White Dwarf Subfactions/allegiances

[Ganigumo]

Do we know if subfactions, and allegiances printed in supplemental books like white dwarf and wrath of the everchosen become illegal for matched play after the general's handbook release?
We know battalions with matched play points not in the GHB are not legal (RIP wrath of the everchosen battalions), but there is nothing in the GHB or FAQ as to how it pertains to subfactions and allegiances (like Syll'Esske's host, legion of grief, knights of the empty throne, etc.) since these don't have matched play points.

[EMMachine]

Hey, good news for this question here. Today we got a new FAQ for the Generals Handbook 2020. And they stated which publications can be used.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/24/legendary-battalions-update/

 

Quote

Q: When choosing an army for a Pitched Battle, what publications can I use without my opponent’s permission?

A: You can use the warscrolls for units with a Pitched Battle profile listed in the General’s Handbook 2020(excluding those listed in the Legends Pitched Battle Profiles section) and the warscrolls for units with a Pitched Battle profile in a publication that has a release date of August 2020 or later.

In addition, when choosing your army, you can use rules from any of the following publications and any that have a release date of August 2020 or later:

• Battletome: Beasts of Chaos

• Battletome: Blades of Khorne

• Battletome: Cities of Sigmar

• Battletome: Daughters of Khaine

• Battletome: Disciples of Tzeentch

• Battletome: Flesh-eater Courts

• Battletome: Fyreslayers

• Battletome: Gloomspite Gitz

• Battletome: Hedonites of Slaanesh

• Battletome: Idoneth Deepkin

• Battletome: Kharadron Overlords

• Battletome: Legions of Nagash

• Battletome: Lumineth Realm-lords

• Battletome: Maggotkin of Nurgle

• Battletome: Nighthaunt

• Battletome: Ogor Mawtribes

• Battletome: Orruk Warclans

• Battletome: Ossiarch Bonereapers

• Battletome: Seraphon

• Battletome: Skaven

•Battletome: Slaves to Darkness

• Battletome: Stormcast Eternals

• Battletome: Sylvaneth

• Warhammer Age of Sigmar Core Book

• Soul Wars: Forbidden Power

• Wrath of the Everchosen

• General’s Handbook 2020

• Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Malign Sorcery (endless spell warscrolls only)

• Compendium: Monstrous Arcanum (excluding Legends Pitched Battle profiles)

• Compendium: Legion of Azgorh

• Tome Celestial: The Hammerhands – White Dwarf February 2019

• Tome Celestial: Steel Souls – White Dwarf April 2019

• Tome Celestial: The Vostarg Lodge – White Dwarf June 2019

• Tome Celestial: The Sempiternals – White Dwarf August 2019

• Tome Celestial: The Host of Syll’Esske – White Dwarf October 2019

• Tome Celestial: The Emerald Host – White Dwarf December 2019

• Tome Celestial: Ironsunz – White Dwarf February 2020

• Tome Celestial: Vokmortian’s Tithe Legion – White Dwarf April 2020

 

[Skreech Verminking]

I’m going out for a guess that the new Allegiance, will be playable for at least a year.

till the next ghb arrives 

[Ganigumo]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

All battallions etc. Without points can‘t be used for matched play (except your opponent agrees to it)

I'm wondering about subfactions and allegiances, which as a rule, do not have points associated with them, if this applied to allegiances literally nothing would be usable in matched play without your opponent's agreement.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I’m going out for a guess that the new Allegiance, will be playable for at least a year.

till the next ghb arrives 

The guess part is the bit that bothers me.

[EMMachine]

16 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I don't think that affects Allegiance Abilitites because everyone will lose their battletome (because it was published before GHB2020).

I think that Allegiance Abilities are chillin in the limbo until a new one overwrites them.

Quote

ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES
If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Order Draconis army, you could use the Order Grand Alliance allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.

No need for a battletome, if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.

