AoS 2 Cities of Sigmar Discussion: Hallowheart

[Maturin]

7 hours ago, Eldarain said:

Unless you include your own heavy shooting package you can bridge in to alpha them.

Yeah, the only problem being that our main strength is magic, and our first magic phase will be wasted because of the distance. I'd like to keep a minimum number of drops, so I can alpha strike. I don't believe we could withstand some lists hitting us behind our screens.

[SwampHeart]

2 hours ago, Maturin said:

Yeah, the only problem being that our main strength is magic, and our first magic phase will be wasted because of the distance. I'd like to keep a minimum number of drops, so I can alpha strike. I don't believe we could withstand some lists hitting us behind our screens.

Our main strength is magic, not just offensive magic. Just because you can't do a ton of MWs in a turn is irrelevant, if you can use your magic to effectively neuter his alpha then your strength won. 

[Rune]

2 hours ago, Maturin said:

Yeah, the only problem being that our main strength is magic, and our first magic phase will be wasted because of the distance. I'd like to keep a minimum number of drops, so I can alpha strike. I don't believe we could withstand some lists hitting us behind our screens.

There are some pretty awesome defensive spells, as well as a couple of endless spells you want to use that turn.

Bridge + geminids + perhaps Balewind Vortex + perhaps comet.

 

Then there are warding brand, crystal aegis, ignite weapons as well as Pha's Protection and Shield of Thorns from your battlemages.

 

That's 9 good spells on turn one if you are forced to go first.

 

 

[SwampHeart]

23 minutes ago, Rune said:

There are some pretty awesome defensive spells, as well as a couple of endless spells you want to use that turn.

Bridge + geminids + perhaps Balewind Vortex + perhaps comet.

 

Then there are warding brand, crystal aegis, ignite weapons as well as Pha's Protection and Shield of Thorns from your battlemages.

 

That's 9 good spells on turn one if you are forced to go first.

 

 

I'd also add a maximized prismatic palisade for an additional -1 to hit (potentially). 

[Maturin]

2 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Our main strength is magic, not just offensive magic. Just because you can't do a ton of MWs in a turn is irrelevant, if you can use your magic to effectively neuter his alpha then your strength won. 

If you're playing against a list that wants to charge you really hard T1, then yes. But go do that against a lis that just wants to sit back and pepper you from afar and it's useless. You can only protect one unit with the -1Spell (Pha's protection) for ex.

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, Rune said:

There are some pretty awesome defensive spells, as well as a couple of endless spells you want to use that turn.

Bridge + geminids + perhaps Balewind Vortex + perhaps comet.

Then there are warding brand, crystal aegis, ignite weapons as well as Pha's Protection and Shield of Thorns from your battlemages.That's 9 good spells on turn one if you are forced to go first.

Sure, but even if you use bridge, depending on your list you don't have much to do T1.
Let's say that you've got 3 mages. T1 you cast : Comet, then soulbridge, then pha's protection + Warding brand on the screen you put in front of  your mages, then Umbral Spellportal, then either roaming wildfire or elemental cyclone or casandora etc through the portal and you're done.
If you do not hit hard enough with the shooting phase, then you're going to get crushed at his turn. I recon it's still cool to be able to cast that many spells, but I feel like playing the objectives game is complicated when you go for hallowheart. It's a fast army thanks to the bridge, but it's very risky to separate your army, don't you think ? Well with my list anyway.

[SwampHeart]

Just now, Maturin said:

Sure, but even if you use bridge, depending on your list you don't have much to do T1.
Let's say that you've got 3 mages. T1 you cast : Comet, then soulbridge, then pha's protection + Warding brand on the screen you put in front of  your mages, then Umbral Spellportal, then either roaming wildfire or elemental cyclone or casandora etc through the portal and you're done.
If you do not hit hard enough with the shooting phase, then you're going to get crushed at his turn. I recon it's still cool to be able to cast that many spells, but I feel like playing the objectives game is complicated when you go for hallowheart. It's a fast army thanks to the bridge, but it's very risky to separate your army, don't you think ? Well with my list anyway.

Not against specifically Greywater where the only goal is to kill their artillery. You don't do it every game but you do it when it means removing their alpha. If you cast Pha's, Ignite Weapons, and Warding Brand on Handgunners who go across the bridge you're golden. Hallowheart is tough to play objectives but you specifically stated Greywater is a hard counter to Hallowheart and it simply isn't - you've got the buffs and capacity to hurt their alpha faster than they hurt yours and you can play a longer game than they can. 

[Maturin]

4 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Not against specifically Greywater where the only goal is to kill their artillery. You don't do it every game but you do it when it means removing their alpha. If you cast Pha's, Ignite Weapons, and Warding Brand on Handgunners who go across the bridge you're golden. Hallowheart is tough to play objectives but you specifically stated Greywater is a hard counter to Hallowheart and it simply isn't - you've got the buffs and capacity to hurt their alpha faster than they hurt yours and you can play a longer game than they can. 

