AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Snakeb1te]

1 minute ago, Gistradagis said:

If that's for the Nurgle battalion, then it's not enough. It's a hero + 7 units, meaning 8 in total with the Mark, I believe?

Well a hero is fulfilling the requirement of being a unit and a hero isn't it? Perhaps the more experience folk in this thread can confirm.

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, Snakeb1te said:

Well a hero is fulfilling the requirement of being a unit and a hero isn't it? Perhaps the more experience folk in this thread can confirm.

As far as I have seen, all lists with the warband have 8 units in total, which makes sense to me since the army book diferentiates between the 1 hero, and the 7 units you need. Otherwise, it would (should) word it as something like "7 units with Mark or Nurgle, with at least one hero". Or so I'd guess.

Maybe someone will confirm, as you say.

[NJohansson]

5 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

As far as I have seen, all lists with the warband have 8 units in total, which makes sense to me since the army book diferentiates between the 1 hero, and the 7 units you need. Otherwise, it would (should) word it as something like "7 units with Mark or Nurgle, with at least one hero". Or so I'd guess.

Maybe someone will confirm, as you say.

All warscrolls are units - even if they are only consisting of one model. Thus a hero is a unit for all intent and purposes. So you basically must have one unit that is also a hero and the rest can be any units (including individual heroes).

[JackStreicher]

12 hours ago, Roark said:

What do you mean specifically mate? IMO Rend -2 is very handy and not common at all, albeit that they really need to choose their targets carefully. M10 helps with this.

If Chaos Knights were 160 I think I would take a unit of 10 every time. I know, it's kind of a pointless thing to say...

They‘re worth 140 at best. 160 if they can use the lances AND the swords. I will never get why the knights have no 3+ armor though...

 

edit:
about the battalions: just add a marked Chaos spawn, it‘s a 50 pts unit to fill the battalion 

Edited February 18, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, NJohansson said:

All warscrolls are units - even if they are only consisting of one model. Thus a hero is a unit for all intent and purposes. So you basically must have one unit that is also a hero and the rest can be any units (including individual heroes).

I know that all warscrolls are units. I'm talking about how the warband's ruling specifically lists a hero apart, and then also asks for 7 units. As you say, all heroes are also units, which means it'd be a bit redundant to put this as its own line in the requirements unless the hero unit is not a part of the 7 you need.

[JackStreicher]

2 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

I know that all warscrolls are units. I'm talking about how the warband's ruling specifically lists a hero apart, and then also asks for 7 units. As you say, all heroes are also units, which means it'd be a bit redundant to put this as its own line in the requirements unless the hero unit is not a part of the 7 you need.

It‘s not. That line makes sure you have at least one hero so you can‘t spam 8 Chaos spawns for the battallion 

[Snakeb1te]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

It‘s not. That line makes sure you have at least one hero so you can‘t spam 8 Chaos spawns for the battallion 

What he means is - why can't they just word it something like "requires 7 mortal Slaves to Darkness units, at least one of which must be a hero".

I suppose it doesn't match the format. 

Anyway @Nasnad, have yourself a Plaguetouched if you can.

[Gistradagis]

3 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:

What he means is - why can't they just word it something like "requires 7 mortal Slaves to Darkness units, at least one of which must be a hero".

I suppose it doesn't match the format. 

Anyway @Nasnad, have yourself a Plaguetouched if you can.

Precisely. The wording is really weird and vague unless the warband requires 8 units total (1 hero minimum, and 7 more units). Even then, the wording's still a bit odd, but it makes more sense to me since I believe I've only seen lists with Plaguetouched that ran those 8 units.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Gistradagis

[Snakeb1te]

1 minute ago, Gistradagis said:

Precisely. The wording is really weird and vague unless the warband requires 8 units total (1 hero minimum, and 7 more units). Even then, the wording's still a bit odd, but it makes more sense to me since I believe I've only seen lists with Plaguetouched that ran those 8 units.

