General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[chosen_of_khaine]

1 hour ago, Feii said:

actually you don't use them as a ranged units but you use their 3 inches meele range (what the f*ck their meele bows have 3 inches range, my dracolines don't have that or slaneeshi seekers with their giant glaives have 2 inch range) and  you ignore normal pile in rules SO what do you do? Rules loophole!   Watch the time stamp https://youtu.be/DfK73qp_nuc?t=15989


Basically windchargers are a mediocre skirmish unit but an amazing NPE overload.  (that -2 rend on the bow is just an icing on a  cake)

 

I think the 3" melee range on the Windchargers and Spirit of the Wind is supposed to represent firing quick shots at close range, not literally smacking with the bows, which is why the spirit's melee profile is the exact same as the ranged but with fewer attacks. Why the windcharger bows are -2 rend in melee is beyond me though, I'm guessing that's a mistake. 

Regarding the video, that is a disgusting interaction by charging two units that I haven't thought about. I'm wondering if this book was made with future AoS 3.0 rules in mind. Also, what was the "golden age" of piling in rules they mentioned? I can't remember a point where what they were talking about in example 2 was not possible, assuming 6" activation and 6" pile in.

Edited March 29, 2021 by chosen_of_khaine

[yukishiro1]

That interaction isn't  as bad with the windchargers because they can't pile in from 6" if they aren't in combat like the blissbarbs can in their battalion; the windcharger battalion just lets them always pile in 6", but they still have to be within 3" to begin with, which means they actually have to be within .5" because the only way for them to get within 3" is to charge and be within .5". You can still charge in with two windcharger units from different sides and, because you get the first activation and a double activation (thanks LRL special rule! lol!), you can pile-out with both of them to 2.9" and achieve the same thing - but you have to be able to charge to do it, which means you can't do it more than once since they can't retreat and charge. 

Two foxes is much more abusive as they have retreat and charge AND reduce pile-in themselves to only 1". So you double charge in your turn, then use the first activation to move both back to 2.9" on either side. The enemy can only pile in 1", so even the closest model ends up 1.9" away and at best you're taking hits from probably one model on each end. Then on their turn, you move them both away in their shooting phase (thanks GW for that rule too! lol!) and you have now prevented them from moving, and you are 13.9" away from them, so they can't even try to charge you. Then you just repeat it on your turn forever. 

Now this does take 500 points to shut down a single unit, and they'll just get shot if your opponent has any shooting. But against a predominantly melee army without shooting, it is NPE of the worst kind. And you don't even really need two foxes to do it, a single one can do it almost as well vs almost everything. 

At the very least, the move 12" during your opponent's shooting phase surely has to go away. And beyond that, I think the combination of being able to pile out and reduce pile-ins to 1" is probably really bad game design that is going to result in serious NPE for melee-based armies, which already have a hard time as it is. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[kahadin]

57 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Now this does take 500 points to shut down a single unit, and they'll just get shot if your opponent has any shooting. But against a predominantly melee army without shooting, it is NPE of the worst kind. And you don't even really need two foxes to do it, a single one can do it almost as well vs almost everything.

Bottomline up front: Windy Wendy doesn't get +3" choose to pile in range (like seeker cavalcade). This means you have to charge with them. This means your opponent can choose to retreat on their turn if they even want to.

I'll be straight, I'd laugh at any chump that tried this. If it makes people play multiple threats on the table instead of just death stars I'd be happy to see it. Even without locking units out of swinging back using 2 units to lock up a unit has always existed. You don't see it because its a bad exchange.

The victim can either continue sitting on his objective or retreat to the objective you stopped him from reaching. Or bring in another threat to kill those chumps. If the chumps retreat in the victim's shooting phase then it only frees the victim unit to charge something.

I'll play against this with my blades of khorne mortals and I'll report back about how I cried when I got my skullreapers locked for a turn while I scored all over the board with everything else.

My earlier comment of my three lumineth games was true. Even blind (unaware of any of their rules) I beat them with blades of Khorne. I can't imagine the game getting harder when my opponent replaces 500 points of their army with these fox spirits.

[Icarion]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

 

At the very least, the move 12" during your opponent's shooting phase surely has to go away. And beyond that, I think the combination of being able to pile out and reduce pile-ins to 1" is probably really bad game design that is going to result in serious NPE for melee-based armies, which already have a hard time as it is. 

