AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Bayul]

15 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

Can anybody confirm the loss of MONSTER keyword on the Formoroid Crusher Warscroll?

It doesn't have MONSTER, sorry.

[ibel]

Anyone a idea when the Warscrollbuilder is updated...?!

[Bayul]

19 minutes ago, ibel said:

Anyone a idea when the Warscrollbuilder is updated...?!

Probably shortly after the release of the regular Battletome.

[Ravinsild]

++ **Pitched Battle GHB 2022** 2,000 (Chaos - Slaves to Darkness) [1,790pts] ++

+ Core Battalion +

Core Battalion: Warlord: Extra Enhancement: Artefacts of Power

Slaves to Darkness Core Battalion: Chaos Warband: Unified

+ Leader +

Chaos Lord [115pts]: Mark of Khorne, Reaperblade and Daemonbound Steel, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak [220pts]: Chaos Warband - 1 Leader, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Daemonic Speed, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders
. Arcane Tome

Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince [195pts]: Daemonic Axe, General, Mark of Khorne, Radiance of Dark Glory, Vial of Mantivore Venom, Warlord - 1-2 Commanders, Wings

+ Battleline +

Chaos Knights [230pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Ensorcelled Warhammer, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard Bearer

Chaos Knights [230pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Ensorcelled Warhammer, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard Bearer

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer, The Eroding Icon

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer

+ Other +

Chaos Chosen [240pts]: 5 Chaos Chosen, Mark of Khorne, The Banner of Rage, Warlord - 1-2 Troops

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

Grand Strategy: Defend What's Ours

++ Total: [1,790pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Got 210 points left over in a list an everyone basically concludes, that based on actual models I own, it’s all a bunch of meh. Can’t figure out what the best of the meh is though.

Either a chaos Warshrine, 2 Fomoroid Crushers, or all that Khorne Hooplah aka Bloodsecrator, Aspiring Deathbringer or Bloodstoker and the Eightfold Sigil endless spell…

I did also get the new box so I do own 3 Ogroid Theridons. Don’t have any cultists or anything. 
 

[ibel]

4 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I did also get the new box so I do own 3 Ogroid Theridons. Don’t have any cultists or anything.

I would say, change 10 CW and go for 10 Choosen instat of 5 and than a Shrine.

What Host u take? Knights? Archaos ?

[Halkbat]

For 210 points I would go with 2 units if 5 marauder horsemen to screen and be a nuisance but I have some nicely painted ones that have been sitting on the shelf for 4 years.

[Ravinsild]

2 hours ago, ibel said:

I would say, change 10 CW and go for 10 Choosen instat of 5 and than a Shrine.

What Host u take? Knights? Archaos ?

Host of the Everchosen

[Bayul]

15 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I did also get the new box so I do own 3 Ogroid Theridons.

I think this is the most easiest approach. Take them and a Triumph and see how it goes. If you think they don't serve a purpose replace them with a Warshrine and alter the amount of your Chosen / Warriors.

[Ravinsild]

28 minutes ago, Bayul said:

I think this is the most easiest approach. Take them and a Triumph and see how it goes. If you think they don't serve a purpose replace them with a Warshrine and alter the amount of your Chosen / Warriors.

Plus I’ve always wanted to run a sort of themed list based on Blood Bowl’s chaos team with Gors, Chaos Warriors and Minotaurs and while I can’t quite get that these days, Ogroid Theridons look close enough to Minotaurs to catch that theme and still be competitive I think. 

[Nixon]

What are the pros and cons of taking a 10 man Chosen unit over two times five? (Just getting inot AOS 3.0 and StD.)

/Nix

[ibel]

2 hours ago, Nixon said:

What are the pros and cons of taking a 10 man Chosen unit over two times five? (Just getting inot AOS 3.0 and StD.)

