Mdels coming 'Back to life' - Re-enforcment

[Paul Buckler]

For example Skaar Bloodwrath.

 

When he comes back to life is he a 'new' model or just and old unit that returns.  So would you have to set aside points for him.

 

Same for Death units using the ring, do they have to have points set aside?

 

 

 

[KHHaunts]

3 hours ago, Stefan said:

But I take it that the skeleton standard and the courtiers mustering (not exeeding starting models of course) is still for free, can't find anything in the new FAQ that says otherwise.

 

yes. the handbook Says fairly clearly:

reinforcements to existing units dont cost points.

New units do.

So undead banners and Wanderer spell weaver unique spell dont cost points.

Summoning and rebirth artifacts (possibly with the exception of tyrion im still unsure about him) do cost

[Squirrelmaster]

Nothing in the rules indicates that artefacts work differently from abilities on a warscroll.

[Nico]

The FAQ answer you are referring to about Bret Archers and Yeoman has been deleted as far as I can tell in the newest FAQ and rightly so.

Probably because it was being taken out of context by people to obstruct purposive interpretation or to stop people trying to work out what one ability means by looking at one or two other ones (i.e. normal behaviour). 

That (now deleted) answer said "confer" meaning on another Warscroll, which seemed very specific to the context of the question.

[BaldoBeardo]

No, that one was an errata. FAQs and Erratas are provided by GW in the same document, and they haven't always been good about distinguishing them, but Erratas change the existing rules (correcting errors), while FAQs only clarify what the existing rules mean (supposedly).

Apologies, was attempting to make the spread as broad as possible. Arguing that it's too broad is quite funny in context.


This is under the rules FAQ, page 6.

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[Squirrelmaster]

7 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

FAQ also states no rule implies meaning on any other.
That in mind, all the FAQ confirms is that unpointed upgrades that provide resurrection do cost reinforcement points.

1. Could you help me by pointing out where the FAQ says that.
2. All the FAQ definitely, explicitly, confirms is that the Ring of Immortality costs reinforcement points. That implies that the existing rules should be interpreted in such a way as to make that true. Nothing in the existing rules or FAQ indicates that "unpointed" rules should work any differently from "pointed" ones, there is no basis in the rules for claiming that the ring works differently from any other resurrection, so the only sensible interpretation is that all resurrection abilities cost reinforcement points.

5 minutes ago, Nico said:

The Tomb Herald exploit was removed for balance reasons, which required rewriting the rule (major surgery) within an FAQ.

No, that one was an errata. FAQs and Erratas are provided by GW in the same document, and they haven't always been good about distinguishing them, but Erratas change the existing rules (correcting errors), while FAQs only clarify what the existing rules mean (supposedly).

[BaldoBeardo]

...because the change to the ring is specific to the general's handbook as it references matched play, reinforcement points and Death artefacts. None of which exist outside the GHB.

FAQ's are also almost invariably driven by balance by their very nature - to clarify ambiguity, which normally arises from argument a Vs argument b.


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[Nico]

Quote

FAQs are clarifications and not balance driven. It simply picking how the rule is interpreted. They have full power to do a balance change such as the allienge errata, Balewind vortex rewording, and adding points to none allegiance sylvaneth tree summoning. 

This is usually true but definitely not always true.

We know that the nerf to the Death 5+ Ward that came out within hours or days of the GH was balance driven - yet that was done in an FAQ.

The Tomb Herald exploit was removed for balance reasons, which required rewriting the rule (major surgery) within an FAQ.

We know full well that the Ring has been singled out for balance reasons.

We know that the rewrite of the core rules (putting an extremely narrow meaning on "as if it were the X phase") to nerf Free Spirits is balance driven as well (not least because the rule refers specifically to that rule. I would have just tripled the cost of the Battalion personally - especially since the actual change has indirectly buffed Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz.

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, Nico said:

You could argue this - e.g. Vlad and then onwards from there. However, the way they have done it - by calling out the Ring in the heart of the question (rather than stating a general principle and then saying that for example the Ring does cost points) could be taken as a balance-driven change that is specific to the Ring itself. 

