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Posted (edited)

One thing that's bothering me is the lack of Crimson Court everywhere.

Sold out, but managed to get Gorath on ebay for a conversion. 

After reading a few previews of the tome, yep im going legion of blood. 

Vamp Lord

3x10 Skellies

1x Dire Wolves

1X Zombie Dragon

For 750.

Full on skellie hordes.

Correct me if I'm wrong is the vargskyr just Vyrkos blood line and it need to be taken with the Cursed City set? 

That's a bit ridiculous. :(

Edited by Sete
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3 hours ago, Siphon said:

So I’ve got ten black knights I never built when I was looking to jump into Nighthaunt a while back.  What does everyone think about building them as Hexwraiths and allying them in now that we have seen the Black Knight warscroll.  
 

I’ve also got a Black Coach (because it’s gorgeous) and am having trouble deciding between using it as a Black Coach ally or doing some conversion work with the new Vampire Lord and turning it into a Coven Throne.  
 

Opinions?

paint em red and use them as bloodknights

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3 minutes ago, Clewzy said:

Do we have to max out skeletons for them to be viable? How do people think a unit of 20 will stand up?

Skeletons are at their best just before they are wiped out. I think you want to maximise their chances of not getting cleared in one blow, so 30 I'd say is the best option. 

They also don't like small chip damage, or shooting and magic. So again, max unit size will help you heal those up on your turn. 

I wouldn't say 20 is bad, but 30 is significantly more survivable, which is what you're taking skeletons for. 

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Posted (edited)

Here is my try on 2000 points Kastelei:

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Belladama (200)

Vengorian Lord (280)

- Rousing Commander, Fragment of the Keep


Battleline
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)

10 x Blood Knights (390)
10 x Blood Knights (390)

Total: 1985 / 2000

Thinking about maybe replacing 20 wolves with 30 skellies or 40 zombies+ Command Point. But like that synergy between Belladama+ Wolves. And Zombies doesn’t do much without support.

what do you guys think?

Edited by Erdemo86
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, warhammernerd said:

First list.

Kinda old skool, mixed arms and a lotta fun. 65pt hike on previous build, BUT, black knights as battleline is win win win. 

5C3468B1-1343-4C25-B407-9B976876A6C3.jpeg

...

alas black knights suck really hard as kinda of does the wight king. If i were to deathrattle i would just pick skellies as an anvil and grave guard as the hammer 

50 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Here is my try on 2000 points Kastelei:

...

what do you guys think?

Love it. It is very similar to mine, difference being i swap vhordrai and 10 wolves for 6 vargheists and another vengorian but this looks amazing too. Prince V is gonna slap some pee-pees

Edited by Raptor_Jesues
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1 hour ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

alas black knights suck really hard as kinda of does the wight king. If i were to deathrattle i would just pick skellies as an anvil and grave guard as the hammer 

They have a worse save, and less output - yes. But, they are skeletons on skeletal horses which come back after they’ve died, what’s not too like? They also do a much better job of acting as a mobile screen than skeles or zombros. Direwolves are, in all honesty better. But, Black Knights are deathrattle and can be made to pile in and attack twice.... 

But really, in this list they are a bit pants. They are best in Vykros, and in Deathmarch and with a ton of buffs. But equally, I sorta feel fine with them being a bit pants.

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1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

Here is my try on 2000 points Kastelei:

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Belladama (200)

Vengorian Lord (280)

- Rousing Commander, Fragment of the Keep


Battleline
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)

10 x Blood Knights (390)
10 x Blood Knights (390)

Total: 1985 / 2000

Thinking about maybe replacing 20 wolves with 30 skellies or 40 zombies+ Command Point. But like that synergy between Belladama+ Wolves. And Zombies doesn’t do much without support.

what do you guys think?

I think with 1inch reach and the big cavalry bases,  you will really struggle to get 10 blood knights into combat. You also don't have any command abilities that actually buff them in a targeted way so there is basically no downside to splitting them up.

At minimum I would go 4x5 knights instead. But moreso, I would probably drop 5 and get even more chaff. You may want to have a smaller, more elite army, but I think even more wolves or some zombies will do you every well. 