/Nix

Okay lets go:

Pro's 10Men         - 10 can better be buffed (WizzardSpell, OccularV, AllOutAttack/Defence/Ens.Banner/Warsrhine)

                             - 10 are more peopel for 1 Unit to kontroll a OB

                            -  10 stand longer so u can better roll more dice (5+ in Everchoosen) to get Boodys back

Pro's 2x5Men       - more field controll because u can better put them in places on the battelfield

                             - more Batteline Units in Everchoosen

                             - different Marks for different Battelfieldrolles

                             

[Halkbat]

Can multiple chaos lords pick the same unit of warriors or chosen as their retinue?

[Bayul]

7 hours ago, Halkbat said:

Can multiple chaos lords pick the same unit of warriors or chosen as their retinue?

In Vince Vinturella's review stream they mention this as being possible. I'd wait for the FAQ to clarify though. 

[ibel]

6 hours ago, Bayul said:

I'd wait for the FAQ to clarify though.

Actually i would say jes, Why not.

[Bayul]

4 hours ago, ibel said:

Actually i would say jes, Why not.

I don't disagree, it should work RAW. But don't buy 5 Chaos Lords to do silly things yet.

[Rors]

I don't think there's really much benefit to having 5 chaos lord's attached to one retinue anyway. I guess it could be fun in cabalists to protect you from misscasting. If it doesn't get FAQ'd I don't see it causing any problems.

[Bayul]

I think this is my final version of my Cabalists list:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness

Damned Legion: Cabalists

Grandy Strategy: Defend What’s Ours

Triumph: Bloodthirsty

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Leaders

Chaos Lord (115)*

- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Spell: Flaming Weapon, Chaotic Conduit

Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (240)*

- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Spell: Binding Damnation, Spit-tongue Curse, Chaotic Conduit, Ruinous Vigor, Daemonic Speed

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (120)*

- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Daemonic Speed, Binding Damnation

Units

10 x Chaos Knights (460)

- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
- Cursed Lances

10 x Chaos Warriors (220)*

- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Murderous Weapons

10 x Chaos Warriors (220)*

- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Murderous Weapons

5 x Chaos Chosen (240)

- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Icons of Chaos: The Blasted Standard

5 x Chaos Chosen (240)

- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Retinue

10x Kairic Acolytes (120)

- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Allies

Additional Enchantments

Artefact of Power

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Core Battalions:

*Warlord

Total: 1975 / 2000 Point

The army composition should look like this:

Chaos Lord / Chaos Sorcerer Lord / Chaos Chosen (Retinue)

Both casters roam around as couple to benefit from the Draw on Power heroic action. The Chaos Lord casts Chaotic Conduit on him or his Chosen retinue depending on the situation. The Chaos Sorcerer Lord casts Daemonic Speed on Chaos Knights in range, as soon as a good opportunity occurs. They provide buffs and debuffs for the backline later on.

Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch / Chaos Chosen / Kairic Acolytes

Chosen and Acolytes are stashed in the Silver Tower, if the threat range allows this trick: The flying Gaunt Summoner with 16" movement runs into a better position in the movement phase and summons both units at the end of it. Chosen with banner and standard ready to charge and Acolytes nearby to shot in the same turn and protect the Gaunt Summoner with Look out, Sir!. In hopes of him surving early turns he can repostion and Warp Reality more Chaos Warriors if necessary. He receives the additional artefact to be more survivable with a Ward 5+.

Chaos Knights / Chaos Warriors

Battleline units predominantly. As mentioned above the Chaos Knights should receive an early Daemonic Speed for a hasty charge, while Chaos Warriors keep an eye out for brawls or objectives with the option to be repositioned with Warp Reality into enemy territory.

[Malakithe]

Hmm bold move going Mark of Tzeentch...curious how that turns out

[Holy_Diver]

So, I've been playing about 10 games with the StD and I want to bring a couple more thoughts here:

1) Which unit to use as an anvil (mark of nurgle and banner)?
20 Warriors: 40 wounds in midfield, unfortunately suffering +1 damage.
10 Knights: 30 Very Mobile Wounds, unable to contest x3 on obj. 