FAQs are clarifications and not balance driven. It simply picking how the rule is interpreted. They have full power to do a balance change such as the allienge errata, Balewind vortex rewording, and adding points to none allegiance sylvaneth tree summoning. 

As note chaos has changes specific to them placed in the Chaos PDF. This FAQ is in the general rules section and applys to the generals hand book and its interpretation. 

 

[Nico]

Quote

Same argument was used for the ring. GW have ruled that the ring costs points. They haven't errata'd it to change the wording, so that implies that any other rule with the same wording also costs points.

You could argue this - e.g. Vlad and then onwards from there. However, the way they have done it - by calling out the Ring in the heart of the question (rather than stating a general principle and then saying that for example the Ring does cost points) could be taken as a balance-driven change that is specific to the Ring itself. 

[Sadysaneto]

Actually, no.

To make it short - if you add a new unity you pay.

If you "regen or ressurect", an existing unit, you dont have to pay.

 

Or even shorter version:

 

Add unit? Pay point, add model? Then, dont

[KHHaunts]

54 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I think the general consensus is that as you can only have one of a named character in your army in matched play, any character abilities (Skarr and Vlad) that bring them back to life have their "summon" points built into their base cost.  Named characters are listed in the GHb tables which implies that it is the same unit.

Yeah i personally would agree with that 100%

hopefully we can just put a reference when the next FAQ pops up

[mmimzie]

it seems fair that if its a unit reviving itself. its the same unit as its regening models

[RuneBrush]

31 minutes ago, KHHaunts said:

As for respawn character its not as clear as they are all worded differently. For tyrion for instance is specifically says that if you use the heart of averlord he is not slain. But for Skarr and Vlad it dosent.

I think the general consensus is that as you can only have one of a named character in your army in matched play, any character abilities (Skarr and Vlad) that bring them back to life have their "summon" points built into their base cost.  Named characters are listed in the GHb tables which implies that it is the same unit.

[KHHaunts]

11 hours ago, jamierk said:

Has this question been answered by FAQ or at least could any TOs weigh in if it has come up and your tournment and how it has been ruled? I'm building a phoenix list and need to decide on whether flamespyre is worth his points or not.

 

Thanks

 

Jamie

 

9 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

If the ability is on the unit's warscroll, then it is part of the unit itself and included in the points.
If the ability is gained from another warscroll, then you're looking at reinforcements.
That's not official, but the only hard'n'fast I've seen that makes sense.

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I agree with this . However it is confirmed on page 108 of the generals handbook.

"Spells or abilities that allow you to add models to exisitng units dont cost you reinforcement points. however in pitched battle, spells or abilities cannot increase the number of models in a unit to more than it had to start"

That covers things like undead banners and spellweavers respawn spell.

As for respawn character its not as clear as they are all worded differently. For tyrion for instance is specifically says that if you use the heart of averlord he is not slain. But for Skarr and Vlad it dosent.

The only reference i can find in the faq (And this dosent make it official its just might lend some weight) is a section that asks if Skarr dies and respawns does the it count in the glories victory rules? The answer to which is no. Not an official answer i know but in my mind that implies that he isent actually slain outright.

But no ive looked through both Faq's and there is nothing specifiacally refering to whether its the "Same" unit or not. But the first FAQ was done before the handbook so . . . .

[BaldoBeardo]

If the ability is on the unit's warscroll, then it is part of the unit itself and included in the points.
If the ability is gained from another warscroll, then you're looking at reinforcements.
That's not official, but the only hard'n'fast I've seen that makes sense.

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[jamierk]

Has this question been answered by FAQ or at least could any TOs weigh in if it has come up and your tournment and how it has been ruled? I'm building a phoenix list and need to decide on whether flamespyre is worth his points or not.

 

Thanks

 

Jamie

[mmimzie]

15 hours ago, Nico said:

 

Your approach would also lead to an absurd unfairness, in that the Sylvaneth item Seed of Rebirth wouldn't cost points, but the ring of immortality would do, even though these are functionally the same (although the ring also tacks on a teleport).

 

I'll touch on this first as it got most of the points in it.

First, slyvaneth is a more specific allegiance than grand alliance of death and so it should have more powerful bonuses to trade off for the loss of flexibility.

