General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[yukishiro1]

13 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Although the Windrunners count as having charged, this will not allow them to pile in unless they have actually made a charge move.  

Why would "count as having made a charge move" not mean you, well, count as having made a charge move? Wording seems pretty clear to me. What does "count as having made a charge move" mean if it doesn't mean treat you as if you charged? 

[Aelfric]

Just now, yukishiro1 said:

Why would "count as having made a charge move" not mean you, well, count as having made a charge move? Wording seems pretty clear to me. What does "count as having made a charge move" mean if it doesn't mean treat you as if you charged? 

Well, when a model flees to battleshock it counts as slain, but it isn't actually slain.  The term "Counts as" is, as far as I'm aware, used to allow conditions to be met for the purposes of using other abilities or rules with certain prerequisite requirements, but not the actual thing it is counting as.  I'm prepared to be proved wrong, though.

[yukishiro1]

Right...and the prerequisite to piling is is having charged (or being within 3"). Here, they count as having charged. This means they meet the prerequisite.  I don't see any way to say "count as having charged" unlocks that part of the Hurakan rule, but doesn't also unlock that part of the pile-in rule generally. 

They didn't actually charge, but they count as having done it, which unlocks anything limited to charging units. 

I mean if I'm wrong I'm happy enough to be wrong - it seems like an incredibly abusive interaction - but I'm not seeing any way around it based on how the battalion effect is worded. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Aelfric]

49 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Right...and the prerequisite to piling is is having charged (or being within 3"). Here, they count as having charged. This means they meet the prerequisite.  I don't see any way to say "count as having charged" unlocks that part of the Hurakan rule, but doesn't also unlock that part of the pile-in rule generally. 

They didn't actually charge, but they count as having done it, which unlocks anything limited to charging units. 

I mean if I'm wrong I'm happy enough to be wrong - it seems like an incredibly abusive interaction - but I'm not seeing any way around it based on how the battalion effect is worded. 

 

Well, one of us must be wrong, but goodness knows which.  I wish and hope that edition 3.0 has a lexicon of rules terms and their concise definition.  Perhaps that would  clear up these types of issues.  All I can say is that I will be applying my interpretation when fielding rooriders and I hope that any LRL player you face will do likewise.  If we're lucky, we may get an answer in the FAQ (hopefully the right one  ).

[Jefferson Skarsnik]

Age of Hardcore Verbal Reasoning

[Kadeton]

2 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Well, when a model flees to battleshock it counts as slain, but it isn't actually slain.

Not having a go at you in particular, but the willingness of a seemingly large portion of the playerbase to accept that "counts as xxxx" literally means "does not count as xxxx" is utterly baffling to me.

[Aelfric]

28 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Not having a go at you in particular, but the willingness of a seemingly large portion of the playerbase to accept that "counts as xxxx" literally means "does not count as xxxx" is utterly baffling to me.

If "counts as slain" is identical to "slain", then why use the "counts as"?  GW could easily just say when a model flees from battleshock it is slain.  The point is they don't.  There is a difference between counts as a thing and the thing itself.  Whatever the thing is that is referred to hasn't actually happened; it counts as the thing in order to allow the criteria for another rule to be satisfied.  I don't accept that "counts as" literally means " does not count as" because those are not the two states I am comparing.  I am comparing counts as a thing with the actual thing.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Aelfric

[yukishiro1]

There may be a distinction in some other case, but not one that would apply here. If "counts as charging" works for upgrading the pile-in to 6" and giving it FLY, I don't see how it can not also work for allowing you to pile-in in the first place. Both are keyed to whether you charged, and the battalion says you always (as long as you're a HERO or in range of one) count as charging. Counts as charging can't mean one thing for one rule that depends on whether you charged and a different thing for another rule that depends on the same thing. 

 

 

 

[Ganigumo]

5 hours ago, Aelfric said:

The core rules say you can only pick a unit to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit or made a charge move that turn.   Pile in only occurs when a unit is picked to fight.  Although the Windrunners count as having charged, this will not allow them to pile in unless they have actually made a charge move.  Therefore, it will only come into play if they are within 3" of an enemy unit and haven't charged.  

The language "Counts as having charged" is used here because the models never actually charged. This is just like battleshock where rules that trigger when the model is slain don't trigger, but anything that checks if the model had been slain (past tense) treat it as such.

So in this scenario if the model had a rule that triggered when they charged (say mortal wounds when the charge is completed) that ability wouldnt trigger, but anything that happens after which only cares about if the model charged previously would.

