AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Arcian]

So i'm thinking of arming my mortek guards with swords. But when I eventually move to 2k points i'm thinking of doing 3X20 mortek guards. Or do you guys think two big blocks would be better? I assume it would be better if you took spears on the guards if you were planning of running a max unit of 40 of them.

[Obeisance]

So what is the design space for the faction?

One good expensive shooting unit. A lot of recursion, decent buff driven magic. High durability, low model count. Mid to low speed.

...

So it's a basically an elite melee list with melee buff magic and recursion?

I wish there was more accessible shooting to force engagement.

Cheaper troops to screen.

Where is the damage output coming from?

...

I'm just trying to get my head around what the army does. I've not been playing long and only have Skaven.

[firtahl]

I've seen a lot of talk about swords vs spears, and decided to see for myself. I'm going to assume no special weapons for any models. The assumption I'll make on attacking models is that for any given block of morteks, we can get 2 models attacking with 1" reach and 3 models attacking using 2". This means I assume we can get 50% more attacks with spears than swords up to a max of 40 attacks. I also assume no re-rolls on either side. We all understand that positioning is rarely perfect and the simple analysis here doesn't attempt to correct for piling in over time or the different decisions we might make about how to pull losses. Its just some good old speadsheet math.

In a nutshell, unmodified rend has the swords and spears equal in value on saves of 3+, with spears pulling ahead on 4+, and if you add the PE extra rend they are equal at 2+ with spears being better on 3+. Before you fire off that rage reply, remember that spears get that extra attack in this math, so of course 50% more attacks are better. Sound like fake news? Lets look at the calculations and maybe someone can point out funny business that changes the numbers.

2 attacks per model. we hit on +3, with it more than likely being +2 since you almost cant help but get +1 to hit in this army. +2 is .8333333. Add in exploding 6's and each roll is, on average, going to generate 1 hit (missing on 1's and double hits on 6's evens out). 4+ to wound is going to turn into .5, so each hit will generate .5 wounds. Long story short, every 2 attacks generates 1 wound. 

For a pack of 20 mortek we are currently at

Swords 20*2*1*.5=10

spears (20*1.5)*1*.5=15

Now the weapons diverge on rend. 0 for the spears and 1 for the swords. Below is a simple table showing the number of wounds not saved per weapon type per wounding roll.

Post save wounds
sword	spear		vs Save
0.333333	0.166667		2
0.5	0.333333		3
0.666667	0.5		4
0.833333	0.666667		5
1	0.833333		6

 

Ugly, but we can see that on a per wound bases the swords are better because the rend moves the damage up a spot on the matrix. But what about adjusted for that 50% extra attacks?

Post save wounds
sword	spear		vs Save
3.333333	2.5		2
5	5		3
6.666667	7.5		4
8.333333	10		5
10	12.5		6

And now you can see that while the rend is cool, its not quite as good as 50% extra dmg. Add in the PE extra rend ability and you get: 

Post save wounds
sword	spear		vs Save
5	5		2
6.666667	7.5		3
8.333333	10		4
10	12.5		5
10	15		6

Takeaway for me is that in 10 blocks its swords, and in 20 its a mix, but in 30+ ill probably be rocking some pointy sticks. Let me know what you think!

 

[Goldy751]

Hey guys want to hear a joke?

 

 

vokmortian doesnt get any lore spells becouse he doesnt have the right keyword. 
 

and he somehow costs 180 points. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Goldy751

[Arcian]

46 minutes ago, firtahl said:

*snip, bunch of math*

Are you leaning towards a big block of guard? Most of the theory lists I'm seeing usually cap at 20 or run a few groups of 20. I was thinking maybe 3x20 in 2k games? But that might be too much of a point investment.

[Sception]

10 minutes ago, Goldy751 said:

vokmortian doesnt get any lore spells becouse he doesnt have the right keyword.

This is generally thought to be a mistake that will get fixed in faq.  Even if it does get fixed he won't exactly be competitively good, but he'll at least be casually playable.

[Goldy751]

6 minutes ago, Sception said:

This is generally thought to be a mistake that will get fixed in faq.  Even if it does get fixed he won't exactly be competitively good, but he'll at least be casually playable.

Yeah i cant immagine that gw intended this to happen. He is a named character. The master of the bone tithe. 
 

if he gets fixed i will still play him in casual games. His battalion is actually really good. Its in the feast of bones book. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Goldy751

[Undeadly]

So, question, but I have two Feast of Bones sides of the Ossiarchs, but I'm having a hard time deciding on how to build the Stalkers or Guard. Which is the better, in your opinion.

[Major]

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

Where is the damage output coming from?

That was the question I asked as well. The damage comes from its synergies. You can get units in this army at +1 to hit, +1 attacks, rerolling failed hits, additional rend etc quite easily.

The trick I've found thus far is picking your sub faction and generals well. You can have entire armies on 2+ saves rerolling 1s with additional rend on attacks easy enough. Their strength comes from their ability to outlast an opponent similar to what the lore says while still having heavy hitting elite units.