I've had a look at the three Cancon lists running Plaguetouched. They do indeed have 8+ units, but that could be because they did not want to risk running afoul of a ruling... or that they genuinely wanted those two extra Chaos Spawn in their list ;).

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, Snakeb1te said:

I've had a look at the three Cancon lists running Plaguetouched. They do indeed have 8+ units, but that could be because they did not want to risk running afoul of a ruling... or that they genuinely wanted those two extra Chaos Spawn in their list ;).

Never underestimate some good tentacles.

I mean, they are good for objectives! Yeah, that.

[Snakeb1te]

18 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

Never underestimate some good tentacles.

I mean, they are good for objectives! Yeah, that.

Park them on an objective, too gross that enemy units don't want to come near..? ;D

[Gistradagis]

5 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:

Park them on an objective, too gross that enemy units don't want to come near..? ;D

Gotta play it smart :^)

To be fair, though, a Spawn within a Plaguetouched Warband can surprise an opponent. It has enough Wounds to survive some minor scuffling, and could dish some damage by bouncing back MWs.

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:

Precisely. The wording is really weird and vague unless the warband requires 8 units total (1 hero minimum, and 7 more units). Even then, the wording's still a bit odd, but it makes more sense to me since I believe I've only seen lists with Plaguetouched that ran those 8 units.

The wording for units:

”Model fights in units. A unit can have one or more models”
 

The battalion:

1... Nurgle hero

7... Nurgle units.

So you must have one hero Nurgle unit and 7 other Nurgle units, that can be heroes as well (up to hero allowance naturally).

The wording is actually very clear.

[Nasnad]

Just now, NJohansson said:

The wording for units:

”Model fights in units. A unit can have one or more models”
 

The battalion:

1... Nurgle hero

7... Nurgle units.

So you must have one hero Nurgle unit and 7 other Nurgle units, that can be heroes as well (up to hero allowance naturally).

The wording is actually very clear.

But does the 1 nugle hero count as 1 of the 7 nugle units

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Nasnad said:

But does the 1 nugle hero count as 1 of the 7 nugle units

No, unless I've missed something that's not how battalions work. They give you a clear, straightforward list of what models you need. One hero with the mark of nurgle and 7 units with the mark of nurgle for a total of 8 units. Don't try to read into it further than that, it's no more than it says on the paper. If they wanted to mix them they like you suggested then they would have said 7 units with the mark of nurgle, one of which must be a hero. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Grimrock

[Nasnad]

Okay, going to try something else. Would love to get a battalion in, even at only 1500points, the extra command point seems really needed:

 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- General
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Master of Deception
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Artefact: Mark of the High-favoured
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Eternal Vendetta
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
- Spell: Binding Damnation
- Ravagers Command Trait: Bolstered by Hate

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
15 x Chaos Warriors (300)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Battalions
Ruinbringer Warband (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1500 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100

[readercolin]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Why would they lose the Mark of Khorne being in a Khorne army?

Also thank you for the detailed right up this is so exciting. 

They would have the Mark of Khorne, as they are Khorne units, not allies.  However, only Slaves to Darkness gets the Khorne Aura (re-roll 1's near hero's, also +1 to wound near your general).  This means that a unit of Khorne Chaos Knights w/ Ensorcelled Blades are hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's, and if they are near your general, wounding on a 2+.  However, when you run them in Khorne, they are straight 3+/3+.  Note that this means that being near your general in a Slaves army is a nearly 50% boost in damage output (for a block of 5, without the buff the knights will do 9.6 damage to a save of -, with the buff that turns into 14.3 damage).

This is also why I feel that if you want to run Mortal's, you are probably better off running Slaves than you are Khorne.  At 2k points, you can get 400 points of allies, which could easily be a Bloodsecrator (120pts) and a 5 man, 10 man, or 2 5 man units of wrathmongers (140pts/5).  This gives your Khorne units a solid +2 attacks if they are near the bloodsecrator and a unit of wrathmongers.

