How to resolve 2/d3 or more damage.

[Dream]

So if I hit and wound 3 times with a gore choppa, does my opponet roll 3 saves and take d3 damage for each failed save. OR does he take saves equal to the 3d3 damage, aka 1 saving throw per wound dealt?

[Caffran101]

Quote from another forum: " The new Death book features a mini faq in which it is stated clearly you must roll the damage multiple times. "

 

Presume this must be the Grand Alliance: Death book. Can someone who has this book confirm that this is the case?

[Squirrelmaster]

On 01/09/2016 at 4:27 PM, RuneBrush said:

Must be honest, one thing that I really wish worded better is the whole "wound" concept - wound becomes damage becomes wound etc.

It's still more clearly worded than 8th edition was. It's just really counter-intuitive — a "Wound Roll", which uses the "To Wound" characteristic, does not cause wounds — it "causes damage".

Meanwhile, "Determining Damage" using the "Damage" characteristic, does not "cause damage" — instead, it "inflicts wounds".

So long as you ignore the section headings of the rules, and the names of the characteristics, it all makes perfect sense…

[KHHaunts]

dont want to answer this question anymore X'@

 

[fartsocks]

On 28/10/2016 at 9:49 AM, Squirrelmaster said:

It's still more clearly worded than 8th edition was. It's just really counter-intuitive — a "Wound Roll", which uses the "To Wound" characteristic, does not cause wounds — it "causes damage".

Meanwhile, "Determining Damage" using the "Damage" characteristic, does not "cause damage" — instead, it "inflicts wounds".

So long as you ignore the section headings of the rules, and the names of the characteristics, it all makes perfect sense…

You could say the to wound roll inflicts (at least) a wound, and the damage roll determines exactly how many.

[MiniJunkie]

I asked on the GW AoS Facebook page and they answered D3 is rolled for each failed save. Not once and multiplied by failed saves.

 

so if you cause 4 unsaved wounds it could go something like

2+1+2+3=8 wounds (as an example). 

[KHHaunts]

 

On 31/08/2016 at 11:51 AM, Nico said:

Azlak - it looks like you've failed to read the cited section of the rules, which suggests that you don't roll the random value per attack, you do it for each weapon.

This is a sizable departure from the normal way of doing things.

 

which section of the rules does it say that?

It definatley dosent say anything suggesting that in the determine damge section.

[BaldoBeardo]

Hints and tips arent actually part of the rule set though. They are just that. Hints & tips (Hint:" a slight or indirect indication or suggestion."
That thing that has RULES in big letters over the top of it thats the bit people need to follow and the rules are much clearer.
 

Congratulations, you win snark points. [emoji8]

Please do point out in the RULES where all this is explained clearly.

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[KHHaunts]

18 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Congratulations, you win snark points.

Please do point out in the RULES where all this is explained clearly.

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Its not meant to be snarky but this whole time people have been using hints and tips to justify their reasoning that isent in the rules (Lower case since emphasis offends you)

The rules say " Each successful attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon" if the weapons characteristic is 1 then you inflict 1 wound for each attack. If its D6 you roll a d6 for each attack. If the damage characteristic was equal to your wound roll it would would be the wound roll of each attack. not each weapon.

Of course there is room for interpretation if your open minded enough there always is. No where in the rules does it say that i cant win the game by picking up my heaviest model and throwing it at my opponent dosent mean that its a good idea.

Dont accuse me of being snarky for trying to break this conversation which pops up again and again out of its usual spiral.

I think its clear so im telling you why. If i can convince anyone to agree then the post as done its job. Its not meant to conclusivly disproove all other oppinions.

[BaldoBeardo]

Cool. So I have a unit with M of 2D6. There are 3 models in the unit. How far does it move?

I have a unit of 5 models with a weapon that has an A of D3. How many attacks do they generate?

I have inflicted 8 unsaved hits from a unit with weapons with a damage value of D3. How many damage do I add to the pool?

"Fluff" isn't a valid answer. Using only direct quotes from the rules, you cannot determine an unambiguous answer unless you make assumptions based on previous experience of how these mechanics work in other games.

Hence why the "Hints'n'tips" section of the Battletomes is relevant, and it goes against your statement of how things 'should' work.

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[KHHaunts]

which model is it that you can take in a unit that moves 2 D6.

If i was following the wording of the rules then all the examples you just gave would be the same. a Model is moved by its move characteristic not a units.

A model makes the number of attacks equal to its attack chracteristic not as a unit.

and the same goes for damage.

not sure where *Fluff* came from i assume that was something someone else said.

Hints and tips are relevant but they are not part of the rules or a rules update.

The point im trying to make is that using them dosent bring us any closer to an answer because they are no more valid than yours or my own personal oppinion.

Im just trying to justify my oppinin based on whats contained within the rules not whats outside of it or in other games and i cant thinkof an instance where i woould role D6 for a model and not a unit where it dosent state it.