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24 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I think with 1inch reach and the big cavalry bases,  you will really struggle to get 10 blood knights into combat. You also don't have any command abilities that actually buff them in a targeted way so there is basically no downside to splitting them up.

At minimum I would go 4x5 knights instead. But moreso, I would probably drop 5 and get even more chaff. You may want to have a smaller, more elite army, but I think even more wolves or some zombies will do you every well. 

agreed, bloodknights need to be taken in 5

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I am trying to build a list around a big Grave Guard block, because for me that's these guys, which are still some of my favourite models:

20210516_121652.jpg.2391b8dc9fee13e08b54adba8a78c708.jpg

 

I am working from the assumption that bonuses to hit, wound and save will be capped at +1 in the near future and that Mystic Shield will give +1 to saves.

There are a lot of choices to make:

20 or 30 Grave Guard?

Grave Guard only have 1" reach so getting lots of them into combat can by tricky. It might be worth considering taking just 20 and adding a screen instead of the last 10.

Shields or Great Weapons?

Great Weapons deal about 30% more damage, but shields give +1 to saves. That is a big improvement from a 5+. I think when building around Grave Guard, making sure that their save is at least a 4+ is important. But that does not necessarily mean shields are better, since you can also get that 4+ through command abilities and probably Mystic Shield and that rumoured charge reaction.

Here's a damage comparison for 20 guys:

Save Great Weapons Shields
2+ 13.33 10.37
3+ 17.78 13.33
4+ 22.22 16.3
5+ 26.67 19.26
6+ 31.11 22.22
- 31.11 22.22

 

To me, this shows that Great Weapons don't especially need offensive buffs. They can generally wipe units of equal size without them. Shields do need some kind of buff, though, mostly to deal with low saves. Both perform well against 3+ and 2+ because of their mortals.

Here's the same comparison, but in Vyrkos:

Save Great Weapons Shields
2+ 16.3 11.85
3+ 22.22 15.56
4+ 28.15 19.26
5+ 34.07 22.96
6+ 40 26.67
- 40 26.67

 I think the +1 to wound from Vyrkos allegiance is arguably already enough of a boost to Shields to acceptable hammer levels.

That gives us a first use case: 20 or 30 Grave Guard with Shields in Vyrkos are a good all round hammer that does not need extra support. They do need some character nearby for the +1 to wound, though, but it can be a cheap one like a Necromancer or Kritza.

What allegiance?

If you are building around Grave Guard, there are really only two choices: Vyrkos or Legion of Blood.

In Vyrkos, you do not need to give your Grave Guard +1 to wound. Mystic Shield also goes off easier because of the cast bonuses.

In Legion of Blood, Deathrattle units take no negatives to hit or wounds, which is good but match up dependent. What makes Legion of Blood really interesting are their command traits and artefacts: Reroll charges helps with the low speed of Grave Guard and 6" pile ins will get more of them into combat. Legion of Blood also has a generally good + 1 to saves artefact.

Which support hero?

Grave Guard are 420 (blaze it) points for 30. I think supporting them with morr than one hero makes them uneconomical. So what support options are there?

Necromancer

The humble Necromancer gives us Vanhel's Danse Macabre, which is always great! He can also cast debuff spells from the Lore of Deathmages to blunt enemy charges. He is slow, though, so he's only good if you are planning to march your Grave Guard up thr board normally, not gravesite-deepstrike them.

Vampire Lord

The Vampire Lord provides a reliable +1 attacks via his command ability. This is just about the strongest offensive buff on Grave Guard, about equivalent to +1 to hit and wound. Extremely good with Shields in Vyrkos: you get +1 to wound and saves, and can still layer an offensive buff on top. 20 Grave Guard with Vampire Lord support don't break the bank, either, at 420 points.

Vengorian Lord

Pricy at 280 points, but lets you stack two defensive buffs with rend reduction and +1 to save. He can also be built very defensively himself, sitting on a natural 3+ ignore rend -1 save and 10 wounds. You can give him the Chamon or Shyish realm artefact for even more defense (reroll 1s, ignore another level of rend).I

Since he's mobile with his 12" flying move, he can support Grave Guard even if you deep strike them. He sometimes gets run+charge and can sitationally heal d6 with his CA. Use him to charge stuff that would otherwise threaten your Grave Guard and let them finish it off later.

