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How to resolve 2/d3 or more damage.


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Cool. So I have a unit with M of 2D6. There are 3 models in the unit. How far does it move?

I have a unit of 5 models with a weapon that has an A of D3. How many attacks do they generate?

I have inflicted 8 unsaved hits from a unit with weapons with a damage value of D3. How many damage do I add to the pool?

"Fluff" isn't a valid answer. Using only direct quotes from the rules, you cannot determine an unambiguous answer unless you make assumptions based on previous experience of how these mechanics work in other games.

Hence why the "Hints'n'tips" section of the Battletomes is relevant, and it goes against your statement of how things 'should' work.

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Personally, I've found it more intuitive that each successful strike gets its own D3. So I make four successful wound rolls, my opponent saves one, and I roll 3D3 to determine damage, for a total of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9, depending on Lady Luck.

It may not be the letter of the law, but everyone I've ever played against had the exact same interpretation of the rule. In our eyes, that is the rule as intended. 

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which model is it that you can take in a unit that moves 2 D6.

If i was following the wording of the rules then all the examples you just gave would be the same. a Model is moved by its move characteristic not a units.

A model makes the number of attacks equal to its attack chracteristic not as a unit.

and the same goes for damage.

not sure where *Fluff* came from i assume that was something someone else said.

Hints and tips are relevant but they are not part of the rules or a rules update.

The point im trying to make is that using them dosent bring us any closer to an answer because they are no more valid than yours or my own personal oppinion.

Im just trying to justify my oppinin based on whats contained within the rules not whats outside of it or in other games and i cant thinkof an instance where i woould role D6 for a model and not a unit where it dosent state it.

Im happy to be prooven wrong (Genuinely) i just cant find anything to make me think otherwise.

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which model is it that you can take in a unit that moves 2 D6.
If i was following the wording of the rules then all the examples you just gave would be the same. a Model is moved by its move characteristic not a units.
A model makes the number of attacks equal to its attack chracteristic not as a unit.
and the same goes for damage.
not sure where *Fluff* came from i assume that was something someone else said.
Hints and tips are relevant but they are not part of the rules or a rules update.
The point im trying to make is that using them dosent bring us any closer to an answer because they are no more valid than yours or my own personal oppinion.
Im just trying to justify my oppinin based on whats contained within the rules not whats outside of it or in other games and i cant thinkof an instance where i woould role D6 for a model and not a unit where it dosent state it.
Im happy to be prooven wrong (Genuinely) i just cant find anything to make me think otherwise.

Chaos Spawn. M 2D6.
At this point, I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse.
The hints'n'tips as you rightly say are not part of the 4 page rules, but do provide commentary on it.
By your reasoning, deployment of battalions is done per unit as the explanation for doing it en masse aren't in the main rules.
Weapons have an attack characteristic, not a model. All models in the unit use the same weapon most.of the time. Number of attacks is determined by the weapon, not the model.
Same with damage.

It's simply not as cut and dried as you're asserting.

FWIW, I don't agree with the technical reading of the Hints'n'tips section (tl:dr, random values generated once and are universal), but as the rules themselves aren't clear on this then it's all we've got.
It's also (afaik) not how events have been played at WHW.

But that is the reason why this topic keeps coming up. There is no clear, discrete absolute that can be evidenced from a single source.

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Not my intention at all. I think we will have agree to disagree as i dont want this to devolve to a warseer like argument like so many i saw on there.

My was merely stating my oppinion along with the reasons why that is so.

My oppinion wasent on all documents that arent rules(because what are warscrolls if not rules) but specifcally one that is titled as 'Hints & Tips' and what that title means to me.

as for the what attacks are determined by. Well thats as convuleted as the others and i still think that the wording in the rules themselves holds true until the warscrolls (Which i would include battalions into say otherwise)

Just my oppinon.

But let me apologize if my earlier comment came off as 'Snarky' certainly not my intention

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From the Chaos FAQ:

 

Q: Does the Chaos Hellcannon do D6 mortal wounds per hit, or just 1D6 total?

A: Each Doomfire attack the Hellcannon makes that hits will deal D6 mortal wounds.

 

My reading is that you roll for each wound that goes through, not per weapon.

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On 31/08/2016 at 11:51 AM, Nico said:

Azlak - it looks like you've failed to read the cited section of the rules, which suggests that you don't roll the random value per attack, you do it for each weapon.

This is a sizable departure from the normal way of doing things.

 

which section of the rules does it say that?

It definatley dosent say anything suggesting that in the determine damge section.

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On 28/10/2016 at 9:49 AM, Squirrelmaster said:

It's still more clearly worded than 8th edition was. It's just really counter-intuitive — a "Wound Roll", which uses the "To Wound" characteristic, does not cause wounds — it "causes damage".

Meanwhile, "Determining Damage" using the "Damage" characteristic, does not "cause damage" — instead, it "inflicts wounds".

So long as you ignore the section headings of the rules, and the names of the characteristics, it all makes perfect sense…

You could say the to wound roll inflicts (at least) a wound, and the damage roll determines exactly how many.

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Wait a minute...

There seem to be two arguments here:

So if I have a model that has 3 attacks and does D3 damage.... I successfully hit all 3 and successfully wound all 3 my opponent fails all 3 saves and then:

Argument 1) I roll D3 damage, as I am to roll damage per weapon.
Argument 2) I roll 3D3 damage, as I successfully wounded on all 3 attacks.