 

Second, if we read things based on whats fair that would be silly, in consistant, and put us back in the world of no points more or less.

 

Third, the ring of immortality if both were free has a MUCH stronger effect than the seed of rebirth. The seed of rebirth may as well be +d3 wounds. Meaning you have to roll higher than the over kill damage to stay alive. The ring of immortality simply let you reset them up else where.

 

15 hours ago, Nico said:

 

I would also add that bringing back a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with D3 wounds left is not the same thing as bringing back a replacement unit, i.e a full 14 wound model.

 

Yes this means the artifact has different strengths on different models. Same with red fury.  on an on foot vampire lord those d3 wounds just mean more and cost less, and on your general they let you retain ruler of the night longer than you would otherwise which si pretty important. Jsut as red fury is a alot stronger on a VLoZD than on a VL or Necro, the ring is stronger on a VL or Necro than on a VLoZD

 

15 hours ago, Nico said:

I don't think you do.

For example, it's not consistent with the answer to this question:

This answer indicates that GW fundamentally don't think a model counts as dead if it can come back and does come back. If it's not dead, then you don't don't get the casualties or in General's Handbook terms the kill points for it. If you don't get the kill points for it, then equivalently you don't need the reinforcement points to bring it back to life either. Otherwise the enemy player wouldn't be able to get all your kill points.

 

You example is from the AoS FAQ that in many cases flies in the face of the generals hand book and competitive play. As such we know the general hand book superscedes this FAQ.  Those points are also specific to Glorious Victory rules and not to the pitched battle stuff.

Now i suspect the intent may not be this way, but as i read it. This is how it works. 

 

I'd allow that an argument can be made for the fact that it says the model is the same??? and its not replacing or making a new model???

[Nico]

I don't think you do.

For example, it's not consistent with the answer to this question:

This answer indicates that GW fundamentally don't think a model counts as dead if it can come back and does come back. If it's not dead, then you don't don't get the casualties or in General's Handbook terms the kill points for it. If you don't get the kill points for it, then equivalently you don't need the reinforcement points to bring it back to life either. Otherwise the enemy player wouldn't be able to get all your kill points.

I would also add that bringing back a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with D3 wounds left is not the same thing as bringing back a replacement unit, i.e a full 14 wound model.

Your approach would also lead to an absurd unfairness, in that the Sylvaneth item Seed of Rebirth wouldn't cost points, but the ring of immortality would do, even though these are functionally the same (although the ring also tacks on a teleport).

As a further incidental point, the Flamespyre Phoenix wouldn't cost more than the Frostfyre Phoenix if you had to pay another 280 points for a 50% of it coming back to life, when it's a significantly weaker model absent this ability.

[chord]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 11:54 PM, jamierk said:

Has this question been answered by FAQ or at least could any TOs weigh in if it has come up and your tournment and how it has been ruled? I'm building a phoenix list and need to decide on whether flamespyre is worth his points or not.

 

Thanks

 

Jamie

The Phoenix does not require you set aside points for it's possible re-birth.

[mmimzie]

You know?? Rereading the rules. You have to pay for all such resummoning, resurrection, and so on. 

 

So you lay for dude brought back by ardfist, flamesprye revive, and even ring of immortality resurrect 

[ppetford]

A Flamespyre Phoenix does the same, expect it only has one chance to come back (at the beginning of the Hero phase after it died). Always thought this wouldn't cost extra points either

[Sadysaneto]

10 hours ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

I was wondering this about the Orruk IJ Battalion which allows you to recycle Ardboyz. I assumed that you didn't have to pay past the battalion points.

Imo, those are new units

 

 

[Nico]

Quote

I was wondering this about the Orruk IJ Battalion which allows you to recycle Ardboyz. I assumed that you didn't have to pay past the battalion points.

Those look much more like new units coming on - hence reinforcement points. They are not literally the same model coming back to life (and you're paying for the ability to come back to life either as part of the cost or as the artefact).

[Aaron Schmidt]

I was wondering this about the Orruk IJ Battalion which allows you to recycle Ardboyz. I assumed that you didn't have to pay past the battalion points.

[RuneBrush]

Adds a lot of potential for Skarr when playing scrolls that need you to hold an objective with a hero!