Here is an example army that you could run a 2k points for either Khorne or Slaves:

Heroes:
Lord on Karkadrak
Lord on Karkadrak
Lord on Foot
Bloodsecrator

Battleline:
40 Marauders
20 Marauders
20 Marauders

Other:
5 Marauder Horsemen
5 Marauder Horsemen
5 Wrathmongers
Warshrine

Bloodmarked Warband

This is a 3 drop list that can be run as either Slaves to Darkness or as Khorne, and trying to make use of the bloodmarked warband.  The basic idea would be to have a unit of marauders and a Karkadrak engaging an enemy unit with the wrathmongers and Bloodsecrator close enough to give the +1 attack aura.  Then, if the Karkadrak can kill a model, he can give the marauders +1 attacks.  If we are running Slaves to darkness and are near our general, every 10 marauders that can attack are going to deal ~26 damage on average before saves.  If we are Khorne, every 10 marauders are going to deal ~17 damage on average before saves.

Now, Khorne does have some things that can work to make this up.  If units die, Khorne gets Blood Tithe points, and this list is worth 11 tithe points on its own before counting your opponent's army.  The warshrine also gets an extra prayer.  Does this make up for the extra damage that you can get by running Slaves?  Maybe (probably not if you don't have Daemons you want to summon).  Is this the best way to run Slaves units?  Probably not (the battalion is REAAAALLY restrictive, and arguably not worth it).  

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, readercolin said:

They would have the Mark of Khorne, as they are Khorne units, not allies.  However, only Slaves to Darkness gets the Khorne Aura (re-roll 1's near hero's, also +1 to wound near your general).  This means that a unit of Khorne Chaos Knights w/ Ensorcelled Blades are hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's, and if they are near your general, wounding on a 2+.  However, when you run them in Khorne, they are straight 3+/3+.  Note that this means that being near your general in a Slaves army is a nearly 50% boost in damage output (for a block of 5, without the buff the knights will do 9.6 damage to a save of -, with the buff that turns into 14.3 damage).

This is also why I feel that if you want to run Mortal's, you are probably better off running Slaves than you are Khorne.  At 2k points, you can get 400 points of allies, which could easily be a Bloodsecrator (120pts) and a 5 man, 10 man, or 2 5 man units of wrathmongers (140pts/5).  This gives your Khorne units a solid +2 attacks if they are near the bloodsecrator and a unit of wrathmongers.

Here is an example army that you could run a 2k points for either Khorne or Slaves:

Heroes:
Lord on Karkadrak
Lord on Karkadrak
Lord on Foot
Bloodsecrator

Battleline:
40 Marauders
20 Marauders
20 Marauders

Other:
5 Marauder Horsemen
5 Marauder Horsemen
5 Wrathmongers
Warshrine

Bloodmarked Warband

This is a 3 drop list that can be run as either Slaves to Darkness or as Khorne, and trying to make use of the bloodmarked warband.  The basic idea would be to have a unit of marauders and a Karkadrak engaging an enemy unit with the wrathmongers and Bloodsecrator close enough to give the +1 attack aura.  Then, if the Karkadrak can kill a model, he can give the marauders +1 attacks.  If we are running Slaves to darkness and are near our general, every 10 marauders that can attack are going to deal ~26 damage on average before saves.  If we are Khorne, every 10 marauders are going to deal ~17 damage on average before saves.

Now, Khorne does have some things that can work to make this up.  If units die, Khorne gets Blood Tithe points, and this list is worth 11 tithe points on its own before counting your opponent's army.  The warshrine also gets an extra prayer.  Does this make up for the extra damage that you can get by running Slaves?  Maybe (probably not if you don't have Daemons you want to summon).  Is this the best way to run Slaves units?  Probably not (the battalion is REAAAALLY restrictive, and arguably not worth it).  

Yeah, my thing is I like Khorne, but I don't find that Khorne plays like Khorne. Khorne has a weird turtle up and every body move together playstyle on the table, but I prefer a more aggressive turn 1 or 2 charge and just get stuck in and get to fighting. You really have to move actual Blades of Khorne weirdly to get wholly within all the auras which feels restrictive. 

