How to resolve 2/d3 or more damage.

[Dream]

So if I hit and wound 3 times with a gore choppa, does my opponet roll 3 saves and take d3 damage for each failed save. OR does he take saves equal to the 3d3 damage, aka 1 saving throw per wound dealt?

[BaldoBeardo]

which model is it that you can take in a unit that moves 2 D6.
If i was following the wording of the rules then all the examples you just gave would be the same. a Model is moved by its move characteristic not a units.
A model makes the number of attacks equal to its attack chracteristic not as a unit.
and the same goes for damage.
not sure where *Fluff* came from i assume that was something someone else said.
Hints and tips are relevant but they are not part of the rules or a rules update.
The point im trying to make is that using them dosent bring us any closer to an answer because they are no more valid than yours or my own personal oppinion.
Im just trying to justify my oppinin based on whats contained within the rules not whats outside of it or in other games and i cant thinkof an instance where i woould role D6 for a model and not a unit where it dosent state it.
Im happy to be prooven wrong (Genuinely) i just cant find anything to make me think otherwise.

Chaos Spawn. M 2D6.
At this point, I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse.
The hints'n'tips as you rightly say are not part of the 4 page rules, but do provide commentary on it.
By your reasoning, deployment of battalions is done per unit as the explanation for doing it en masse aren't in the main rules.
Weapons have an attack characteristic, not a model. All models in the unit use the same weapon most.of the time. Number of attacks is determined by the weapon, not the model.
Same with damage.

It's simply not as cut and dried as you're asserting.

FWIW, I don't agree with the technical reading of the Hints'n'tips section (tl:dr, random values generated once and are universal), but as the rules themselves aren't clear on this then it's all we've got.
It's also (afaik) not how events have been played at WHW.

But that is the reason why this topic keeps coming up. There is no clear, discrete absolute that can be evidenced from a single source.

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[KHHaunts]

Not my intention at all. I think we will have agree to disagree as i dont want this to devolve to a warseer like argument like so many i saw on there.

My was merely stating my oppinion along with the reasons why that is so.

My oppinion wasent on all documents that arent rules(because what are warscrolls if not rules) but specifcally one that is titled as 'Hints & Tips' and what that title means to me.

as for the what attacks are determined by. Well thats as convuleted as the others and i still think that the wording in the rules themselves holds true until the warscrolls (Which i would include battalions into say otherwise)

Just my oppinon.

But let me apologize if my earlier comment came off as 'Snarky' certainly not my intention

[Nico]

Agreed - that is more intuitive. It does seem odd that GW have seemingly changed this in an ancillary part of the rules.

[BaldoBeardo]

Your opponent takes 3 saves.

You don't roll damage per attack, it's per weapon.

So if he fails saves, you roll a D3 *once* and that's how many wounds each attack from the weapon does.

So it's easier to determine D values for weapons before you attack, as you can still bulk-roll.

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[Azlak the Damned]

3 wounds

3 saves

D3 damage, so if no saves are made then actual damage will be between 3 and 9 depending on what you roll

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[Andreas]

46 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

You don't roll damage per attack, it's per weapon.

That is interesting I have never seen anyone play it this way. So you mean that if all three saves fails the damage could only be either 3, 6 or 9?

[BaldoBeardo]

To my reading, yes. Inflicting damage in the main rules doesn't actually say anything about this.

In the hints'n'tips sections of the battletomes, under random values, it explains the following;

For units with a random M value, you roll once per unit (makes sense).

For weapons with a random A value, you roll once per unit for that weapon type. Hoped I'd find a get out in the main rules based on the word "chosen".

Damage states you determine damage "for each weapon that inflicted damage".

Weapon, not attack.

I've been trying to find anything that contradicts this, as it's not how this has been done previously.

**edit** I've found a get-out for number of attacks being applied unit-wide, based around sequencing.

But random damage is still determined per weapon, not per attack even if you do that.

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[Andreas]

Ok I dont know what is the "right" way do it but I see your points.

Do also only roll once for random number of attacks, for example outriders repeter handguns?

[Dream]

10 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

 

 

To my reading, yes. Inflicting damage in the main rules doesn't actually say anything about this.

 

 

In the hints'n'tips sections of the battletomes, under random values, it explains the following;

 

 

For units with a random M value, you roll once per unit (makes sense).

 

 

For weapons with a random A value, you roll once per unit for that weapon type. Hoped I'd find a get out in the main rules based on the word "chosen".

 

 

Damage states you determine damage "for each weapon that inflicted damage".

 

 

Weapon, not attack.

 

 

I've been trying to find anything that contradicts this, as it's not how this has been done previously.

 

**edit** I've found a get-out for number of attacks being applied unit-wide, based around sequencing.

But random damage is still determined per weapon, not per attack even if you do that.

 

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Crazy, thanks for clearing up my question and teaching me something I didn't even consider!

[BaldoBeardo]

Ok I dont know what is the "right" way do it but I see your points.

Do also only roll once for random number of attacks, for example outriders repeter handguns?

I think the intent is yes, you roll once - but the wordings get jumbled. When I get a solid block of time (hopefully lunch) I'll try to pull together all the relevant bits and make a separate post for discussion in the rules forum.

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[Nico]

That's really interesting - actually makes random damage weapons better in some ways as you have a chance of a devastatingly lucky roll. Dragon Maw style attacks doing either 3 or 18 wounds is interesting. Certainly more dramatic that way!

