it's kind of funny that basically since the start of AoS we've seen old VC players asking for vampire lords to be tougher, stronger, better casters, anything more than support heroes, and this book shows up with a huge buff... to their support ability, making them more of a dedicated support hero than ever before.  😛

Yeah overall I love the changes to our abilities and subfcations (not so much vyrkos losing rerolls) also looks like unique vyrkos can take items and traits? Mistake maybe...

Vampire Lords in Legion of blood could be so cool now 6 attacks damage 2 in melee and +1 to cast out of melee... I'm just confused as to why they stayed 5 wounds when most foot heroes seem to be going up to 6 (a lot of khorne, new bonereapers etc.)

[MotherGoose]

8 minutes ago, Doko said:

Glad for you guys if you find positive things on this book becase im very down after read it.

In general we lost around the 80% of our old habilitys,gone the -ld of units,the extra d3 models in each ld,the +wound and rerolls of vyrkos etc EVERYTHING have been gone and replaced by useless things or nothing.

 

What have positive and good this book? I only see the old book with 70% less habilitys and nothing new,no new tricks etc.

I only am somewhat happy with the new spells because they are very good but that it is all

I get it, there's a hell of a lot that's changed. Some big ones too like Manny no longer teleports and lost his command ability - but i was never a fan of the teleport anyway so I'm not too fussed.

Process the change and then reread all the rules again - there's a hell of a lot of good abilities and warscrolls in there. Some massive changes (zombies) and some nice little changes like how skeletons now rend and ressurect at the start of combat for all dead models rather than just when activating and only for models that died in that combat phase like before for instance. You could have 5 skeletons left out of 30, charge them into combat and you immediately roll 25 dice and each 4+ is one coming back, you outnumber the enemy and you have rend attacks, have a vampire nearby and they all have +1 attack with rend.

Blood knights always rend 2 and 2" range is another nice addition, with the hunger being added to ALL vampire units including vargheists and even fell bats. We can bring a unit back on a 4+ in the movement phase now (enemies too), which can change games. We have summonable heroes, unrestricted 6++ on all units, all heroes now bring back 3 models instead of d3, +1 if near a gravesite. Blood knights in Kastelai can become 4 attacks each damage 3 on the charge with rend 2. Vhordrai's scroll is amazing. Manny and nef both up to 14 wounds, VLOZD likely up to 16 but can't see. Mortarchs are generals in addition for all legions rather than just their own. We have half the spells, traits and items but near enough all of them seem really good compared to 1 good one per legion with an array of garbage. That's just off the top of my head, I'm going to read through it all again shortly.

Black knights still suck.

[Sception]

Just now, Doko said:

What have positive and good this book? I only see the old book with 70% less habilitys and nothing new,no new tricks etc.

Nerfs are everywhere and a lot of the old tricks are gone, but buffs are everywhere too.  A non-exhaustive list:

1) Vampire lord +1 attack to a summonable unit buff is no longer a command ability.  So it doesn't take command points, can't be blocked by roar or morghasts, can stack with other combat phase command abilities, and can be used multiple times in the same combat phase if you have more than one vampire lord and more than one summonable unit in combat to buff.  This is big.

2) zombies nerfed to hell - no mortals on 6s, no 6" pile in... or are they?  they deal mortals on 5+ as they die now, and a nearby corpse cart gives them the mortals on 6s proc, and they're 2 attacks base now.  Zombies on their own are way weaker, but zombies with a corpse cart nearby?  Plus maybe a vampire lord to grant them an extra attack?  Brutal.

3) Vyrkos, now the zombie faction, can heal those zombies more, give them extra movement, and a 5+ ward

4) rend 2 blood knights, a big deal to help with our current lacking rend

5) spell lores generally improved, particularly for vampires.  fewer total, but no duds.

6) Neferata's redeploy gimmick is cool (finally some hint of her subterfuge & espionage specialty) and twilight allure being automatic instead of a command ability is good

7) Legion of Blood just looking kinda good in general - why choose between fighty and casty when you can do both instead?

 

I don't know.  Just, a lot different.  Old tricks won't work, but there are new tricks here.  It could pan out worse than previous book, but overall I'm feeling pretty positive.

[MotherGoose]

2 minutes ago, Sception said:

Nerfs are everywhere and a lot of the old tricks are gone, but buffs are everywhere too.  A non-exhaustive list:

1) Vampire lord +1 attack to a summonable unit buff is no longer a command ability.  So it doesn't take command points, can't be blocked by roar or morghasts, can stack with other combat phase command abilities, and can be used multiple times in the same combat phase if you have more than one vampire lord and more than one summonable unit in combat to buff.  This is big.

2) zombies nerfed to hell - no mortals on 6s, no 6" pile in... or are they?  they deal mortals on 5+ as they die now, and a nearby corpse cart gives them the mortals on 6s proc, and they're 2 attacks base now.  Zombies on their own are way weaker, but zombies with a corpse cart nearby?  Plus maybe a vampire lord to grant them an extra attack?  Brutal.