Since the fight rules are checking if a unit charged (past tense) and the units count as having charged they are eligible to make pile-in moves, even if theres nothing within 3" (or even if theres nothing on the board at all).

The lumineth writer probably got a little too cute writing this rule, and didn't consider all the consequences. Hopefully the errata doesn't create precedent for battleshock to change as well.

[yukishiro1]

This isn't some super obscure combination of weird rules interactions from totally different areas of the game that took the full powers of the internet weeks or months to figure out, it's a pretty basic interaction that is directly related to the core effect of the rule - the whole thing is about pile-ins, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see how that wording plays out with regard to, well, pile-ins. It's something that should have been spotted and ironed out far in advance of publication. It's unfortunately another indictment of their editors and playtesting program (not saying an indictment of the playtesters themselves, you can only expect so much from unpaid labor), assuming of course that it is an oversight...though if it's intentional it arguably says even worse things about their design process. At the very least, it should have been clarified in the "Designer's Note" that literally appears right below whether this interaction was intended; the fact that it isn't seems like really strong evidence nobody even saw the issue. 

I think it's fair to expect better from a company worth 5 billion that's charging $50 for its books, it's not five dudes in grandma's basement any more and it hasn't been for a long time. And we all know it's not an isolated error; the most recent Codex in 40k also had a high profile, game-breaking typo in the points cost, which thankfully is so clearly and obviously wrong that people seem to have just ignored it. They really need to get their proofreading and editing act together, it's not reasonable to still be outsourcing it to the internet. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by yukishiro1

[pnkdth]

Whenever I see "treat as having charged" or "count as having charged" I assume you treat/count those models as if having made a charge. "Count as slain" is just a way to say the model is removed from play ("place the slain model to the side - it is removed from play" - Slain models). The model isn't actually slain but it counts as being so for the purposes of removing it from play. Same with other rules like it, you haven't actually charged but you count as having done so for rules purposes. Which means you are eligible for all the interactions associated with a unit who has charged.

[Kadeton]

5 hours ago, Aelfric said:

If "counts as slain" is identical to "slain", then why use the "counts as"?  GW could easily just say when a model flees from battleshock it is slain.

Not to get too much into it here (there's a much more in-depth discussion on the Rules forum), but it's because the rule doesn't actually say the model counts as slain. Instead, the model counts as having been slain. Rules that key off a model being slain (in the present tense) won't take effect, but rules that key off a model having been slain (in the past tense) will.

But a model that counts as having been slain and a model that has been slain are treated identically by the rules in every respect.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Kadeton

[whispersofblood]

12 hours ago, SorryLizard said:

Sorry to bring this up again but I'm hearing conflicting things on this. Do we have the actual wording of the battalion ability?

We'll have to wait for better screen grabs but when I saw the text it included the rule Hurukan rule as the jump off point. 

The distinction here is only if they effectively gain a 6" unrestricted move in the combat phase for those who aren't involved.

On the other hand I don't think the Spirit of the wind is good enough to really chase the rule anyway. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by whispersofblood

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The language "Counts as having charged" is used here because the models never actually charged. This is just like battleshock where rules that trigger when the model is slain don't trigger, but anything that checks if the model had been slain (past tense) treat it as such.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Where in the rules do they distinguish between "past tense" and "present tense"? It is always a bit amusing to me when people start interpreting the rules further than what the rules actually say.

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, Kasper said:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Where in the rules do they distinguish between "past tense" and "present tense"? It is always a bit amusing to me when people start interpreting the rules further than what the rules actually say.

Do they really need to explain the english language and the concept of linear time in the rules?

 

Every english sentence has a tense because english verbs have a tense. There is no "passive tense" in english. Sometimes there is a bit of confusion because the same spelling of the verb is used in multiple tenses (i.e slain) but the  context of the sentence does the work in clearing up the intention.

"The unit counts as having charged" -past tense

"The unit counts as charging" - present tense

"The unit will count as charging" -future tense

These all have different meanings.

[Kasper]

8 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Do they really need to explain the english language and the concept of linear time in the rules?

 

Every english sentence has a tense because english verbs have a tense. There is no "passive tense" in english. Sometimes there is a bit of confusion because the same spelling of the verb is used in multiple tenses (i.e slain) but the  context of the sentence does the work in clearing up the intention.

"The unit counts as having charged" -past tense

"The unit counts as charging" - present tense

"The unit will count as charging" -future tense

These all have different meanings.

Rule interactions typically happen at the very same time. There is no "past tense" in regards to AoS rules. 

Someone in the other thread explained it rather well - You can dance and sing. This doesnt mean you dance first and then sing. It means you do it at the same time.