Wouldn't you send the mages with the handgunners though ? so they can blast what's left T2 ?

[SwampHeart]

Just now, Maturin said:

Wouldn't you send the mages with the handgunners though ? so they can blast what's left T2 ?

Just depends on the rest of their set up and what the rest of the table looks like. Bridge/Hallowheart in general are toolbox setups, you can't play them one way consistently, they just give you a lot of options on how to tackle the table, you've still got to use the right tool though. 

[Rune]

I do agree with you that Hallowheart is weak at playing the objective game. The bridge helps some. I've got a unit of Pistoliers to help out a bit more.

I think we have to win by doing significant work on their units the first two turns. 

 

Though my point was that we can do significant things with the wizards already on turn one. Definitely for sure significant enough to justify running Hallowheart.

 

I've only had 3 games as Hallowheart. However, all games I've been able to substantially swing the game turn one. Regardless if I went first or second. 

 

My list runs 4 wizards, 30 Handgunners and 20 Crossbowmen (as well as 40 guards, a freeguild General, a pack of Pistoliers and a bunch of endless spells).

 

Just my take so far!

[Maturin]

I'm going to try that against a greywater artillery train :

Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Artefact: Agloraxi Prism
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Elemental Cyclone (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Sear Wounds
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Warding Brand (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Roaming Wildfire
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Assassin (80)
- General
- Trait: Veteran of the Blazing Crusade
- Artefact: Pauldrons of Living Flame
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Ignite Weapons (Hallowheart Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Roaming Wildfire
Celestant-Prime (340)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
20 x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
Whitefire Retinue (140)
Everblaze Comet (100)
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 74

 

As you see, there's no much room for mistakes. Celestant prime is here to do 3MW guaranteed in a radius (heroes buffing artillery) and the Shadow warriors to cap any objectives I'd need. Between the Comet+Prime's ability, I should be able to kill all heroes T1, especially if I cast Roaming wildfire before.

[Maturin]

Just now, Rune said:

I do agree with you that Hallowheart is weak at playing the objective game. The bridge helps some. I've got a unit of Pistoliers to help out a bit more.

I think we have to win by doing significant work on their units the first two turns. 

Though my point was that we can do significant things with the wizards already on turn one. Definitely for sure significant enough to justify running Hallowheart.

I've only had 3 games as Hallowheart. However, all games I've been able to substantially swing the game turn one. Regardless if I went first or second. 

My list runs 4 wizards, 30 Handgunners and 20 Crossbowmen (as well as 40 guards, a freeguild General, a pack of Pistoliers and a bunch of endless spells).

Just my take so far!

Pistoliers are great indeed, aetherwings could do the same cheaper though or even a lone dark elf chariot :).
 

[Rune]

12 minutes ago, Maturin said:

I'm going to try that against a greywater artillery train :

Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Artefact: Agloraxi Prism
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Elemental Cyclone (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Sear Wounds
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Warding Brand (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Roaming Wildfire
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Assassin (80)
- General
- Trait: Veteran of the Blazing Crusade
- Artefact: Pauldrons of Living Flame
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Ignite Weapons (Hallowheart Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Roaming Wildfire
Celestant-Prime (340)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
20 x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
Whitefire Retinue (140)
Everblaze Comet (100)
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 74

 

As you see, there's no much room for mistakes. Celestant prime is here to do 3MW guaranteed in a radius (heroes buffing artillery) and the Shadow warriors to cap any objectives I'd need. Between the Comet+Prime's ability, I should be able to kill all heroes T1, especially if I cast Roaming wildfire before.

Definitely a help you know what you are up against :).

I ran 3 mages in one game, and after one got sniped I wasn't really benefitting from the arcane channeling.

 

Love a prime is in there. Considering that he is, and that you are only running 3 mages I would consider Hammerhal instead.

14 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Pistoliers are great indeed, aetherwings could do the same cheaper though or even a lone dark elf chariot :).
 

I want a decent number of models there too, so I don't consider the chariot an option. But I am going to consider the Aetherwings, thanks for the idea!
 

[Maturin]

@Rune Yeah, thats not stupid to have a back up mage in case one gets sniped. I also understand the reason behind the pistoliers, 5 bodies are better than one. 

Problem with the prime is that he usually doesnt survive enough to benefit from Hammerhal's CA. He s a glass canon, unless you use him as I intend to, as a 3Mw battery each turn. If terrain permits, I'll put him in terrain so he gets +1 save. I'll only charge with him if I really need to, because he's also really useful to grab a late objective.

