Tomb Kings or Chaos Dwarfs

[Phyrex]

Hello there... I'm an old player of Warhammer Fantasy. And as a nostalgic one, I can't forget that amazing world that made me fall in love. And now, I'm here in this new world... or worlds. And I wonder if I can play with my beloved races; especially the Chaos Dwarfs and the Tomb Kings.

I want to know who is a better option... Can you people help me please???

 

[Nacnudllah]

First off, yes.  Second off, Chaos Dwarves are still “properly” supported and are probably your better option.  You can get their rules from Forge World (free pdf download) they’re now called Legion of Azorgh.

[Twisted Firaun]

I came into this hobby too late to collect much of either faction, but the uniqueness of both ranges is what drew me into fantasy.

[swarmofseals]

Honestly if you don't have much I probably wouldn't pursue either faction unless you have a lot of disposable income and are mostly in it for the hobby. Both are fantastic model ranges, but old school chaos dwarfs are really expensive due to rarity and current chaos dwarfs (Legion of Azgorh) are expensive because they are Forgeworld. Tomb Kings have been OOP for quite some time and demand a premium price too, particularly for the more recent kits.

Both factions also lack true rules support. Tomb Kings are especially precarious and will likely be shunted over into Warhammer Legends status, although who knows what will happen with Warhammer: Old World in a few years. Legion of Azgorh is theoretically still supported but we've seen models dropped from the FW store and their "battletome" is vestigial at best. 

There's a lot more uniqueness in the current AOS lineup than there was in the past as GW has been pushing new factions into more unconventional territory. I'd suggest giving the current ranges a good look and see if anything strikes your fancy!

[Baron Klatz]

100% agreed with Swarm of Seals. Try going Ossiarch Bonereapers, Legions of Nagash Deathrattle or Fyreslayers.

Lots of great playstyles  with a few things you can tweak for an echo of nostalgia, start collecting boxes & warbands to save you money and they're fully supported with bright futures ahead which you can enjoy in AoS, Skirmish, Underworlds and Warcry for a variety of fantastic games in the Mortal Realms.

Plus you can hold on to some cash this way and buy the super expensive oop models you like and proxy a few of them down the road.

[EccentricCircle]

If you already have the models then both factions are perfectly playable, with a few caveats. Basically their rules aren't designed for competitive "matched play" so they don't have full army books and lack a lot of the additional content that newer or better supported armies have . Legion of Azgorh chaos dwarfs are ahead of the tomb kings, but not by much. If you are happy to play fairly friendly or narrative games and not worry about alleigence abilities too much then they are fine, but that isn't how most folks on the forum play the game these days.i

there is a good fan made tomb kings book, and a lot of the models would make a good proxy for the new bone reapers so there are ootions.

if you don't have the models its going to be tougher. Omb kings shot up in price after being discontinued, and last I checked were still very expensive for anything beyond the basic skellies.

Chaos Dwarves are at least still in production, but forge world kits are pricey. A few year's ago I was able to collect a Chaos Dwarf retro army, as most of the classic models are in circulation on the second hand market. However it took a lot of patience to wait for and find good deals.Basically assume that you will be paying the equivalent of a new gw army, but for much smaller oop models. So your monsters and artillery will set you back what you'd pay for the big centrpiece models in a new arny, unless you get very lucky. Line troops are the main problem, so best get a few to give character, and make up the numbers with 3rd party equivalents like Mantics Abyssal dwarves, or the Russian Alternative and scibor ranges.

Mantic have a good tomb kings style line too as do Reaper.

[Kyriakin]

My two all-time favourite armies.

That said, I would go Big Hat Chaos Dwarfs (if you can get the models) as a Cities of Sigmar army.

[EccentricCircle]

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

My two all-time favourite armies.

That said, I would go Big Hat Chaos Dwarfs (if you can get the models) as a Cities of Sigmar army.

I mean, rules-wise, yeah that would work pretty well.

But the Hashut Cultist in me is screaming "HERESY!!!!" in Dwarven at the very thought of Dawi Zharr serving Sigmar!

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, EccentricCircle said:

I mean, rules-wise, yeah that would work pretty well.

But the Hashut Cultist in me is screaming "HERESY!!!!" in Dwarven at the very thought of Dawi Zharr serving Sigmar!

Serving Sigmar is just fluff, my guys are not that into the dude either, and they are still Order.

[EccentricCircle]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Serving Sigmar is just fluff, my guys are not that into the dude either, and they are still Order.

That tends to be for the best. I don't think either my Elves or Dwarves think very much of him either!