There is nowhere in the rules where they have made a distriction of tense. That is entirely you starting to compose rules that dont exist. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Kasper

[whispersofblood]

So I've seen clearer text. 

Regarding the Windriders Battalion. It's simply counts as charging, which is better than simply procing Move like the Wind as it effectively allows for a unrestricted 6" move in the combat phase. You still need a windmage WW6"(24" if its the general) for fly however. Honestly 180 for the battalion and 250 for the Spirit means it is not a very cheap ability. Unless you are going something like 30 Windriders the whole package is a bit dubious for the effect. And likely won't result in many if any slain models.

A better combo is probably Sharks with net launchers and no battalion.

However Helon has been misreported, it is +1 A to missile Weapons when within 3" of an enemy unit so the killing edge of Windriders is heavily overstated, by about 46%.

I think all told my feelings having now had a chance to see all the rules are...

On a battleplan the book will put up some resistance, and force the opponent to think about their play. But will ultimately probably lose more often then it wins, probably a 2-3 in the hands of an average player. The people who win games with LRL between experienced players are probably the sort that will win with almost any army. 

[Ragest]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

So I've seen clearer text. 

Regarding the Windriders Battalion. It's simply counts as charging, which is better than simply procing Move like the Wind as it effectively allows for a unrestricted 6" move in the combat phase. You still need a windmage WW6"(24" if its the general) for fly however. Honestly 180 for the battalion and 250 for the Spirit means it is not a very cheap ability. Unless you are going something like 30 Windriders the whole package is a bit dubious for the effect. And likely won't result in many if any slain models.

A better combo is probably Sharks with net launchers and no battalion.

However Helon has been misreported, it is +1 A to missile Weapons when within 3" of an enemy unit so the killing edge of Windriders is heavily overstated, by about 46%.

I think all told my feelings having now had a chance to see all the rules are...

On a battleplan the book will put up some resistance, and force the opponent to think about their play. But will ultimately probably lose more often then it wins, probably a 2-3 in the hands of an average player. The people who win games with LRL between experienced players are probably the sort that will win with almost any army. 

As you said, you need to spend almost half your list to gain that ability, and honestly, 800-900pt to just move 12” more with weak offensive and defensive stats is terrible. Even in Helon they are not more than “meh”.

So much investment, so much situational, forcing combos that most of the time are going to fail and extremely skilled to get something that, honestly, doesn’t deserve that effort.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Ragest

[NinthMusketeer]

On 3/29/2021 at 3:57 PM, Aelfric said:

Well, when a model flees to battleshock it counts as slain, but it isn't actually slain.  The term "Counts as" is, as far as I'm aware, used to allow conditions to be met for the purposes of using other abilities or rules with certain prerequisite requirements, but not the actual thing it is counting as.  I'm prepared to be proved wrong, though.

Counts as having been slain (past tense), even though it was not actually slain (present tense). Counts as having charged, even though it did not make a charge.

So abilities that trigger based on completion of a charge move (the realm of life spell shield of thorns, for example) would not trigger. However, combat phase effects that trigger based on the unit having made a charge in the previous phase will.

[NinthMusketeer]

Exact wording: "If a unit from this battalion is wholly within 12" of a Hero from the same battalion at the start of the combat phase, the models in that unit count as having made a charge move in the same turn."

So yes, they will get a free 6" every combat phase (provided they are in range of the hero, of course). Also some notes:

-The basic Harukan allegiance ability gives +3" and fly on pile-ins when having charged, windmage does not have to be there.

-The windmage command trait expanding his bubble of giving fly to 24" is irrelevant, like every command trait on any chart in the past two years, because the command trait will be fixed by sub-faction.

Edited April 2, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[KingKull]

Not very familiar with AoS but a buddy's looking to getting into LRL and is rethinking it due to claims of OPedness.

Would anyone be so kind as to give me a quick summary of why LRL are considered OP? Much obliged in advance. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by KingKull

[inflitionz]

7 minutes ago, KingKull said:

Not very familiar with AoS but a buddy's looking to getting into LRL and is rethinking it due to claims of OPedness.

Would anyone be so kind as to give me a quick summary of why LRL are considered OP? Much obliged in advance. 

no point really explaining any of it when sigmar 3.0 will change the vast majority of pros and cons, OP'ness.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

2 hours ago, KingKull said:

Not very familiar with AoS but a buddy's looking to getting into LRL and is rethinking it due to claims of OPedness.

Would anyone be so kind as to give me a quick summary of why LRL are considered OP? Much obliged in advance. 