Again, we disagree on the minutia, but are of the same mind on the broader point.

The 12" shooting move during opponents turns is obviously an oversight. And will/deserves to be removed/FAQ'd.

But I love that he can pile out 3" and reduce enemy pile in to 1". You may deride it as NPE but I call it a brilliant mechanic to force interesting choices on an opponent. Severieth is a threat, and if you can lock him in combat you HAVE to strike him first or risk him fleeing. It makes him an interesting piece to tempt a 2nd or third charge for lumineth players, when you know the enemy will charge you elsewhere on the board. He will make opponent make difficult decisions on combat order when they have more than 1 to pick, and that alone makes him a wonderful unit for the game. Both for lumineth, and opposing players alike. 

I feel you have a very narrow view on NPE, and tbh I think this mechanic makes the in game choices way more important/meaningful for opponents, and so improves the enjoyment of the game  by leaps and bounds.

I'm not saying you are wrong (NPE is personal) but please don't call it that, until you have had to make that choice in a game yourself to decided whether or not it made the game more exciting/interesting. playing against Sevireth (I believe) adds risk, and rarely does that lack a sense of accomplishment or excitement to a game, I've found.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Athrawes

[yukishiro1]

8 minutes ago, kahadin said:

Bottomline up front: Windy Wendy doesn't get +3" choose to pile in range (like seeker cavalcade). This means you have to charge with them. This means your opponent can choose to retreat on their turn if they even want to.

I'll be straight, I'd laugh at any chump that tried this. If it makes people play multiple threats on the table instead of just death stars I'd be happy to see it. Even without locking units out of swinging back using 2 units to lock up a unit has always existed. You don't see it because its a bad exchange.

The victim can either continue sitting on his objective or retreat to the objective you stopped him from reaching. Or bring in another threat to kill those chumps. If the chumps retreat in the victim's shooting phase then it only frees the victim unit to charge something.

The opponent can retreat on their turn either way, so I dunno what that really has to do with anything. All that changes is that the foxes can't get back onto the unit if they do retreat. 

I'm not sure you've really though this through re: the last paragraph. Only an idiot would use a fox to lock someone who's already on an objective and happy to sit there, and you're not going to be able to get onto an objective that has any enemies on it (assuming you don't have retreat and charge) because you can't come within 3" of them if you retreat.  With the 36" threat range, there's a ton of room to use them to make someone unable to fight or to score. 

As I said before, I don't think you're actually going to see them much because the top of the meta is stuff that hard counters them. But acting like there isn't huge power in the ability to pile out to 2.9" and limit pile-in to 1" at the same time is just crazy. 

[yukishiro1]

13 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

Again, we disagree on the minutia, but are of the same mind on the broader point.

The 12" shooting move during opponents turns is obviously an oversight. And will/deserves to be removed/FAQ'd.

But I love that he can pile out 3" and reduce enemy pile in to 1". You may deride it as NPE but I call it a brilliant mechanic to force interesting choices on an opponent. Severieth is a threat, and if you can lock him in combat you HAVE to strike him first or risk him fleeing. It makes him an interesting piece to tempt a 2nd or third charge for lumineth players, when you know the enemy will charge you elsewhere on the board. He will make opponent make difficult decisions on combat order when they have more than 1 to pick, and that alone makes him a wonderful unit for the game. Both for lumineth, and opposing players alike. 

I feel you have a very narrow view on NPE, and tbh I think this mechanic makes the in game choices way more important/meaningful for opponents, and so improves the enjoyment of the game  by leaps and bounds.

I'm not saying you are wrong (NPE is personal) but please don't call it that, until you have had to make that choice in a game yourself to decided whether or not it made the game more exciting/interesting. playing against Sevireth (I believe) adds risk, and rarely does that lack a sense of accomplishment or excitement to a game, I've found.

The issue isn't that he'll run away if you get into him - the opponent would have to play terribly to let you get into him. It's almost irrelevant that he can escape because you're never going to have the chance to get to him in the first place. The issue is that he can get into you and then pile out to 2.9" and that unit is stuck being unable to fight or come within 3" of other enemy models until the fox is killed (unless you get a double turn). 