3) Vyrkos, now the zombie faction, can heal those zombies more, give them extra movement, and a 5+ ward

4) rend 2 blood knights, a big deal to help with our current lacking rend

5) spell lores generally improved, particularly for vampires.  fewer total, but no duds.

6) Neferata's redeploy gimmick is cool (finally some hint of her subterfuge & espionage specialty) and twilight allure being automatic instead of a command ability is good

7) Legion of Blood just looking kinda good in general - why choose between fighty and casty when you can do both instead?

 

I don't know.  Just, a lot different.  Old tricks won't work, but there are new tricks here.  It could pan out worse than previous book, but overall I'm feeling pretty positive.

I loved zombies before, but I think I actually prefer them now - it's viable to use both zombies and skeletons now, and zombies are a great tarpit that no one is going to want to be in combat with zombies now, before they could be nuked by a big bad, now they will **** them up either way - Gordrakk charging into 40 zombies? here have 13 mortals on average just from us dying, oh hi we are back next turn.

[Craze]

Named Vyrkos heroes being able to get Command Traits and Artifacts is also something very interesting.

[ArcLight]

Worth noting the corpse cart buff for zombies is on 6s to Wound and is a mortal in addition rather than instead of normal damage. But they function much better as a tarpit now and will take enemies down with them when they get murdered.

All of the Vyrkos buffs go on Dire Wolves the same as zombies so it's interesting that they can use the heroic action to increase the size of a unit as well as do additional healing. Radukar's bonus 10 wolves is just something any of them can do now too which is nice.

[TechnoVampire]

Has anyone got a link to the leaks please? 

[ArcLight]

4 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

Has anyone got a link to the leaks please? 

https://imgur.io/a/vWYncGd?fbclid=IwAR16L0Dva_KMSQ8QQ3mYwNllMkbLmJa4VluCrdEJjDwRzgZmwq1iPClo_as

[TechnoVampire]

3 minutes ago, ArcLight said:

https://imgur.io/a/vWYncGd?fbclid=IwAR16L0Dva_KMSQ8QQ3mYwNllMkbLmJa4VluCrdEJjDwRzgZmwq1iPClo_as

Thank you kindly!

[ArcLight]

Skeletons are also looking pretty solid at staying alive with that 4+ per slain model resurrection being every combat phase + the 3 or 4 in your hero phase with deathly invocation. Then they can actually hit kind of decently if the hero babysitting them is a vampire lord for +1 attack and the rend they should have.

[TechnoVampire]

There’s a lot to digest here! Many changes, some good, but also some quite big losses. I play kastelia blood knights usually with support from VLOZD/ Vhordrai and Mannfred for utility and buffing and a unit of grave guard. I’m trying to see the positives, but my knee-****** reaction is that I’ve lost quite a lot of tech. Mannfred is a huge nerf losing his teleport, his command ability and locking his 1+ attack ability to legion of night. Vhordrai is an improvement, and has some nice ability’s, but it hurts my soul to still see those 4’s to hit, and not a single 2+ to hit or wound for an attack, unlike so many hero monsters now. He’s also lost his spell that gives him +1 to hit and wound for reliability, and lost 1 damage on the Lance vs an extra attack which feels unnecessary. Blood knights extra rend is great, as is 2” reach, but losing retreat and charge is a big deal, and the points increase is significant. Having to take a command trait to deep strike also seems harsh. Pinions gone is very sad for alpha strike, but the other lore of the vampires spells seem ok. I’ve not looked at much else. So many changes to go over it will take time. I’m sure there’s some nice stuff in there but my main list will need a serious rethink. Hope others are feeling happy with the changes! 

Edited April 7, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[JackStreicher]

Well with all the new information I wonder why Nagash costs more than 450 points to be honest. He adds nothing special.

Vampires: Still weak - I don't get it. The only thing they'll blend is their dreams.
Black Knights: Third time in a row they've been made plainly bad.
Dire Wolves: good
Radukar: Okayish?
Lilly Volga: Fine, yet she won't kill anything with those flimsy weak attacks 
Zombies: Weird? You need to get a Corpse cart to trigger their mortal wounds.
Corpse Cart: ???. He has zero defense and everyone will commit a few shots to take him out.
Skeletons: Better than before unless I am missing something
Grave Guard: Look there, still the best blender unit we have...
Blood Knights: Unwarrented Points increase
Mannfred: What exactly are you even supposed to be anymore? Better damage? Still too squishy. Feels like a 250 pts unit
Neferata: Wow, not special at all somehow. Better damage? Still too squishy. Feels like a 260 pts unit

 

 Both Mortarchs do a lot of nothing and cost 390 points each. At that points range they enter Katakros territory and that guy is bonkers.