I haven't quite yet discovered anything especially OP. Although, I also don't really go looking for it either.  Which as mentioned above could change with the beginning of a new core rules set. That said, there are a few things that get touted as OP and likely will regardless of anything less of making them absolutely for at least the next year as many people don't keep up the game, don't actually play the game, etc.

Number 1 on the list of most talked about OP units for the Lumineth is the Vanari Sentinels (the archers).  Largely due to being able to generate Mortal Wounds (MW) on hit rolls of 6 (5s with Power of Hysh) as well as their ability to shoot 30" and without needing Line of Sight (LoS).  As a biased Lumineth player, I haven't seen this supposed OP-ness show itself as each model has 1 attack (minus the Leader).  So actual MW output is only about 2-3 for 10 typically for 140 points.  It certainly can be an issue for the weakest of Hero types, but beyond that, I haven't found Sentinels in actual use allowing me to auto-win.  That said, I only run 20 and don't give them support.  Still, I can't help to think the complaints are largely from the idea of opponents taking long range MW and the inherent powerlessness of it regardless of its actual effect.

Next, it usually Teclis who has the ability to cast 1-4 spells automatically as if rolling 10 for 4 spells, 12 for 2 spells and a single spell that can't be unbound.  Along with knowing every spell in the Lumineth battletome and couple powerful spells only known by himself. I can't comment too much on Teclis as I haven't fielded him.  Looking at him he seems like a binary thing where he can be overwhelming (and at 660 point he should be doing something) for some armies and underwhelming for others.

Something also uncommonly mentioned is the Lumineth have a bunch of special faction abilities.  I personally think it is kinda flavorful that the Lumineth are overly complicated for not apparent reason.  However, I can also see that they are a faction that wants its opponents to be more familiar than average with their rules than most.  Otherwise, there can be a few gotchas as I do find it difficult to explain to everything the faction is capable before a game, let alone before it is too late for an opponent to accidentally fall into a some sort of trap.  I think the big ones are the Total Eclipse spell which doubles the cost of using Command Points (CP), Speed of Hysh which doubles the Movement of a unit, Lighting Reactions which allow them to activate 2 units for every 1 their opponent does in melee.

Since Bravery and Battleshock aren't usually an issue, this doesn't come up much, but Lumineth have a surprising number of ways to lower enemy units' Bravery.  Which can very much catch someone off guard.

 

A lot of me suspects the reason Lumineth get this reputation is much like Primaris space marines in 40k do.  On paper, they have all these rules, many of which seem to break the core rules of the game.  Because they have a lot of special abilities and such this must be their raw power or some secret combination of synergies make them a boogyman powerhouse.  That's added to the fact that since they are a magic faction they seem to have no shortage of generating Mortal Wounds (and much of it at range) which most factions just have to take. 

I have my reservations about the Lumineth being as OP as they are made out to be. The faction has a lot of draw backs.  I'm not sure if they get overlooked or not.  First off, the faction is composed of some points heavy units.  Doubley so if you consider how fragile most of them are (at least without magic).  They are also surprisingly slow save a few units or again use of magic.  This may have changed some with Wave 2 (I haven't really looked as I'm not ready to buy more models).  Finally, and something I find can be their biggest weakness is that the Lumineth are very vulnerable to battleshock.  To be sure, there a many things they can do to circumvent it, but it does feel to me that more resources have to be put in place to avoid it than most AoS factions.

 

Again, I am a Lumineth player.  So I will look at them in a favorable light.  I also don't spend much time rooting out the most power for any army I play.  I am just not that kind of player.  So I can very easily miss even obvious power combos.  Finally, only this last month have I managed to even start playing games again.  So I don't have much experience yet, and I specifically built a Ymetrica Alarith army.  I would have probably gone all in on Stone Guard if they didn't cost so much money.  Which turned out to have a silver lining as I don't think I could fit more than the 20 I do have in a list now, and it's not really worth it without the Alarith Temple Battalion.

[KingKull]

10 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

I haven't quite yet discovered anything especially OP. Although, I also don't really go looking for it either.  Which as mentioned above could change with the beginning of a new core rules set. That said, there are a few things that get touted as OP and likely will regardless of anything less of making them absolutely for at least the next year as many people don't keep up the game, don't actually play the game, etc.