The pile-out is probably fine standing on its own; the limiting pile-in is definitely fine standing on its own. Combining them on the same model is problematic because it lets him completely shut down a combat unit that doesn't have 2" range on its weapons (and to only take hits from one model even if they do). Giving a model the ability - base, no CP required, no once-per-battle ability, just base - to stop a unit it's engaged with from being able to fight in melee (while still fighting itself too, thanks to 3" range) is the sort of thing that is very likely to produce frustrating play experiences. 

 

 

[kahadin]

6 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

As I said before, I don't think you're actually going to see them much because the top of the meta is stuff that hard counters them.

I'm just glad we agree. I'd go as far as to say khorne should have no problem with it either.

I've seen a few people playing with new LRL and it sounds like the NPE thing is exaggerated from the games we are seeing.

I hope that people who bring up NPE stuff can provide real examples and not just general ideas about who gets killed by LRL.

Maybe even some real LRL lists. Can someone post some lists of busted LRL? Then we can talk about that and objectively compare it to other armies lists and think about how we can counter the list with other armies. Maybe discuss tactics.

[Andalf]

The layers being offered up don’t sound too bad until making some lists with the idea in mind to break stuff a bit.

Severith alone I think is a fun challenge, but him +2 generic spirits and 3-4 ballista with Windchargers running amok and still room for Teclis is doable in a Helon army.  It’s sensitive to being outdropped, but with so many targets that pump out D3 damage shots, moving so fast and teleporting in/out of combat, I can’t think of many armies capable of shooting it off the board.   People didn’t like mass sentinels being able to take out their support characters but an army like this would be pretty demoralizing to see being setup across the table, even without battalions and going up to 8+ drops.
 

The complaints against Lumineth sound exactly like the ones taken against High Elves at the end of WHFB.  As pointed out, you really need to lean into something skewed with Lumineth in order to have enough redundancy that your house of cards doesn’t randomly collapse on you when you don’t get a spell through or you roll poorly for damage consistently from lots of D3 damage weapons or sunmetal mortals.  Because of this it’s pretty unlikely you’ll see more than two ‘temples’ tucked into one list, because the benefits don’t play broadly enough across your army or truly doesn’t fit the play style, which seems like you really need to be decisive about at list building.  Scinari, Vanari, Alarith and Hurakan can be seriously invested in, in many different ways, and it’s needing to think about how you’ll manage every TSN turning point in this particular matchup that has people overwhelmed more than anything, imho.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Andalf

[yukishiro1]

NPE isn't about stuff being overpowered, it's about the unpleasant experience of the game. There's a couple people here complaining about the power level of LRL, but most of the dissatisfaction seems to be with the play experience, not with the power level itself. 

[LuminethMage]

If auto-casting is such a problem (which you still can unbind, except if he uses one spell), why isn't there more outrage about priests? There is no interaction at all with their abilities. They get them or don't and that's that. Why do I see certain DoK players get all worked up about interactivity, when they have a lot of non-interactive abilities in their range? Why is not everyone else complaining about those? Why the focus on one model in one range? 

Generally speaking, why is there no outrage about other hero abilities which are all automatic abilities a hero get's and you can't do anything about most of them. A "spell" is just another label for an ability. Often spells do exactly the same thing as abilities, just have another flavor text. 

Why is there no outrage about run and charge abilities? Clearly they ignore an important core rule, and you can't do anything about them. 

Why not constantly complain about bravery shock immunity? Some ranges have them in every model. It's talked about from time to time, but I rarely see people getting too concerned up about this. 

I don't think, any of those are a problem, they contribute to the variety of the game, flavor, and sometimes make the player who has them feel powerful, which we all want. And sometimes they might make an opponent feel bad for a bit, or just aren't interactive. Not everything has to be. 

Teclis is one model in the range, and has one auto-unbind per turn. I'm honestly baffled how this can be such an issue. I can understand it won't win any awards for the most fun ability or something, but is this really such a problem? There are other auto-unbinds in the game, usually once per game. So Teclis, as a 660 model has 3 more per game, this really ruins the fun of the game? That one model in one range of around 24 possible factions you can meet has that one ability? There is really no fun in trying to win overcoming that? Luring the LRL player into mis-using it etc.?  