[Landohammer]

On 4/15/2020 at 7:00 PM, Phyrex said:

Hello there... I'm an old player of Warhammer Fantasy. And as a nostalgic one, I can't forget that amazing world that made me fall in love. And now, I'm here in this new world... or worlds. And I wonder if I can play with my beloved races; especially the Chaos Dwarfs and the Tomb Kings.

I want to know who is a better option... Can you people help me please???

 

Yes. You can field Tomb Kings in a Death Allegiance army. And you can field Chaos Dwarfs in a Legions of Azgorh army. Both are perfectly legal and have competent rules.

Death Allegiance is a catch-all faction for all Death models without a codex.   Azgorh is the Chaos Dwarf faction and has an actual codex, (though its PDF only from what I understand).

I would actually recommend you focus on Azgorh since Ossearch Bonereapers are the spiritual successor to Tomb Kings, and so I don't imagine original TK will get any more support, rules updates, or model production runs. They are essentially Legends now. 

Note that if you plan to play in tournaments, circle bases are a must. If rebasing isn't an option, consider purchasing adapters. 

 

[Kyriakin]

On 4/17/2020 at 11:25 PM, Landohammer said:

Ossearch Bonereapers are the spiritual successor to Tomb Kings, and so I don't imagine original TK will get any more support, rules updates, or model production runs.

I disagree here slightly.

OBR certainly took on the skeletal constructs and Super Chad leader elements of the Tomb Kings, but did not include any mummies, chariots or a dedicated  desert theme - three TK fundamentals.

I feel there is still enough design space for a Khalida-led, desert-themed, mummy-based faction that doesn't thematically tread on OBR's toes. I can kinda picture Khalida standing on top of a giant scorpion, Alarielle-style.

That's not to say they they will do this, but they could. It's not like many undead archetypes are left, with Ghouls, Skeletons (sort of), Ghosts and Vampires already covered. Though I guess "a dead version of Army X" is always an option (e.g. undead skaven, etc.).

Edited April 18, 2020 by Kyriakin

[EccentricCircle]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

I disagree here slightly.

OBR certainly took on the skeletal constructs and Super Chad leader elements of the Tomb Kings, but did not include any mummies, chariots or a dedicated  desert theme - three TK fundamentals.

I feel there is still enough design space for a Khalida-led, desert-themed, mummy-based faction that doesn't thematically tread on OBR's toes. I can kinda picture Khalida standing on top of a giant scorpion, Alarielle-style.

That's not to say they they will do this, but they could. It's not like many undead archetypes are left, with Ghouls, Skeletons (sort of), Ghosts and Vampires already covered.

That would be great! Ossiarchs are cool enough, but on a functional level they really don't have any of the things that made Tomb Kings my favourite. They manage to be a spiritual sucessor to lots of TK elements, but none of the ones that matter! Your suggestions would be much more my sort of thing.

[Landohammer]

On 4/18/2020 at 4:01 PM, Kyriakin said:

I disagree here slightly.

OBR certainly took on the skeletal constructs and Super Chad leader elements of the Tomb Kings, but did not include any mummies, chariots or a dedicated  desert theme - three TK fundamentals.

I feel there is still enough design space for a Khalida-led, desert-themed, mummy-based faction that doesn't thematically tread on OBR's toes. I can kinda picture Khalida standing on top of a giant scorpion, Alarielle-style.

That's not to say they they will do this, but they could. It's not like many undead archetypes are left, with Ghouls, Skeletons (sort of), Ghosts and Vampires already covered. Though I guess "a dead version of Army X" is always an option (e.g. undead skaven, etc.).

I was under the impression that OBR were TK reimagined as a GW IP. I thought everyone else assumed the same.

The old TK were one of the worst offenders when it comes to generic IP since you cant really copyright egyptian undead. ISo the OBR seemed like a natural progression. 

I mean there is definitely room for them thematically, but it would be the equivalent of getting a new high elf army after the Lumineth are released. 

 

[EccentricCircle]

46 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I was under the impression that OBR were TK reimagined as a GW IP. I thought everyone else assumed the same.

The old TK were one of the worst offenders when it comes to generic IP since you cant really copyright egyptian undead. ISo the OBR seemed like a natural progression. 

I mean there is definitely room for them thematically, but it would be the equivalent of getting a new high elf army after the Lumineth are released. 

 

I suspect that is what GW intended them to be, but it doesn't change the fact that without Mummies, Chariots, Archers, Sphynxes, Snake creatures, and the general desert theme they don't really cover many of the things that made TK popular with its fans in the first place.