2) In what kind of game do the StDs shine?
Field Control: With the number of battlines, both low cost and armored, certainly the number of models needed on targets is often there. The problem results in the central units, which subtract many points from the list (460/480/580).
Damage per round: activating at least 3 charging units in a row is very strong, however I could see that these units fear counter-charges a lot (30 wounds on 3+ seems rocky, but with current dps they last a combat phase).

What do you think?

Edited November 25, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[Wraith]

10 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

So, I've been playing about 10 games with the StD and I want to bring a couple more thoughts here:

1) Which unit to use as an anvil (mark of nurgle and banner)?
20 Warriors: 40 wounds in midfield, unfortunately suffering +1 damage.
10 Knights: 30 Very Mobile Wounds, unable to contest x3 on obj. 

2) In what kind of game do the StDs shine?
Field Control: With the number of battlines, both low cost and armored, certainly the number of models needed on targets is often there. The problem results in the central units, which subtract many points from the list (460/480/580).
Damage per round: activating at least 3 charging units in a row is very strong, however I could see that these units fear counter-charges a lot (30 wounds on 3+ seems rocky, but with current dps they last a combat phase).

What do you think?

In response to point 1, the warriors are the anvil. The knights are the hammer.

The first obvious build with the new S2D tome is to take advance of mounted troops and first strike. Both mounted Chaos Lords strike first on the charge and can active a unit of knights or chariots to fight at the same time. So you get three activations in the combat phase with high damage output units before your opponent gets an activation in that combat phase.

It seems there is an alpha strike build in here with the extensive strike first, plus the various ways of increasing charge range. It is highly dependent on getting the charge, and it is susceptible to screening, which your opponent will become very studious about after facing your Calvary list for the first time.

 

The next obvious build is all about damage resistant Chaos Warriors and Chosen just marching across the board. Doesn't matter who charges first here. In theory you should grind them down by being tougher and sustaining higher damage output. That is: beat them by being better. Unfortunately this is a points based game, so things should be equal. One can't just rely on one's troops being better.

You might add some knights also to get the combined hammer and anvil, with the combination in theory creating more opportunities to use your tactical genius to swing the balance in your favour. I guess you need to experiment with both extremes, all heavy cavalry or all heavy infantry, to see how they work.

 

In response to point 2, I don't think there has been time for most people to consider what board control options there are. But there are a way array of suitable cultists, marauder horse, furies and allies to look at. Ravagers looks to be to obvious board control option, since it can bring back destroyed screening units. As people start to encounter problems with their heavy units in various scenarios, they will explore what can be done with board control. One thing S2D is lacking is suitable missile troops to clear away screens. What allies can fill this gap? Are there spells in the tome somewhere that can clear screens?

 

 

 

 

 

[Halkbat]

The combination if endless spells realmscourge rapture and gnashing jaws is really run to send ahead of advancing warriors or chosen.  A unit getting hit by both spells can take a lot of mortal wounds and they are both large bases to eat up table space.

[Rors]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

The next obvious build is all about damage resistant Chaos Warriors and Chosen just marching across the board. Doesn't matter who charges first here. In theory you should grind them down by being tougher and sustaining higher damage output. That is: beat them by being better. Unfortunately this is a points based game, so things should be equal. One can't just rely on one's troops being better.

You might add some knights also to get the combined hammer and anvil, with the combination in theory creating more opportunities to use your tactical genius to swing the balance in your favour. I guess you need to experiment with both extremes, all heavy cavalry or all heavy infantry, to see how they work.

I've been playing around with warrior heavy builds and you need some mobile hammers or there are certain match ups you just loose on. Stuff like hearthguard will win the attrition battle with their 4 up ward, and mobile armies with firepower like KO can kite you and while StD are tough, they not though enough to just stand of objectives and take shots. Chosen have good damage but they're too slow to be a realible hammer if you don't have anything else.