If it's really bothering someone that much, talk to your Lumineth opponent, if they have enough models, I'm sure they'll be happy to play without Teclis, at least some of the time. Many don't play with him at all. I don't think, some people having issues with it, are a valid reason for changing it. It doesn't seem OP so far. If Lumineth start dominating tournaments because of the way Teclis functions, then I think it would make more sense. It might be too strong (which is something at least somewhat objective), and it makes some players unhappy on top of it. Then GW better think about making some adjustments.

[yukishiro1]

If you're "honestly baffled" about how autocasting and autodispelling could be seen as NPE after reading the prior posts, I don't think any amount of talking about it is going to help. The rest of your comment is basically a big straw man  (nobody's saying Teclis is the only problem or that he ruins the entire game, a lot of people actually do think the lack of counterplay on prayers is stupid...I'm not going to bother going further, there's too many straw men here to be worth unpacking). 

If it makes you feel any better, it doesn't matter what I think (or what you think, for that matter), what matters is what the player base as a whole thinks. 

[kahadin]

@LuminethMage Don't you bring priests into this! Slaughter priests and warshrines are a very positive play experience. I've always felt good playing them on the table.

I will coin the acronym VPPE to describe priests.

In all honesty I think Teclis ' +1 cast/dispell and auto dispel is whats really bad. I have not been to scared of LRL casting, although eclipse is scary. However having a bonus to all your dispells and an auto per hero phase is rough. I will try to play a teclis game with my Tzeentch to see if it is really super oppressive or just a nuisance.

 

[novakai]

i mean they just nerf DoK's prayer to be only one prayer for a character so it was also a problem in it of itself

i would be careful of protecting things that require skewed list/ specific armies to counters it because that was the Petrfix elite problem from OBR and they had to change that because only certain armies could compete with them

Edited March 29, 2021 by novakai

[LuminethMage]

17 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

If you're "honestly baffled" about how autocasting and autodispelling could be seen as NPE after reading the prior posts, I don't think any amount of talking about it is going to help. The rest of your comment is basically a big straw man  (nobody's saying Teclis is the only problem or that he ruins the entire game, a lot of people actually do think the lack of counterplay on prayers is stupid...I'm not going to bother going further, there's too many straw men here to be worth unpacking). 

If it makes you feel any better, it doesn't matter what I think (or what you think, for that matter), what matters is what the player base as a whole thinks. 

I agree that what the player base a whole thinks is more important, and I'm sure that will be an important factor in GW changing things or not. I might even like what they do with the Lumineth more if they changed them, who knows. 

I'm still baffled, really, because I do not see that kind of outrage otherwise. I know, some people find prayers also boring, and in a general debate about for example AoS 3 we might actually agree, to totally do away with auto-abilities. I'd be fine with that for example. Although I'm also not bothered by prayers or other auto-abilities for the reasons I mentioned above. 

You say it's a straw man, but this what this thread is about after all - that Lumineth (and from the posts I see, a lot is connected to Teclis) are singularly worse than others although those hoften have similar abilities, and therefore only Lumineth have to be changed to make the game fun again. This is not a thread about general gameplay experiences or how to improve things generally (with some exceptions). It's some people wanting to change how Lumineth function simply because they don't like them (for all kind of reasons, including how they function now). And seem to take for granted that that is more worth than what people who bought and play the army think. Because supposedly it's a large part of the player base. Our only difference is that is seems to me that you take most of the critique at face-value as a genuine frustration about the rules alone (because that's probably correct in your case), where I have my doubts there. 

@kahadin sorry about that : ). I don't think priests need to be changed anyway : ), I'm wholly agnostic on that matter. How do you feel about your LoC? They can guarantee one spell/dispel with destiny dice. Automatically (if you didn't roll terribly with all your destiny dice). With 9 dice, maybe more if you use most of them for that. Is that an NPE? Have you had many negative feeling voiced from opponents about that? (genuine question). 

[kahadin]

Destiny dice are the original NPE. Old destiny dice were worse than the current ones. I think they are still a pain, but you now need to use 2 dice for casting dispelling or charges, so its not as bad as old DD because you can't just brute force as many rolls.