That isn't to say that the stuff OBR does do isn't done well. It is a great faction, with a really cool high fantasy look. But while GW might not like "generic" factions, they will always have an appeal that their own IP can't, simply because of familiarity. I know I love ancient Egypt, I always have, so egyptian themed stuff always jumps out to me, and I like most of the different riffs on that theme. Because OBR lack that aspect, they don't become an automatic success, as I have to come to their aesthetic "fresh" and decide whether I like it.

There are some elements of it which I really do like, but equally there are others which I don't. If it had a solid real world inspired theme, then that might counteract the bits I don't like about them. Case in point the Kharadron Overlords, which managed to be very distinct and new, while also being true to classic Steampunk aesthetics. They are both distinctly AoS and have a lot of tie ins to an existing aethestic which I already love, so they were a much more sure fire success for me. You can see the same thing with the new Giants. They are proving very popular because they tick a great many of the boxes of what a giant army can and should be for a lot of people. They aren't so far removed from the expected aesthetic that they become "generic bone constructs" and thus have to win on their own merits entirely.

I hope that explanation makes sense, as I'm not sure I've explained it very well. Basically a generic faction has to stand on its own merits (and clearly does for a lot of people). However a faction inspired by the existing aesthetics of cultural era or artistic movement from our own world has a built in audience, has a wider appeal, and almost a built in audience.

[Landohammer]

28 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

I suspect that is what GW intended them to be, but it doesn't change the fact that without Mummies, Chariots, Archers, Sphynxes, Snake creatures, and the general desert theme they don't really cover many of the things that made TK popular with its fans in the first place.

That isn't to say that the stuff OBR does do isn't done well. It is a great faction, with a really cool high fantasy look. But while GW might not like "generic" factions, they will always have an appeal that their own IP can't, simply because of familiarity. I know I love ancient Egypt, I always have, so egyptian themed stuff always jumps out to me, and I like most of the different riffs on that theme. Because OBR lack that aspect, they don't become an automatic success, as I have to come to their aesthetic "fresh" and decide whether I like it.

There are some elements of it which I really do like, but equally there are others which I don't. If it had a solid real world inspired theme, then that might counteract the bits I don't like about them. Case in point the Kharadron Overlords, which managed to be very distinct and new, while also being true to classic Steampunk aesthetics. They are both distinctly AoS and have a lot of tie ins to an existing aethestic which I already love, so they were a much more sure fire success for me. You can see the same thing with the new Giants. They are proving very popular because they tick a great many of the boxes of what a giant army can and should be for a lot of people. They aren't so far removed from the expected aesthetic that they become "generic bone constructs" and thus have to win on their own merits entirely.

I hope that explanation makes sense, as I'm not sure I've explained it very well. Basically a generic faction has to stand on its own merits (and clearly does for a lot of people). However a faction inspired by the existing aesthetics of cultural era or artistic movement from our own world has a built in audience, has a wider appeal, and almost a built in audience.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying. But I am looking at it from a practical rather than idealistic point of view. Personally, I think that if you are a TK fan, then OBR is probably the closest you will ever have to a re-release of your army.  So TK fans on the fence about OBR should just go ahead and jump into OBR. 

I would hate for people to pass up on a cool army just because they were holding out hope for something that is realistically never going to happen  

 

 

 

 

[EccentricCircle]

9 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I don't disagree with anything you are saying. But I am looking at it from a practical rather than idealistic point of view. Personally, I think that if you are a TK fan, then OBR is probably the closest you will ever have to a re-release of your army.  So TK fans on the fence about OBR should just go ahead and jump into OBR. 

I would hate for people to pass up on a cool army just because they were holding out hope for something that is realistically never going to happen

Oh for sure. It is probably the closest we're going to get from GW, however that doesn't necessarily mean that OBR is the best choice as a replacement for everyone. Personally I've never really been on the fence about the bonereapers. I like a couple of the models, but the vast majority of the army doesn't appeal to me at all. I might one day get one of the priests or the new skull catapult to use as Tomb Kings conversions, but honestly if I want more tomb kings stuff then I'm better going for one of the 3rd party ranges.

The big advantage of drawing on a real aesthetic is that even if GW never make another Egyptian mummy for the rest of time, there will be no shortage of other people doing so. Reaper and Mantic both have quite large ranges, and the models that are coming out of the recent TTCombat kickstarter look amazing. If I want some egyptian themed stuff to paint I'll go for them, rather than making do with GW's "next best thing".

As far as cool undead factions geared towards Age of Sigmar go I'm sorted too! Nighthaunt surpassed my wildest expectations for expanded ghosts, and I'll be painting and gaming with them for a long time to come. It thus doesn't matter that OBR don't live up to my hopes.

Everyone will have a different opinion though, so for some they will be a good alternative. As far as addressing the OP's question though, Tomb King options are out there, even if not from GW right now.