The point is, in case of Age of Sigmar there aren't any Allegiance Abilities in the White Dwarf. Allegiance was basicly the wrong term in the title (something like that was only printed in case of Warhammer 40k)

The rules in White Dwarf are everytime Warscroll Battalions for a specific army and sometimes a named hero. In those cases the FAQ is right. Syll'Esske's host is not an Allegiance, it is a warscroll Battalion.

It's true. Allegiance Abilities never had a Pitched Battle Profile, so they are not affected by the Generals Handbook at all, legion of grief, knights of the empty throne can be played normally.

[JackStreicher]

Due to the frequency and harshness with which GW blocks pretty much anything that‘s not from the GHB or other „solid“ publications from being legal in matched play, I‘d not assume any WD rules will be allowed in matched play by default.

 

Edit: RIP (again) Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Ganigumo]

57 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Due to the frequency and harshness with which GW blocks pretty much anything that‘s not from the GHB or other „solid“ publications from being legal in matched play, I‘d not assume any WD rules will be allowed in matched play by default.

 

Edit: RIP (again) Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern

 

I know battalions tend to be matched play legal until the next ghb, since it is the "next publication" for a faction but my question is specifically regarding things that do not have point costs attached to them, which means they wouldn't be printed in the GHB in the first place. At the moment there is no rule for things that aren't battalions (unless I just can't find it), unless we're just supposed to guess or assume that white dwarf is a less legitimate source than something like wrath of the everchosen.

Since it doesn't seem GW has made a distinction, either all of it is legal, or all of it is illegal, as long as there aren't newer publications for it.
I'm not fond of just having players arbitrarily decide what is matched play legal and what isn't based on how "legitimate" we consider a source book. If we were to go strictly by what allegiances are in the ghb it would make big WAAAGH!!! illegal, which is absurd, and so is the idea of stuff from wrath of the everchosen (although the battalions are now illegal in matched play)

[JackStreicher]

All battallions etc. Without points can‘t be used for matched play (except your opponent agrees to it)

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

I'm wondering about subfactions and allegiances, which as a rule

What @Skreech Verminking said.

Expect the White Dwarf Allegiances to be invalid after a year (so better don‘t invest money in Models (*cough* mercenary companies*) or Allegiances that don‘t come in an expansion book (Forbidden Power and the likes) or in an actual Battletome.

This Politik of GW is harmful and it is what is hugely putting me off for example...

[Tropical Ghost General]

5 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Do we know if subfactions, and allegiances printed in supplemental books like white dwarf and wrath of the everchosen become illegal for matched play after the general's handbook release?
We know battalions with matched play points not in the GHB are not legal (RIP wrath of the everchosen battalions), but there is nothing in the GHB or FAQ as to how it pertains to subfactions and allegiances (like Syll'Esske's host, legion of grief, knights of the empty throne, etc.) since these don't have matched play points.

Currently the ruling is any WD content published prior to the current GHB is no longer valid in matched play unless you get permission from your opponent beforehand. 

Wrath of the Everchosen is different, in that the rules inside are an expansion to the game (similar to FP). They haven't had a more recent publication of those rules that replace them, so they remain valid (even though they aren't specifically listed in the current GHB). 

And going forward, any WD content released now, as it's after the most recent GHB is valid for matched play if it has points, and they won't need consent from your opponent beforehand (unlike stuff like dolorous guard, RIP). 

GW could really help their player base by using terminology that isn't confusing or by releasing a glossary of terms, as the wording 'older publication' is incredibly misleading if English is your first language, let alone for anyone who doesn't have English as their native tongue. 

[EMMachine]

This is basicly GW official Answer in the Generals Handbook 2020 FAQ

Quote

Q: Can I use rules from older publications in Pitched Battle
(2020) games, such as Mercenary Companies from the
General’s Handbook 2019?
A: Yes, but only if your opponent agrees or a house rule
permits it.

Q: The Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book does not include
profiles for warscrolls or warscroll battalions from previous
editions of White Dwarf magazine, from battleboxes like
Carrion Empire or for store-exclusive limited edition models.
Can I use these profiles in Pitched Battle (2020) games?
A: Yes, but only if your opponent agrees or a house rule
permits it.