I stopped playing original Disciples because you could easily guarantee every vital roll in the game. Autocharge and dispell and cast 9 different roles if you were not maxing extra DD. I did not like it.

Current DD feels fair enough to me that I will play them. I only get NPE reactions against people that have never played Tzeentch before. I even had a nagash freak out when my 7 turned into a 12 on the LoC even though he was actually dominating magic all game other than that roll.

However after the first few times it happens people learn to live with it (Sometimes even in the same game). People hate Flamers more and incidentally they tend to get hyper mad about Slaughter priests if they are popping. I've had SPs just delete characters many times. People really hate that and often never get over it.

 

[yukishiro1]

Destiny Dice are actually a decent example of the way to do powerful effects correctly IMO - you make them limited. The balance was off previously when you could just use one for a double roll; it feels ok to me now that you have to use two for most powerful effects (a charge, a cast, a dispel), and you probably only have 3-4 that are high value to begin with, so basically you get two clutch effects from them, which feels powerful but tolerable to me. I actually made the point earlier that Teclis' auto successes would feel less frustrating if they were limited in some way. A large part of what people find oppressive about LRL is the way they just do their thing no matter what and there's little to nothing you can really do about it on the receiving end. Teclis just casts, there's not much you can do about it. Your wizards are basically useless unless you're a serious magic dom yourself, there's not much you can do about it. Sentinels just snipe out anything they want to snipe out, there's not much you can do about it. Etc etc. Even when you win, it tends to produce a not particularly satisfying game - oh hey, I won by sitting on the objectives for long enough doing nothing but dying that I won even though I got tabled. That's something that's fun the first time you do it, then never fun again. 

LRL are a lot like T'au in 8th edition 40k. You typically can't engage their castle (unless you're another ranged dom faction), you have to just try to win on the mission while feeding them suicide units to slow them down and limited their scoring (though I'm not sure that works now that Teclis gets an autocast teleport that can be used in combat).  It's not a way of playing the game that most people find enjoyable, especially in a game where you can shoot into combat and where terrain doesn't do anything. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Indecisive]

The NPE debate has totally lost me.
In any case, I'm recalling the Vince V video on the topic and naturally NPE is something that varies quite a like from person to person. Good video.

[Cronotekk]

Why are the new kangaroo archers better in melee than most melee cavalry lol

[LuminethMage]

23 minutes ago, kahadin said:

Destiny dice are the original NPE. Old destiny dice were worse than the current ones. I think they are still a pain, but you now need to use 2 dice for casting dispelling or charges, so its not as bad as old DD because you can't just brute force as many rolls.

I stopped playing original Disciples because you could easily guarantee every vital roll in the game. Autocharge and dispell and cast 9 different roles if you were not maxing extra DD. I did not like it.

Current DD feels fair enough to me that I will play them. I only get NPE reactions against people that have never played Tzeentch before. I even had a nagash freak out when my 7 turned into a 12 on the LoC even though he was actually dominating magic all game other than that roll.

However after the first few times it happens people learn to live with it (Sometimes even in the same game). People hate Flamers more and incidentally they tend to get hyper mad about Slaughter priests if they are popping. I've had SPs just delete characters many times. People really hate that and often never get over it.

 

Fair. That's what I think will happen. I can imagine some people don't like it the first few times they encounter it, because it's new, they aren't prepared, and of course it isn't the the most fun of abilities for your opponent. But in the end, I just think it's not that big of a deal. In case of Teclis, you can autocast 4 spells (which are still unbindable, so it's not 100% guaranteed, if you don't go for 1 single spell), but you still roll for a bunch of other spells, and can't force any other important rolls during the game. 

I have played Teclis one time so far, because someone wanted to play against him to see how it is (and probably because he is nice, knows I have painted him, and wanted to give me a chance to field him). I found it fun, because it's different, but also stressful because of all the options. With the new units my main list won't include Teclis, but I might bring him from time to time for a different experience or if someone wants it. 