Im happy to be prooven wrong (Genuinely) i just cant find anything to make me think otherwise.

[BaldoBeardo]

which model is it that you can take in a unit that moves 2 D6.
If i was following the wording of the rules then all the examples you just gave would be the same. a Model is moved by its move characteristic not a units.
A model makes the number of attacks equal to its attack chracteristic not as a unit.
and the same goes for damage.
not sure where *Fluff* came from i assume that was something someone else said.
Hints and tips are relevant but they are not part of the rules or a rules update.
The point im trying to make is that using them dosent bring us any closer to an answer because they are no more valid than yours or my own personal oppinion.
Im just trying to justify my oppinin based on whats contained within the rules not whats outside of it or in other games and i cant thinkof an instance where i woould role D6 for a model and not a unit where it dosent state it.
Im happy to be prooven wrong (Genuinely) i just cant find anything to make me think otherwise.

Chaos Spawn. M 2D6.
At this point, I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse.
The hints'n'tips as you rightly say are not part of the 4 page rules, but do provide commentary on it.
By your reasoning, deployment of battalions is done per unit as the explanation for doing it en masse aren't in the main rules.
Weapons have an attack characteristic, not a model. All models in the unit use the same weapon most.of the time. Number of attacks is determined by the weapon, not the model.
Same with damage.

It's simply not as cut and dried as you're asserting.

FWIW, I don't agree with the technical reading of the Hints'n'tips section (tl:dr, random values generated once and are universal), but as the rules themselves aren't clear on this then it's all we've got.
It's also (afaik) not how events have been played at WHW.

But that is the reason why this topic keeps coming up. There is no clear, discrete absolute that can be evidenced from a single source.

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[KHHaunts]

Not my intention at all. I think we will have agree to disagree as i dont want this to devolve to a warseer like argument like so many i saw on there.

My was merely stating my oppinion along with the reasons why that is so.

My oppinion wasent on all documents that arent rules(because what are warscrolls if not rules) but specifcally one that is titled as 'Hints & Tips' and what that title means to me.

as for the what attacks are determined by. Well thats as convuleted as the others and i still think that the wording in the rules themselves holds true until the warscrolls (Which i would include battalions into say otherwise)

Just my oppinon.

But let me apologize if my earlier comment came off as 'Snarky' certainly not my intention

[KHHaunts]

16 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

 

 

which section of the rules does it say that?

It definatley dosent say anything suggesting that in the determine damge section.

Hints and tips arent actually part of the rule set though. They are just that. Hints & tips (Hint:" a slight or indirect indication or suggestion."

That thing that has RULES in big letters over the top of it thats the bit people need to follow and the rules are much clearer.

 

[KHHaunts]

I would also point out that you can split ATTACKS from each weapon. It dosent make any sense that you would roll a D6 for each attack as it hits different targets. Fluff wise each attack is a different strike and will damage differently.

Also it dosent say the word weapon once in the determine damage section of the rules. I admit it isent as clear as it should be but ive still heard far more arguments for d3/6 per attack than per weapon

[KHHaunts]

On 31/08/2016 at 3:12 AM, Dream said:

So if I hit and wound 3 times with a gore choppa, does my opponet roll 3 saves and take d3 damage for each failed save. OR does he take saves equal to the 3d3 damage, aka 1 saving throw per wound dealt?

 

On 31/08/2016 at 5:59 AM, Azlak the Damned said:

3 wounds

3 saves

D3 damage, so if no saves are made then actual damage will be between 3 and 9 depending on what you roll

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This quote answers the original question.

the confusion about how many D3/6's to roll is NOT explicitly stated in the core rules so dont let anyone say that it is its very much open to interpretation.

However there have been references in the FAQ's about rolling D6 per for each ATTACK ive never seen one that says per weapon.

i personally do it this way  ^

It does need clearing up once and for all in the next AOS FAQ

[MiniJunkie]

On September 1, 2016 at 6:00 AM, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

With the random damage. You roll separately for each successful attack.

From the rule:

 

The Damage characteristic of the weapon is D3. So each successful attack rolls D3 damage.

Also bear in mind the hints and tips sections in battletomes aren't rules, so are not to be taken as such.

For me this is the right answer (and what I would have expected in gameplay terms). 

The point about random rolls: I suspect move and number of attacks is "one roll" because it would be a nightmare to have individual models in a unit all rolling different move distances, or numbers of attacks (and then splitting those against multiple targets!). Whereas it's not hard to roll XD3 for X number of hits. It's actually also illogical seeming that a weapon that does D3 damage would do the same damage for all successful attacks and all models in a unit. It's silly if they don't FAQ this but my money is on 3*D3.

 

[Ratamaplata]

8 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Must be honest, one thing that I really wish worded better is the whole "wound" concept - wound becomes damage becomes wound etc.

GW should have changed "to hit", "to wound" etc along with other big changes for AoS.

Something like a sequence of...