 

[Beliman]

21 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Q: Can I use rules from older publications in Pitched Battle
(2020) games, such as Mercenary Companies from the
General’s Handbook 2019?
A: Yes, but only if your opponent agrees or a house rule
permits it.

I don't think that affects Allegiance Abilitites because everyone will lose their battletome (because they were published before GHB2020).

I think that Allegiance Abilities are chillin in the limbo until a new one overwrites them.

Quote

ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES
If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Order Draconis army, you could use the Order Grand Alliance allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.

No need for a battletome, if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Beliman

[Beliman]

Just now, EMMachine said:

The point is, in case of Age of Sigmar there aren't any Allegiance Abilities in the White Dwarf YET. Allegiance was basicly the wrong term in the title (something like that was only printed in case of Warhammer 40k)

It seems that this will change:

Quote

 The Tome Celestial investigates this ambitious grot horde and delves into their history, organisation, and motivations in great detail. When you’re done reading, you can unleash them on the battlefield with new allegiance abilities, command abilities, traits, and artefacts of power exclusive to the Jaws of Mork!

 

[EMMachine]

6 minutes ago, Beliman said:

It seems that this will change:

Quote

 The Tome Celestial investigates this ambitious grot horde and delves into their history, organisation, and motivations in great detail. When you’re done reading, you can unleash them on the battlefield with new allegiance abilities, command abilities, traits, and artefacts of power exclusive to the Jaws of Mork!

 

That's from White Dwarf 455, isn't it?

If we look at the Tome Celestial until now, it was quite backward to games development. I mean GW started to create subfactions inside the allegiance back in March 2018 with Battletome Daughters of Khaine, but still used Factionbattalions in the White Dwarf 453.

Hopefully they aren't Allegiance Abilities and more subfactions for an Allegiance Ability. The problem with the first one is, that they won't be able to use Battalions because they aren't part of the Battletome, but they could if the faction would still use the normal battletome.

[Beliman]

2 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

That's from White Dwarf 455, isn't it?

If we look at the Tome Celestial until now, it was quite backward to games development. I mean GW started to create subfactions inside the allegiance back in March 2018 with Battletome Daughters of Khaine, but still used Factionbattalions in the White Dwarf 453.

Hopefully they aren't Allegiance Abilities and more subfactions for an Allegiance Ability. The problem with the first one is, that they won't be able to use Battalions because they aren't part of the Battletome, but they could if the faction would still use the normal battletome.

Well, technically, they started in April 2017 with the first Kharadron Overlords Battletome! But for some reasons (AoS 2.0), they didn't expand that until one year later with the DOK.

About subfactions, I hope you are right!!!!  Lethis should have been absorbed by Cities of Sigmar (I know, Ghyran/Aqshy, but whatever...).

[EMMachine]

2 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Well, technically, they started in April 2017 with the first Kharadron Overlords Battletome! But for some reasons (AoS 2.0), they didn't expand that until one year later with the DOK.

Yeah right, Kharadron had it first but than. Maggotkin was still Battalions (and Legions of Nagash was another form of mess)

2 minutes ago, Beliman said:

About subfactions, I hope you are right!!!!  Lethis should have been absorbed by Cities of Sigmar (I know, Ghyran/Aqshy, but whatever...).

It should have been. The problem is, that GW doesn't really know what they want. If a subfaction simply has a forced Command Trait/Artefact like most Allegiances or if they have their own set of Allegiance Abilities like Cities of Sigmar or Hedonites of Slaanesh (the last variante would actually be the better one.

Lethis has actually another problem,  because even it is a City it didn't have any of the Cities of Sigmar units in it (it was Fyreslayers, Deepkin and Stormcast for the most part) + the worst set-up you can create for Battalions. The realm woundn't have been a problem because the city states in which realm it is.

But Legion of Grief should have a more elegant way if it and Legions of Nagash would get an update.