[Azlak the Damned]

That is interesting I have never seen anyone play it this way. So you mean that if all three saves fails the damage could only be either 3, 6 or 9?

No. If opponent fails 3 saves and each wound causes D3 damage then minimum damage would be 3 (3 rolls of 1 or 2 on a D6). The maximum damage would be 9 (3 rolls of 5 or 6 on a D6). You could roll values for anything between 3 and 9 for example:

You roll 1 dice per wound (3 in total) and roll a 1, 2 and 4. A roll of 1 and 2 causes 1 damage each and a roll of 4 causes 2 damage therefore causing 4 damage.

You only make 1 save roll for every 1 wound roll that didn't fail, regardless of how much damage the weapon deals. Damage is always calculated after all save rolls are completed.

Hope this clears it up.

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[Nico]

Azlak - it looks like you've failed to read the cited section of the rules, which suggests that you don't roll the random value per attack, you do it for each weapon.

This is a sizable departure from the normal way of doing things.

[daedalus81]

You can take that double edged sword if you want.   Personally I think it would be foolish to do so for the chance of greater reward.  More dice will result in a more average and stable result.

[rokapoke]

Personally, I've found it more intuitive that each successful strike gets its own D3. So I make four successful wound rolls, my opponent saves one, and I roll 3D3 to determine damage, for a total of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9, depending on Lady Luck.

It may not be the letter of the law, but everyone I've ever played against had the exact same interpretation of the rule. In our eyes, that is the rule as intended. 

[Andreas]

When a rule could be interpreted in different ways always choose the way that seems more fun. I like to roll dice so in my opinion the way that allows you to roll more dice is more fun but I am not saying the other way is wrong.

[Terry Pike]

Could be the Flesheaters Court book. Will double check that and the Death Alliance book when home

[Caffran101]

From the Chaos FAQ:

 

Q: Does the Chaos Hellcannon do D6 mortal wounds per hit, or just 1D6 total?

A: Each Doomfire attack the Hellcannon makes that hits will deal D6 mortal wounds.

 

My reading is that you roll for each wound that goes through, not per weapon.

[Akempist]

Wait a minute...

There seem to be two arguments here:

So if I have a model that has 3 attacks and does D3 damage.... I successfully hit all 3 and successfully wound all 3 my opponent fails all 3 saves and then:

Argument 1) I roll D3 damage, as I am to roll damage per weapon.
Argument 2) I roll 3D3 damage, as I successfully wounded on all 3 attacks.

If I have a model that has 3 attacks and does 1 damage.... I successfully hit all 3 and successfully wound all 3 and my opponent fails all 3 saves and then:

Argument 1) I inflict 1 damage, as I inflict damage per weapon.
Argument 2) I inflict 3 damage, as I successfully wounded on all 3 attacks.

Are we seriously saying Argument 1 is correct?  Or are we 'rules lawyering' this?
 

There's no benefit to successfully wounding on all 3 attacks?  versus 2 or 1?  We'd do the same damage?  That smells fishy to me.

[Andreas]

The arguments are between 3D3 or 3*D3 (one roll). The average damage is the same. I think 3D3 is RAI and 3*D3 is RAW.

[Akempist]

20 minutes ago, Andreas said:

The arguments are between 3D3 or 3*D3 (one roll). The average damage is the same. I think 3D3 is RAI and 3*D3 is RAW.

Oh...did I misunderstand?

This was about whether .... what?  You roll 3 dice at the same time or one at a time?  I don't understand.  How is one roll of 3*D3 different than 3D3?

[rokapoke]

27 minutes ago, Akempist said:

Argument 1) I inflict 1 damage, as I inflict damage per weapon.
Argument 2) I inflict 3 damage, as I successfully wounded on all 3 attacks.

Are we seriously saying Argument 1 is correct?  Or are we 'rules lawyering' this?

I think you need to fire your lawyer. 

In your example, the damage for that weapon is 1. It wounds 3 times, so 3x1=3 damage.

The D3 example is still a question. How much damage does each wound deal? Is it 3x(single D3 roll) or (3 D3 rolls)? It can definitely be interpreted either way, but nobody is saying that regardless of how many wounds go unsaved that the weapon deals a total of D3 damage (which is what you're implying with the second example).

[Akempist]

2 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

I think you need to fire your lawyer. 

In your example, the damage for that weapon is 1. It wounds 3 times, so 3x1=3 damage.

The D3 example is still a question. How much damage does each wound deal? Is it 3x(single D3 roll) or (3 D3 rolls)? It can definitely be interpreted either way, but nobody is saying that regardless of how many wounds go unsaved that the weapon deals a total of D3 damage (which is what you're implying with the second example).

OHHHHHH.....thank you.  My bad.  That makes sense.

In that case, I don't care.

 

 

[Nico]

If Samantha Lee is on this thread, it would help if you posed your question on the FB Page by citing the wording in the Hints and Tips rules discussed in this thread. Otherwise it just seems like an obvious question. Just a suggestion.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

With the random damage. You roll separately for each successful attack.

From the rule:

4. Determine Damage: Once all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each successful attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon.

The Damage characteristic of the weapon is D3. So each successful attack rolls D3 damage.

Also bear in mind the hints and tips sections in battletomes aren't rules, so are not to be taken as such.