I guess I'd prefer Slaves just marked as Khorne. Still Khornate, but seems to be more aggressive. That's why I've just been playing Ironjawz lately. 

[Hannibal]

17 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

I'd definitely play Knights over Chariot any day. 

Like to elaborate this?

 

Chariots offer mortal wound output and are cheaper, meaning you can much easier fill a battalion. You can either opt for more mortal wound output after a charge (ruinbringer) or mortal wound output when being hit in melee (plaguetouched). I like them.

[Snakeb1te]

6 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

Like to elaborate this?

 

Chariots offer mortal wound output and are cheaper, meaning you can much easier fill a battalion. You can either opt for more mortal wound output after a charge (ruinbringer) or mortal wound output when being hit in melee (plaguetouched). I like them.

A single mortal wound on a 5+? That doesn't seem worth it in the slightest. The reason they're even considered is their very fast speed combined with a huge base to plug the gaps. But at 120 they're still pants, they're just cheaper than x5 knights.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Snakeb1te

[readercolin]

Just now, Snakeb1te said:

A single mortal wound on a 5+? That doesn't seem worth it in the slightest. The reason they're even considered is their very fast speed combined with a huge base to plug the gaps. But 120 they're still pants, they're just cheaper than x5 knights.

... It isn't a single mortal on a 5+.  You roll a number of dice equal to your charge roll.  So if you roll a 7 to charge, you get to roll 7 dice and for each 5+ you deal a mortal wound.

[Snakeb1te]

1 hour ago, Nasnad said:

Okay, going to try something else. Would love to get a battalion in, even at only 1500points, the extra command point seems really needed:

Tough to justify taking out the warshrine.  Without it you're losing a lot of staying power in the +1 save prayer, as well as the aura. Moreover, the  marauder horsemen are very fragile, so half of your warband will be gone fairly quickly. 

I've been thinking about a ruinbringer band for a little while now, but I'm not sure it's worth it unless you have at least five units. A full mounted list would get a lot of value from it but I'm not sure that your minimum size list - especially with only two of the tanky variants - would make this worth it.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Snakeb1te

[Ravinsild]

I'm not going to lie, my introduction to the Warhammer Fantasy universe was through Blood Bowl, as well as Warhammer Total War I and 2, so to me I've always loved the classic Chaos army. 

In Blood Bowl the classic chaos team is a bunch of Gors and Chaos Warriors with an optional Minotaur, which I love. In Total War Warhammer I loved using Chosen/Warriors and Knights with the old anvil and hammer just throw lines of Warriors/Chosen up to hold the line then smash into them with knights over and over (I also liked the Dragons tbh, but I don't think those exist in AOS) so a classic just knights and warriors/chosen army would be awesome for me, run as Khorne because Khorne is the best. 

I'm sad to see that Warriors aren't good (still). How are Chosen? How are the Lords on Manticore faring? The Ogroid Myrmidon seems awesome, and I just love the aesthetic of the classic Norscans with fur and trim and just being savage vikings, and chaos warriors. Total War: Warhammer II really sells that aesthetic and fantasy. Is such an army viable in AOS? 

Darkoath Chieftan, Darkoath Warqueen, Godsworn Hunt, Daemon Princes, etc.. I just love classic Chaos and I guess Chaos Undivided/Khorne  

[Snakeb1te]

 

22 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I'm not going to lie, my introduction to the Warhammer Fantasy universe was through Blood Bowl, as well as Warhammer Total War I and 2, so to me I've always loved the classic Chaos army. 

In Blood Bowl the classic chaos team is a bunch of Gors and Chaos Warriors with an optional Minotaur, which I love. In Total War Warhammer I loved using Chosen/Warriors and Knights with the old anvil and hammer just throw lines of Warriors/Chosen up to hold the line then smash into them with knights over and over (I also liked the Dragons tbh, but I don't think those exist in AOS) so a classic just knights and warriors/chosen army would be awesome for me, run as Khorne because Khorne is the best. 