I'd be really interested how the match goes for you, if you find the time please let me know. Tzeentch against Teclis could also be fun for both sides I imagine. You might find his spell resistance more annoying, than all the auto-stuff : )

[yukishiro1]

Tzeentch vs LRL is a brutal match that is usually over by the end of T2. If someone - either side - gets the T1 to T2 double they just flat out win, almost guaranteed. Probably a 90% or better chance, it's one of the most lopsided exchanges in the game for the double turn. Conversely, if Tzeentch goes first and LRL don't get a double turn, that's an almost assured victory for Tzeentch too. The only time the match-up really feels balanced IMO is when LRL goes first and Tzeentch doesn't get the double. 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Beliman]

57 minutes ago, kahadin said:

Current DD feels fair enough to me that I will play them. I only get NPE reactions against people that have never played Tzeentch before.

That's what I was talking about in my posts!! NPE is 100% subjective, and when you accept that mechanic (so you have some games under your belt), it can become two things: 

1. If you find that it's just a "new mechanic to take in mind", you will play around it, like any "core" mechanic. That's what usually happens with specific army traits (bad moon, ambushes, move on hero phase, etc...).
2. If the mechanic feels OP (that varies from army to army and from player to player), it becomes toxic, something "unfair" to play against (NPE).

For armies that are build around using CPs (or they really need them for whatever reason), Total Eclipse seems unfair. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Beliman

[Indecisive]

Being hard to counter as in block total eclipse is a fair complaint but honestly command abilities are peak un-interactive and it's nice to see some counterplay rather than take the ability on the chin.

[yukishiro1]

For armies that need to use CP to work, Total Eclipse shuts them down with little to nothing they can do about it. For armies that rely on support heroes or defenses other than just buckets of wounds or FNPs, Sentinels shut them down with little to nothing they can do about it. For armies that rely on getting off a key spell, Teclis shuts them down with little to nothing they can do about it. For most melee armies (not all), the LRL castle basically shuts them down with little to nothing they can do about it besides suiciding units into it to hold it still while trying to win on the mission. This is why people don't like LRL more than they don't like other factions. Even Seraphon, undoubtedly a stronger army than LRL just in terms of raw power, doesn't shut people down this way. Seraphon still basically lets you play your game, it just plays its own game much better because it's playing with 2500 points worth of stuff that has been pointed at only 2000 because whoever set their points was incompetent. You lose, but you lose because your opponent just has more stuff than they should, not because you can't do what you want to do with your guys. 

 

[Beliman]

42 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

For armies that need to use CP to work, Total Eclipse shuts them down with little to nothing they can do about it. For armies that rely on support heroes or defenses other than just buckets of wounds or FNPs, Sentinels shut them down with little to nothing they can do about it. For armies that rely on getting off a key spell, Teclis shuts them down with little to nothing they can do about it.

100% agree, that's exactly what I pointed out before:

19 hours ago, Beliman said:

If I must make a bet (ignoring power-level, just NPE), I would say that Teclis is going to (still) be the main issue with so many new spell options (mainly Howling Gale and Transporting Vortex) followed by the usual Scyar battletrait and Sentinels gameplay and maybe Sevireth.

I think that we need to to wait (and play) to see if taking out Teclis and some sentinels to make room for rooriders, SunWukong and other new kits will be good for the game (or not).

Edit:

42 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

You lose, but you lose because your opponent just has more stuff than they should, not because you can't do what you want to do with your guys. 

For me, that's exactly what NPE means: Unfair, negative experience, etc... 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Beliman

[whispersofblood]

It seems to me most people don't actually know how pile-ins work... 

If a Spirit of the Wind model charges a unit with multiple models, the whole unit does not need to pile-in to the Spirit if there is a closer model anywhere on the board. This includes a pile-in to units you had not charged to begin with. 

You can also pile-in if a model moves within 3" of a unit. The defence is good on the board play, and positioning. Which is what we should be encouraging.

For the LRL player the Spirit is basically a delay and manuver unit, a very interesting addition to the game which has been to this point about trading. You can spend 130 or whatever and trade away your Windriders, spend 260 for the utility of 2 units or spend the same and have a model that you don't have to trade, but with all the weaknessess of being a single model.

Neither of them do any damage of consequence however outside of Helion. This is exactly the sort of stuff people have been asking for from units, utility in some other way then just doing more damage. 

As an aside, what armies "need" CP to function? My recollection of most factions would say that most command abilities are win more abilities, and most factions play off their allegiance abilities which are for the most part not interactive.

Edited March 29, 2021 by whispersofblood