Number 1 on the list of most talked about OP units for the Lumineth is the Vanari Sentinels (the archers).  Largely due to being able to generate Mortal Wounds (MW) on hit rolls of 6 (5s with Power of Hysh) as well as their ability to shoot 30" and without needing Line of Sight (LoS).  As a biased Lumineth player, I haven't seen this supposed OP-ness show itself as each model has 1 attack (minus the Leader).  So actual MW output is only about 2-3 for 10 typically for 140 points.  It certainly can be an issue for the weakest of Hero types, but beyond that, I haven't found Sentinels in actual use allowing me to auto-win.  That said, I only run 20 and don't give them support.  Still, I can't help to think the complaints are largely from the idea of opponents taking long range MW and the inherent powerlessness of it regardless of its actual effect.

Next, it usually Teclis who has the ability to cast 1-4 spells automatically as if rolling 10 for 4 spells, 12 for 2 spells and a single spell that can't be unbound.  Along with knowing every spell in the Lumineth battletome and couple powerful spells only known by himself. I can't comment too much on Teclis as I haven't fielded him.  Looking at him he seems like a binary thing where he can be overwhelming (and at 660 point he should be doing something) for some armies and underwhelming for others.

Something also uncommonly mentioned is the Lumineth have a bunch of special faction abilities.  I personally think it is kinda flavorful that the Lumineth are overly complicated for not apparent reason.  However, I can also see that they are a faction that wants its opponents to be more familiar than average with their rules than most.  Otherwise, there can be a few gotchas as I do find it difficult to explain to everything the faction is capable before a game, let alone before it is too late for an opponent to accidentally fall into a some sort of trap.  I think the big ones are the Total Eclipse spell which doubles the cost of using Command Points (CP), Speed of Hysh which doubles the Movement of a unit, Lighting Reactions which allow them to activate 2 units for every 1 their opponent does in melee.

Since Bravery and Battleshock aren't usually an issue, this doesn't come up much, but Lumineth have a surprising number of ways to lower enemy units' Bravery.  Which can very much catch someone off guard.

 

A lot of me suspects the reason Lumineth get this reputation is much like Primaris space marines in 40k do.  On paper, they have all these rules, many of which seem to break the core rules of the game.  Because they have a lot of special abilities and such this must be their raw power or some secret combination of synergies make them a boogyman powerhouse.  That's added to the fact that since they are a magic faction they seem to have no shortage of generating Mortal Wounds (and much of it at range) which most factions just have to take. 

I have my reservations about the Lumineth being as OP as they are made out to be. The faction has a lot of draw backs.  I'm not sure if they get overlooked or not.  First off, the faction is composed of some points heavy units.  Doubley so if you consider how fragile most of them are (at least without magic).  They are also surprisingly slow save a few units or again use of magic.  This may have changed some with Wave 2 (I haven't really looked as I'm not ready to buy more models).  Finally, and something I find can be their biggest weakness is that the Lumineth are very vulnerable to battleshock.  To be sure, there a many things they can do to circumvent it, but it does feel to me that more resources have to be put in place to avoid it than most AoS factions.

 

Again, I am a Lumineth player.  So I will look at them in a favorable light.  I also don't spend much time rooting out the most power for any army I play.  I am just not that kind of player.  So I can very easily miss even obvious power combos.  Finally, only this last month have I managed to even start playing games again.  So I don't have much experience yet, and I specifically built a Ymetrica Alarith army.  I would have probably gone all in on Stone Guard if they didn't cost so much money.  Which turned out to have a silver lining as I don't think I could fit more than the 20 I do have in a list now, and it's not really worth it without the Alarith Temple Battalion.

Very much obliged for the elaborate yet very digestible answer, my friend is going to be very happy. He's let fears of being "that guy" for getting into lumineth get the better of him (although he very much isn't - we play 40k on a regular basis) and I thought some outside info from a more knowledgeable source would help soothe him since I didn't manage to on my own. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by KingKull

[stratigo]

17 hours ago, inflitionz said:

no point really explaining any of it when sigmar 3.0 will change the vast majority of pros and cons, OP'ness.

But it looks to be doubling down on the OP things for LRL. Boosting sentinels to 30 from 20 is great for command efficiency. Teclis was already quite hard a model to kill, and now heals 4 wounds a turn, so if you aren't set up to take him out fast, you simply are never killing him. MSU boosts teclis' magical nuke. It also boosts his ability to force opponents to double the cost for command abilities, which hardcore screws a lot of armies now that command points go away and are such a big deal.

 

Everything is, obviously, pending points costs, but the head rules dude for AoS also really really likes elves.

 

That said, you don't have to make LRL OP. It's not like 2.0 seraphon where you can oopsie into OP builds by just throwing units together, LRL require a bit of thought behind the list making process. If you avoid teclis and a few other units, you'll probably be fine.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by stratigo