I have found that a solid line of nugle warriors backed up by some khorne knights and varangaurd gives you the flexibility to counter charge hammer and anvil style, or send them forward aggressively if the opponent has something like KO. I've actually found the chaos one drop battalion really good too for this style of play. No other army can put as many units down in a one drop as we can.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Rors said:

I've been playing around with warrior heavy builds and you need some mobile hammers or there are certain match ups you just loose on. Stuff like hearthguard will win the attrition battle with their 4 up ward, and mobile armies with firepower like KO can kite you and while StD are tough, they not though enough to just stand of objectives and take shots. Chosen have good damage but they're too slow to be a realible hammer if you don't have anything else.

I have found that a solid line of nugle warriors backed up by some khorne knights and varangaurd gives you the flexibility to counter charge hammer and anvil style, or send them forward aggressively if the opponent has something like KO. I've actually found the chaos one drop battalion really good too for this style of play. No other army can put as many units down in a one drop as we can.

One hero and lots of muscle. Sounds like a plan.

 

 

2 hours ago, Halkbat said:

The combination if endless spells realmscourge rapture and gnashing jaws is really run to send ahead of advancing warriors or chosen.  A unit getting hit by both spells can take a lot of mortal wounds and they are both large bases to eat up table space.

Those endless spells might be worth a try at clearing chaff. Getting a clear charge is important for the heavy cavalry.

The sorcerer on Manticore has an 18"range horde clearing spell that might help , too.

 

Other ideas for dealing with chaff:

1/ cast levitate on the knights so they just fly over the chaff. Only do one a turn, though.

2/ use allied missile troops. EG: ungor raiders, bliss-bard archers, plague drones. I think the bliss-barb work out best as archers. But the plague drones have enough movement that their missile attack might work out well also. Note: only 1 in 4 units, and within 20% of points limit, can be allied. Reinforced archer units might be necessary. 

3/ use abilities to move chaff. EG: Khorne Slaughter-priest or Bray-shaman have move enemy unit abilities/spell.

 

Maybe we need two of these in a list to ensure the chaos knights can get a straight charge at a preferred target?

 

 

 

Just on the subject of allies, I was listening to AoS Coach video on S2D thoughts. The guy being interviewed and AoS Coach himself couldn't see much from Slannesh of value. What of the Acquiescence spell? It targets one unit (D3 if we are talking the Contorted Epitome), which allows rerolls of 1's for attacks against target unit. Doesn't this help Archaon at lot? What am I missing here?

 

[SpiritofHokuto]

Cabalists with a few Endless Spells does seem to be a pretty good option for screen clearing. You don't even have to commit a massive amount of points. Gnashing Jaws, Burning Head and Spite Tongue Curse is plugging 10+ MW on average vs a Mv 5/6 unit. And with the communal Draw on Power and the numerous spell casts Cabalists offers you're likely to be able to push them through standard unbinds.

Like on the AoSCoach video, leaning on the Chaos Lord's retinue ability to prevent sniping and palm off miscasts. And then you've still got a bevvy of buff/debuff spells to throw out if you don't need the damage. 

[Rors]

I think another option for dealing with screens is the doom sigil. You just play into their plan because it plays into yours. Charge your warriors in with sigil and demonic power up and blow the screen away. Then give your front line units +1 attack. This is even nastier if you're charging into their deployment zone. Those nurgle warriors can have 4 attacks each hitting and wounding on 2s.. there's not many hammers out there that can deal with 40 wounds on a 2+ save and 5+ mortal shrug. Odds are they value trade in the opponents turn simply by playing into the opponents 'trap'. Or they can pass the turn back to you and the +1 attack drops but now you get a double. It's a win win situation for you. Obviously this doesn't work in all situations, a gunline that lost it's screens won't care you have extra attacks if they take priority.

It's even better with our own screens like fangs or darkoath with sigil, because they can charge in and  clear screens easily, and with +1 attack going into the priority roll, really force the opponent to think.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Rors