Accuracy hit (old 'to hit'), power hit (old 'to wound'), normal save, damage, ability/trait saves, apply wounds.

[Nico]

Quote

Massive unit of Flamers getting a 3 from Kairos everytime!

Well once per game - good filthy combo!

[Terry Pike]

24 minutes ago, Nico said:

There aren't too many units that it would affect - most things with random damage are monsters

Massive unit of Flamers getting a 3 from Kairos everytime!

[Nico]

Quote

Yes, I'm completely aware this feels weird, and you may decide to play differently.

Yeah - as I've said earlier - it could have been intended as a timesaver. There aren't too many units that it would affect - most things with random damage are monsters - exceptions could be Kurnoth Hunters, Ushabti, Trolls and so on.

[BaldoBeardo]

Exactly. It specifies you only generate damage value after saves are failed.

There's no mechanic or precedent for tracking individual models in group rolling, and the rules for block-rolling only reinforce this reading.

Which makes me think that the rules are, in effect, random values are identical for same named weapon.

E.g. (can't think of a specific example )

Unit of gunmen with a ranged weapon A D3 and D D3.

You attack with the gun. You roll a 1 for the A.

You block roll 1 attack per model.

Enemy fails some saves, so now you generate the D value - you roll a 3.

Each unsaved hit inflicts 3 wounds.

The models may "own" their weapons, but the reading indicates that the profile for that weapon is identical across the unit - you just don't generate the random value until required.

Yes, I'm completely aware this feels weird, and you may decide to play differently. I'm still trying to convince myself there must be something I've missed.

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[Terry Pike]

That hints and tips makes it unclear lol.

I haven't seen or heard of anyone generating a damage roll once for an entire unit so was unaware it was even unclear. Could easily be cleared up with an FAQ though. It just seems wrong to generate the damage roll for an entire unit on 1 dice roll, especially when you could manipulate 1 dice to any number you liked. Kairos could make the Deceiver do 18 damage and kill an entire unit in 1 shot! (+1 attack sword and +1 to hit trait)

[RuneBrush]

2 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

One random attacks value applies to the whole unit.

Damage;

"For damage, generate a value for each weapon that inflicts damage."

*Weapon* not *attack*.

However, having typed that it might be even weirder.

Given the first part I quoted, it may actually mean that all identical weapons in a unit have the same D value.

None of the above contradicts the main rules, either. And nothing in the FAQ gives a clue either.

Of even more confusingly - a weapon "belongs" to a model.  So you roll damage on a per-model basis as the wielder of the weapon, so even though the whole unit may get a D3 roll of 2 attacks, you then have to roll two attacks for each model as the damage caused is different between that one and their mate... (please take this as not being serious just my brain going off in a random direction!)

Must be honest, one thing that I really wish worded better is the whole "wound" concept - wound becomes damage becomes wound etc.

[BaldoBeardo]

I'm still not seeing where you are getting the roll once for an entire unit from. Attacks and damage are done per model, why would the damage roll be any different.

Nothing in the basic rules specifies how random weapon values work, other than in terms of what "D6" or "D3" means.

So all we've got to refer to there - specifically - is the logic of generating the value when needed.

So far, so obvious.

Next up, we have the hints & tips sections of Battletomes (this one from BT: Sylvaneth).

"Random Values".

Attacks;

"Generate any random values for a weapon (except damage) each time it is chosen as the weapon for an attack. ROLL ONCE AND APPLY THE RESULT TO ALL SUCH WEAPONS BEING USED IN THE ATTACK. THE RESULT APPLIES FOR THE REST OF THAT PHASE."

The section I've emphasised is completely unnecessary and makes no sense if the intent is calculating A values on a per weapon, per model basis. The only reason for having the first sentence is to apply a single roll to the entire unit. The second sentence shoots down my original thought that "choosing a weapon" meant per model. So it doesn't matter if you resolve attacks start-to-finish one model at a time or bulk-roll.

One random attacks value applies to the whole unit.

Damage;

"For damage, generate a value for each weapon that inflicts damage."

*Weapon* not *attack*.

However, having typed that it might be even weirder.

Given the first part I quoted, it may actually mean that all identical weapons in a unit have the same D value.

None of the above contradicts the main rules, either. And nothing in the FAQ gives a clue either.

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[Grimnaud]

8 minutes ago, Caffran101 said:

Quote from another forum: " The new Death book features a mini faq in which it is stated clearly you must roll the damage multiple times. "

 

Presume this must be the Grand Alliance: Death book. Can someone who has this book confirm that this is the case?

I can confirm that there is indeed a mini faq in the Grand Alliance: Death book. Whether it helps or not I leave entirely up to you;

 

Generate any random values for a weapon (except Damage) each time it is chosen as the weapon for an attack. Roll once and apply the result to all such weapons being used in the attack. The result applies for the rest of that phase. For Damage, generate a value for each weapon that inflicts damage.