Problem with Hallowheart, what I meant at first is that if you go second, against a shooting list then you re done. Thats why I want to alpha strike at maximum. Against my IJ friend the other day, I just used 20PG to withstand the blow. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Maturin

[Alessio]

21 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Not against specifically Greywater where the only goal is to kill their artillery. You don't do it every game but you do it when it means removing their alpha. If you cast Pha's, Ignite Weapons, and Warding Brand on Handgunners who go across the bridge you're golden. Hallowheart is tough to play objectives but you specifically stated Greywater is a hard counter to Hallowheart and it simply isn't - you've got the buffs and capacity to hurt their alpha faster than they hurt yours and you can play a longer game than they can. 

Sorry the ignorence, I'm starting now playing Hallowheart, can I ask you why it is difficult to play with objectifs,  in which kind of games is Hallowheart favored for?

[beaubinski]

I'm also ignorant and just playing Hallowheart. I mostly have a bunch of wizards, some phoenixes, and phoenix guard. Can I make that work pretty well? O do I need something else for battleline.

[Frowny]

Hallowheart rewards you got playing 4+ wizards, which are themselves quite slow. Further,  they often want to group up for the awesome command ability.  Then many lists take some endless spells to cast for several hundred points at least. Finally, since you've invested so much in this little group, almost every list will play several hundred points of defence, like a big block of pheonix guard or freeguild guard or something

All told, to maximize the allegiance abilities, most lists have spent half their points in a low mobility units and fragile heroes which makes contesting peripheral objectives difficult. Not Insurmountable but definitely you have to plan for it.

Contrast with say tempest eye or living city with buffs that affect infantry more and built in mobility tools 

 

 

Also, you could definitely do some pheonixes, wizards and pheonix guard. Hallowheart would be a fine fit if you want your allegiance to buff the wizards. You could consider pheonicium or living city if you'd prefer the allegiance stuff to buff the pheonixes

[Rune]

Anyone played against OBR and got some tips my way? I'm scared thinking of the two crawlers killing my mages or low bravery units. 

 

Running Freeguild units and am heavy on shooting. 

[Tidings]

9 hours ago, Rune said:

Anyone played against OBR and got some tips my way? I'm scared thinking of the two crawlers killing my mages or low bravery units. 

 

Running Freeguild units and am heavy on shooting. 

In casual games, you can often rely to some degree on hiding behind objects to block LoS. For a more reliable list that doesn't care as much about the table, just use SCE wizards instead of Battlemages/Sorceress. The crawlers basically counter Hallowheart otherwise imo. 

[Aelfric]

9 hours ago, Rune said:

Anyone played against OBR and got some tips my way? I'm scared thinking of the two crawlers killing my mages or low bravery units. 

 

Running Freeguild units and am heavy on shooting. 

I haven't played against them but have been considering using the Prismatic Pallisade Endless Spell as I know someone who is starting them.  Cast through a Portal out of unbind range directly in front of the Crawlers would cause some problems.  It is cast on a 5 though so not hard to dispel. Just depends if they have a wizard in range to do so.  It is only 30 points.

Alternatively you could try deepstriking some Shadow Warriors and charge them in.  The Crawlers can't fire at anything less than 6" away and cannot target another enemy unit if in melee combat.

[Maturin]

11 hours ago, Aelfric said:

It is cast on a 5 though so not hard to dispel.

When you dispel, you have to beat the cast made, not the value to required to cast, right ?
So when you play hallowheart with all the massive bonuses it's probable your opponent can't match your + to cast.

[Rune]

2 hours ago, Maturin said:

When you dispel, you have to beat the cast made, not the value to required to cast, right ?
So when you play hallowheart with all the massive bonuses it's probable your opponent can't match your + to cast.

To dispel it's only the value required to cast that you have to beat. Furthermore, in case you didn't know - dispelling a spell uses a cast not an unbind. 

[Maturin]

23 minutes ago, Rune said:

To dispel it's only the value required to cast that you have to beat. Furthermore, in case you didn't know - dispelling a spell uses a cast not an unbind. 

Cheers mate. So was it in WFB that the +to cast was to be counted in when you wanted to dispel ? It's incredible how wrong we play in the local GW store

Edited December 7, 2019 by Maturin

[Rune]

1 minute ago, Maturin said:

Cheers mate. So was it in WFB that the +to cast was to be counted in when you wanted to dispel ? It's incredible how wrong we play in the local GW store

No problem.

To get bonuses to dispel endless spells it needs to state that specifically. For instance, check "famed spell hunter" command trait for Hallowheart. 

 

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Cities_of_Sigmar#City_Allegiance:_Hallowheart_.28Aqshy.29

[Maturin]

Just now, Rune said:

No problem.

To get bonuses to dispel endless spells it needs to state that specifically. For instance, check "famed spell hunter" command trait for Hallowheart.

Wait a second, are we talking about the same thing ?

What's dispell and unbind for  you ? Nevermind I jsut looked at the rules in english and they're poorly written. In all fantasy games, "dispel" is used when you try to counter a wizard casting a spell right now but in AOS they call that "unbind". Which is stupid because it's endless spells that are bound to a wizard so they're the ones who should be unbound and not dispelled!

Ah anyway!