I'm sad to see that Warriors aren't good (still). How are Chosen? How are the Lords on Manticore faring? The Ogroid Myrmidon seems awesome, and I just love the aesthetic of the classic Norscans with fur and trim and just being savage vikings, and chaos warriors. Total War: Warhammer II really sells that aesthetic and fantasy. Is such an army viable in AOS? 

Darkoath Chieftan, Darkoath Warqueen, Godsworn Hunt, Daemon Princes, etc.. I just love classic Chaos and I guess Chaos Undivided/Khorne  

I'm personally going to use the new sculpts of Chaos Warriors as Chosen, so that their combat ability matches their look and reputation. Sure I'll be missing an anvil, but the idea is to use some nurgle marauders as a bit of both (using Untamed Beasts as proxies).

To be honest though - any of the cultist units and Darkoath themes do not appear to be terribly competitive, as they completely miss out on the allegiance auras and Warshrine buffs, which are most of the army's allegiance.

Maybe do as I plan to, playing a small number of Warriors as Chosen, lots of Marauders, Knights, and beefy heroes.

[readercolin]

8 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I'm not going to lie, my introduction to the Warhammer Fantasy universe was through Blood Bowl, as well as Warhammer Total War I and 2, so to me I've always loved the classic Chaos army. 

In Blood Bowl the classic chaos team is a bunch of Gors and Chaos Warriors with an optional Minotaur, which I love. In Total War Warhammer I loved using Chosen/Warriors and Knights with the old anvil and hammer just throw lines of Warriors/Chosen up to hold the line then smash into them with knights over and over (I also liked the Dragons tbh, but I don't think those exist in AOS) so a classic just knights and warriors/chosen army would be awesome for me, run as Khorne because Khorne is the best. 

I'm sad to see that Warriors aren't good (still). How are Chosen? How are the Lords on Manticore faring? The Ogroid Myrmidon seems awesome, and I just love the aesthetic of the classic Norscans with fur and trim and just being savage vikings, and chaos warriors. Total War: Warhammer II really sells that aesthetic and fantasy. Is such an army viable in AOS? 

Darkoath Chieftan, Darkoath Warqueen, Godsworn Hunt, Daemon Princes, etc.. I just love classic Chaos and I guess Chaos Undivided/Khorne  

Chosen are... ok.  The biggest problem is that they are resin models and cost $45 for 5 of them, so they would have to be REALLY good to make that worth it for most people.  If they get a re-sculpt, I would expect to see a good bit more of them.  For 40 more points, you get about double the damage output as the same number of warriors against a save of -, and 3 times the damage output against a save of 4+, which makes them a lot killier than warriors are.  However, they have the same number of wounds, and they don't get a re-rollable save without a sorcerer nearby.  The other problem is that for 10 more points, you could instead run a block of 20 marauders which are going to deal about 50% more damage than they are - if you can get them all in range.  You might be noticing a trend here - marauders are just the best units to take in almost any situation.

Lord on Manticore is decent.  If you need a giant flying beatstick, well, he's a giant flying beatstick.  His command ability is utterly worthless however.  If you run a lance and blade, he is probably the strongest single unit that slaves have offensively (especially if you can get the charge off), while giving him a shield gives him a 5+ vs mortal wounds that helps against opposing sniping.  However, he has some solid competition in the Lord on Karkadrak, which does only a little less damage, but has a much better command ability, and more importantly, can't get bracketed by taking some damage.  The end result though is to go for whichever looks cooler to you unless you have a very specific build in mind.

As for going for more of a marauder build and being savage vikings - probably the best build in the book.  Marauders are probably the best unit in the book, and having a front line of them, maybe with a block of Chaos Knights to back them up is enough to take you pretty far.  Daemon Princes are also great units, especially in Despoilers lists.  However, the Darkoath Chieftain's, Warqueens, and the various cultist units have 1 major problem - they can't take marks.  If you read up above, you can see that the khorne mark with a general nearby can boost the damage of a block of knights by 50% without any other buffs.  Being unable to carry or benefit from these marks is a major blow to these model's playability.