If I have a model that has 3 attacks and does 1 damage.... I successfully hit all 3 and successfully wound all 3 and my opponent fails all 3 saves and then:

Argument 1) I inflict 1 damage, as I inflict damage per weapon.
Argument 2) I inflict 3 damage, as I successfully wounded on all 3 attacks.

Are we seriously saying Argument 1 is correct?  Or are we 'rules lawyering' this?
 

There's no benefit to successfully wounding on all 3 attacks?  versus 2 or 1?  We'd do the same damage?  That smells fishy to me.

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With the random damage. You roll separately for each successful attack.

From the rule:

4. Determine Damage: Once all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each successful attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon.

The Damage characteristic of the weapon is D3. So each successful attack rolls D3 damage.

Also bear in mind the hints and tips sections in battletomes aren't rules, so are not to be taken as such.

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which section of the rules does it say that?
It definatley dosent say anything suggesting that in the determine damge section.

The "hints'n'tips" sections all contain this stuff explaining how and when random values are generated , but the wording creates logic ultra-knots.

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20 minutes ago, Andreas said:

The arguments are between 3D3 or 3*D3 (one roll). The average damage is the same. I think 3D3 is RAI and 3*D3 is RAW.

Oh...did I misunderstand?

This was about whether .... what?  You roll 3 dice at the same time or one at a time?  I don't understand.  How is one roll of 3*D3 different than 3D3?

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27 minutes ago, Akempist said:

Argument 1) I inflict 1 damage, as I inflict damage per weapon.
Argument 2) I inflict 3 damage, as I successfully wounded on all 3 attacks.

Are we seriously saying Argument 1 is correct?  Or are we 'rules lawyering' this?

I think you need to fire your lawyer. :D

In your example, the damage for that weapon is 1. It wounds 3 times, so 3x1=3 damage.

The D3 example is still a question. How much damage does each wound deal? Is it 3x(single D3 roll) or (3 D3 rolls)? It can definitely be interpreted either way, but nobody is saying that regardless of how many wounds go unsaved that the weapon deals a total of D3 damage (which is what you're implying with the second example).

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2 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

I think you need to fire your lawyer. :D

In your example, the damage for that weapon is 1. It wounds 3 times, so 3x1=3 damage.

The D3 example is still a question. How much damage does each wound deal? Is it 3x(single D3 roll) or (3 D3 rolls)? It can definitely be interpreted either way, but nobody is saying that regardless of how many wounds go unsaved that the weapon deals a total of D3 damage (which is what you're implying with the second example).

OHHHHHH.....thank you.  My bad.  That makes sense.

In that case, I don't care.

 

:P

 

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On September 1, 2016 at 6:00 AM, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

With the random damage. You roll separately for each successful attack.

From the rule:

 

The Damage characteristic of the weapon is D3. So each successful attack rolls D3 damage.

Also bear in mind the hints and tips sections in battletomes aren't rules, so are not to be taken as such.

For me this is the right answer (and what I would have expected in gameplay terms). 

The point about random rolls: I suspect move and number of attacks is "one roll" because it would be a nightmare to have individual models in a unit all rolling different move distances, or numbers of attacks (and then splitting those against multiple targets!). Whereas it's not hard to roll XD3 for X number of hits. It's actually also illogical seeming that a weapon that does D3 damage would do the same damage for all successful attacks and all models in a unit. It's silly if they don't FAQ this but my money is on 3*D3.

 

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...except they are intended as a guide to interpretation, and set the precedent that a) all random values for weapons except damage are generated when that weapon is chosen in an attacking step and applies to all such weapons in the unit, and b) "For Damage, generate a value for each WEAPON that inflicts damage."

That is not overruled by (or in conflict with) the rule you stated. The damage value of the weapon is (say) D3.

You roll once. That is the value you use for all resulting attacks.

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If Samantha Lee is on this thread, it would help if you posed your question on the FB Page by citing the wording in the Hints and Tips rules discussed in this thread. Otherwise it just seems like an obvious question. Just a suggestion.

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23 hours ago, Andreas said:

When a rule could be interpreted in different ways always choose the way that seems more fun. I like to roll dice so in my opinion the way that allows you to roll more dice is more fun but I am not saying the other way is wrong.

Increasingly I feel that this is the best answer in this thread. The rules for this game should serve two purposes: (1) get everybody on the same page, and (2) make the game fun. I'm in engineering, so math is kinda fun for me. Rolling dice, however, is more fun -- and part of the game experience. I would much rather be rolling 3D3 and hoping for lots of 5s and 6s (or watching my opponent roll 3D3 and hoping against the odds for all 1s and 2s) as this has a greater element of suspense.

 

On 8/31/2016 at 8:42 AM, daedalus81 said:

More dice will result in a more average and stable result.

This is, I believe, a great side effect of taking the "fun" route. That said, I've played a number of games where my opponent forgot to regress to the mean with plenty of amazing rolls and did a fair bit of steamrolling, but sometimes that's how the cookie crumbles.

 

Ultimately, I prefer the one-dice-per-successful-wound approach. If my opponent wants to do the latter, he/she can roll that way (or we can both agree to do one or the other). But if this debate prevents the game from being enjoyable, you've got a bigger problem than rule interpretation discrepancies. After all, the rules say to measure model-to-model and bases don't matter, but very few people ever actually listen to that.

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8 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Must be honest, one thing that I really wish worded better is the whole "wound" concept - wound becomes damage becomes wound etc.

GW should have changed "to hit", "to wound" etc along with other big changes for AoS.

Something like a sequence of...

Accuracy hit (old 'to hit'), power hit (old 'to wound'), normal save, damage, ability/trait saves, apply wounds.

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