I like this guy in Vyrkos with Great Weapons. He provides rend negation, mystic shield and healing. Vyrkos Grave Guard are already murder machines without any offensive buffs, so they complement each other well. 700 points all in all for the Vengorian and 30 Grave Guard, but they are a big threat.

Incidentally Vyrkos allows you to run a VLoZd that captures for 14 mode!s, so your opponent will have to deal with two big threats fairly imminently. My personal build-around pick if you really want to go all in on Grave Guard.

Coven Throne

310 points, but gives you all your buffs at once with it's CA. That means it pairs best with Great Blades in Legion of Blood. There, it can also provide reroll charges to them and get itself on a 3+ save with through the Soulbound Garments artefact.

Might be a sleeper hit if the mechanics of AoS 3 make debuff immunity and extra battleshock casualties more relevant.

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In case of the Vyrkos Bloodborn I'm actually wondering why GW wasn't able to create a 5 or 10 model box for them making including them as a regular unit to the game and make them Battleline in a Vyrkos Army. We have so many Vyrkos Heroes but no real troup choices to really create a Vyrkos Army

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37 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I think with 1inch reach and the big cavalry bases,  you will really struggle to get 10 blood knights into combat. You also don't have any command abilities that actually buff them in a targeted way so there is basically no downside to splitting them up.

At minimum I would go 4x5 knights instead. But moreso, I would probably drop 5 and get even more chaff. You may want to have a smaller, more elite army, but I think even more wolves or some zombies will do you every well. 

Counterpoint: You can always try to charge two units at once with a big cavalry squad. Since you can buff a big unit more easily, they can be overall more deadly on a per-model basis that way.

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Just now, EMMachine said:

In case of the Vyrkos Bloodborn I'm actually wondering why GW wasn't able to create a 5 or 10 model box for them making including them as a regular unit to the game and make them Battleline in a Vyrkos Army. We have so many Vyrkos Heroes but no real troup choices to really create a Vyrkos Army

Yeah, all our standard battleline are not really good at absorbing offensive buffs. Even in Vyrkos you'll want to run some Blood Knights or Vargheists at the moment. Direwolves just can't be made offensive, especially if AoS 3 removes buff stacking since they get +1 to hit and wound on their warscroll and won't be buffable beyond that.

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24 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

In case of the Vyrkos Bloodborn I'm actually wondering why GW wasn't able to create a 5 or 10 model box for them making including them as a regular unit to the game and make them Battleline in a Vyrkos Army. We have so many Vyrkos Heroes but no real troup choices to really create a Vyrkos Army

That's the one thing that gives me a glimmer of hope for a second wave release. However long it takes them to split up the units from Cursed City into separate sprews, maybe make some changes in the book and then release. There are just so many great kits there and SUCH A HUGE CHUNK of our book is dedicated to Cursed City stuff. 

 

23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Yeah, all our standard battleline are not really good at absorbing offensive buffs. Even in Vyrkos you'll want to run some Blood Knights or Vargheists at the moment. Direwolves just can't be made offensive, especially if AoS 3 removes buff stacking since they get +1 to hit and wound on their warscroll and won't be buffable beyond that.

Tbh I like that in a Soulblight army. Blood Knights and Vargheists should be our bread and butter just as much as zombies and skeletons are. 

In a way, wolves are the niche exotic unit. 

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26 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Counterpoint: You can always try to charge two units at once with a big cavalry squad. Since you can buff a big unit more easily, they can be overall more deadly on a per-model basis that way.

True, but his list doesn't actually have any of those buffs- there is the generic RR1's command ability, and belladona's exploding 6's. Not a ton really. The other buffs available in his list are AOE, like the rousing commander thing. For AOE buffs, its actually easier to fit in 2x smaller units - you could always fit them together, but it also gives you the option that at least half get the buff 

 

Unrelatedly, I think people are still sleeping on Mannfred as an brokenly good model. His command ability is solid, but more importantly, the retreat from combat thing is outrageously powerful. He will either be in literally every competitive list or nerfed.