Legions:
LoB is good
LoN is bad (at first glance)
Kastelei is equal? - a little uninspired 
Avengorii - I just don't care, we have FeC for that kind of army
Vyrkos - I like them. The +1 to cast never made sense anyways
Overall too many "once per game on a 3+" - just STOP IT


I don't know guys. I was excited about some changes but they've really beaten the book to the dust (not talking about power). So many missed opportunities.

But hey, we will certainly get some bonkers battle tactics so we can play the game within the game that shouldn't be all the game is about. *add ugly smily here* let’s play Age of Battle Tactics.

Vamps being  worse than a humans again is ignorant considering the community (not only this forum) is unanimously pro better Vampires. They've even reworked the WD update to LoB to be worse.

No one says every Vamp needs to blend, just open up the option.

Edited April 7, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Doko]

I gonna try coment changes:

In general we lost EVERY comand ability so we have lost HUGE damage and tankiness output buffed.

-NERF to our signature passives as we lost the debuff to leadership,attack unit after hero(white dwarf)  and then changed locust and a buff\nerf to the revive models and units(buff in some situation and nerf in others)

-NERF to every single leguion as we lost almost every passive as +1 wound in vyrkos,+1 save nigth etc 

Units:i ignore warbands or cursed city

-nagash NERFED lossing his only good use that was spam arcane bolts and also lost his ca and nerfed his revive models

-manfred DELETED. ca deleted,his +attack of sword also nerfed,deleted his teleport  and also nerf in points

-neferata NERFED, same damage than before but for almost 50 points expensiver and only got a redeploy 3 units at start of the game

-vordrai NERF\BUFF his damage output have been nerfed due to the nerf of his maw and lance when charge also lost the +1 hit and wound but now can attack first also lost calice

-radukar the beast DELETED, nerfed around 130 points for same stats(now cant sumon wolfs so the cost of 10 wolfs did old radukar cost around 190) and also now only buff attack to sumoneable units and not all as before

-velladama BUFFED,same stats and cost 170 now(lost the rerolls cast due to vyrkos legion nerfs)

-vampire lord NERFED, we could stack 1,2,3 extra attacks and also we had these effect in enemy turn,now only can be used our turn and only +1,it isnt a ca so cant be denied by roar but huge nerf

-necromancer NERFED, changed of attack twice to attack in hero phase that is a huge nerf

-lauka vai BUFFED,she is bad yet due to be named and avengori being useless but for 10 extra points she have got around 20% more damage output and with more rend

-lady anika BUFFED, she have +1 attack and also she have one use now that is put a -1 to save to enemy heroes,i dont think be worth spend 120 points for her but have one use now

-ratman DELETED, before he had one use that was revive to have one hero for galetian objetives and he lost it because he cant revive now

-corpse carts DELETED,had only one use and was the -wound aura and they have lost it

-blood knigths NERFED,lost disengage and charge,and got a huge nerf in points for only a +1" to lance and +1 rend in lance,so around 15% nerf in points for same tankines,less movility(and less mortal wounds) and a nerf in damage(around 15% nerf in points for a around 12% more damage of the extra rend in lances)

-black knigths BUFFED, maybe one of my favourite units in this book now, for 100 points they do now 3'3 mortals wound when charge

-wolfs DELETED, can pile in 6" but due to coherency rules is useless and got a nerf in points and lost +1 hit and wound

-bats NERFED,same ****** unit but nerfed in points

-vargheist NERFED,same stats but a huge nerf in points only to get hunger that isnt very usefull in 4wounds models

-grave guard with shield BUFED, same cost and have now save 4 and not 5+1

-grave guard with two hands NERFED, same cost and now 2" range but with small bases dont care and now changed from 3 hit and 4 wound to 4 hit and 3 wound,so now have 16% less mortal wound output

-skeletons BUFFED, they are now very good because revive lost models in entire game,so can bring back models lost in shooting,magic or even old turns! Also have now 1 rend if have more models than enemy,80 damage for 3'3 rend1 damage is very poor but better than before and they are one great tank unit now

-zombies DELETED,they are useless now,lost the 6" pile in to ignore overwatch,run and pile in,get models in combat etc and also lost the mortals when hit. They are useless now because they are slow,have 0 damage and if we want tarpit units we have the skeletons now that are better,so zombies in this book havent any use

 

So thats all,in general i fell this book is a huge nerf from the old as we have lost almost every multiplier passive,buff,ca and the scrolls in general have been nerfed also.

After read entire changes i only see good or usefull the new spells,vordrai in kastelai lists,belladama,vampire lord,skeletons,black knigths and grave guard

 

In general im sure this book gonna be worse in competitive than our old book that is a shame because we are almost in the botton of win rate tables allready.

Of course this book isnt ****** and useless and have some decent combos,but nothing better than our old book.

 

I gonna be glad of read your thinking about the changes

Edited April 7, 2023 by Doko