 

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2 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

Tbh I like that in a Soulblight army. Blood Knights and Vargheists should be our bread and butter just as much as zombies and skeletons are. 

In a way, wolves are the niche exotic unit. 

I think it's thematic, too. Skeletons, zombies and wolves should probably be worse offensively than living humans in the fiction. It's always a bit weird when dying in a fantasy world is essentially an upgrade.

But at the moment I still see a lot of people trying to make our battleline into hammers. Particularly zombies, but occasionally Direwolves, too. Personally, I think that's the wrong approach. I would not give any of our unconditional battleline offensive buffs. They all have terrible combat profiles. I think it's just a bad use of points/command points.I

Exceptions are +1 attacks from the battalion for zombies and Vanhel's on skeletons, since it double heals them.

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6 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Unrelatedly, I think people are still sleeping on Mannfred as an brokenly good model. His command ability is solid, but more importantly, the retreat from combat thing is outrageously powerful. He will either be in literally every competitive list or nerfed.

This is often the way with abilities that are fundamentally un-Mathhammer-able. A lot of players will look at that and think "Well that doesn't let me kill more, why would I use it?" And it's a fair question, in many ways - you're spending a lot of points on Mannfred, so you want him to be "making his points back" by killing stuff. But that ability will absolutely win games... just not in an easily quantifiable way. The internet tends to gloss over abilities like that.

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Posted (edited)

From the leaks their are some quite strange concept looking at the 5 Dynastys.

  • Mannfred who has focus on Necromancers gets Vargheist as Battleline
  • Neferata who uses vampires gets Black Knights instead of Blood Knights
  • Kastellai most likely makes sense as a vampiric order.
  • Vyrkos didn't even get the Vyrkos Bloodborn as a real vampire unit.
  • Avengorii would have been the army where Vargheist as Battleline would have made most sense (looking at the picture below) but getting Terror Gheist and Zombie Dragons for some reason

USasioqHnDcZVmTr.jpg

Edited by EMMachine
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6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think it's thematic, too. Skeletons, zombies and wolves should probably be worse offensively than living humans in the fiction. It's always a bit weird when dying in a fantasy world is essentially an upgrade.

That's an interesting one, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. If living humans are better at fighting than skeletons, why bother raising skeletons? The vampires already have to keep plenty of humans around anyway, might as well make them fight too. If they die, you can still raise them if you want. Plus, any that manage to distinguish themselves in battle could be changed into vampires with existing combat experience, which seems like it would really work for the Kastelai at least.

I think, crucially, dying is very much not an upgrade for the individual involved. Nobody is out there thinking "I wish I was better at fighting... I know! I'll become a skeleton!" Someone else is making that choice for them, and generally after they've already died.

Plus, I think there are inherent combat advantages to being a supernatural creature that can't feel pain, bleed, faint, and so on. And which has no mind of its own to second-guess its commander, or run away to save its own skin. That single-minded determination to kill with no regard to their own safety is a big boost, even if they can't swing a sword as skilfully as a human.

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13 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

This is often the way with abilities that are fundamentally un-Mathhammer-able. A lot of players will look at that and think "Well that doesn't let me kill more, why would I use it?" And it's a fair question, in many ways - you're spending a lot of points on Mannfred, so you want him to be "making his points back" by killing stuff. But that ability will absolutely win games... just not in an easily quantifiable way. The internet tends to gloss over abilities like that.

I also think there is just not a lot to talk about with Mannfred, because he's really quite self-sufficient. Slap him into basically any list in any dynasty and he will do work. His buffs are nice, but if he's permanently attached to any unit he's wasting his great teleport.

Here's some cool Mannfred tech, though: If you charge him in and then teleport him out of combat, you still get a pile-in with him. That is great on battleplans where heroes need to move onto objectives to capture.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

If living humans are better at fighting than skeletons, why bother raising skeletons?

I think the game currently explains that quite well: Skeletons are kinda bad at fighting, but they get back up when you knock them down and know no fear.

Plus, in AoS, there are whole kingdoms of walking skeletons around. Shyish is lousy with them, anyway. Might as well put them lazy bones to work. It's not like you can drink their blood.

Edited by Neil Arthur Hotep
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