It is quite easy to have a unit of Morghast Arkai on a 2+ save with a 5+ or 6+ deathless save and thier native 5+ save vs mortals, with 4 attacks instead of 3, hitting on 3,s and rerolling failed hits of 1, at rend -3, 3 damage. That is a tough unit for 200 odd pts.

[Major]

Just now, Undeadly said:

So, question, but I have two Feast of Bones sides of the Ossiarchs, but I'm having a hard time deciding on how to build the Stalkers or Guard. Which is the better, in your opinion.

I haven't seen a solid list with Stalkers yet but they could be useful as they may not dish out the damage but can easily get to a 2+ save, rerolling 1s with a 6+ deathless as well. Their problem is damage. THey may not hit as hard but they might be better where attrition is required.

[Major]

52 minutes ago, Arcian said:

Are you leaning towards a big block of guard? Most of the theory lists I'm seeing usually cap at 20 or run a few groups of 20. I was thinking maybe 3x20 in 2k games? But that might be too much of a point investment.

I find them to be a great investment however pricey. They are great battleline that you can easily get to a 2+ save rerolling 1s with a 6+ deathless and rend -1 on 3 attacks a model. This is a far lot better than their little brothers the skeleton warriors.

[Rivener]

How does anything in this army besides Katakros, a liege and Immortis Guard get to a 2+? 

[Arcian]

3 minutes ago, Major said:

I find them to be a great investment however pricey. They are great battleline that you can easily get to a 2+ save rerolling 1s with a 6+ deathless and rend -1 on 3 attacks a model. This is a far lot better than their little brothers the skeleton warriors.

So once I head into the world of 2k I'm thinking of doing 3x20 with swords. Or do you think a big block of 30-40 with spears would be better?  I might take deathriders in either config, not sure yet.  I guess I'm so in that camp of "don't want to build all swords and then spears end up being better if big blocks of 40 guard end up being the better choice" lol 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Arcian

[Tronhammer NZ]

3 minutes ago, Rivener said:

How does anything in this army besides Katakros, a liege and Immortis Guard get to a 2+? 

Morghast aren't monsters, so they and other units can get cover saves for one way.

[firtahl]

1 hour ago, Arcian said:

Are you leaning towards a big block of guard? Most of the theory lists I'm seeing usually cap at 20 or run a few groups of 20. I was thinking maybe 3x20 in 2k games? But that might be too much of a point investment.

My first few games are probably just going to be 40-40-10-10 MG with Arkhan and Katakros using Petrifex. the 40's will be spears and the 10's sword. This will help give me time to learn katakros and get a basic feel for playing the army without having to remember rules for a bunch of new units. Once I see where the MG are weak in context of some actual games then I'll look at something with more moving parts that can handle a bigger variety of opponents.

[Major]

35 minutes ago, Rivener said:

How does anything in this army besides Katakros, a liege and Immortis Guard get to a 2+? 

Take Arkai for example. Put together a Petrifex Elite army with them in there.
base 4+ save + a 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
+1 to save rolls from being in Petrifex Elite = 3+ save + 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
+1 to save rolls from Katakros' command ability = 2+ save + 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
If Nagash is in army rerolling failed saves of 1, if successful cast of Mystic Shield, rerolling failed saves of 1

Now squeezing Nagash and Katakros into a list that works is unlikely but Mystic Shield isn't and there may even be other ways to reroll failed saves (which I think there is) in this fashion that aren't springing to mind immediately.

[Rivener]

1 minute ago, Major said:

Take Arkai for example. Put together a Petrifex Elite army with them in there.
base 4+ save + a 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
+1 to save rolls from being in Petrifex Elite = 3+ save + 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
+1 to save rolls from Katakros' command ability = 2+ save + 5+ save vs mortals + a 6+ Deathless save for OBR keyword
If Nagash is in army rerolling failed saves of 1, if successful cast of Mystic Shield, rerolling failed saves of 1

Now squeezing Nagash and Katakros into a list that works is unlikely but Mystic Shield isn't and there may even be other ways to reroll failed saves (which I think there is) in this fashion that aren't springing to mind immediately.

Katakros only gives +1 save to Mortis Praetorians, not Petrifex.

[Major]

38 minutes ago, Arcian said:

So once I head into the world of 2k I'm thinking of doing 3x20 with swords. Or do you think a big block of 30-40 with spears would be better?  I might take deathriders in either config, not sure yet.  I guess I'm so in that camp of "don't want to build all swords and then spears end up being better if big blocks of 40 guard end up being the better choice

If they have these saves etc then you can overinvest in them easily which would possible push you into losing other synergies you could get or more board presence with faster moving units as well. I cant tell you NOT to take 2 units of 40 but I can say that there are other alternatives to doing this as well that you should certainly look at.

[Major]

3 minutes ago, Rivener said:

Katakros only gives +1 save to Mortis Praetorians, not Petrifex.

Indeed, well spotted sir! Throw em in terrain then hahaha but thats not likely to be possible often. Still, a 3+ rerolling saves of 1 with a 5+ vs mortals and a 6+ deathless is fairly good!

[Major]

29 minutes ago, firtahl said:

My first few games are probably just going to be 40-40-10-10 MG with Arkhan and Katakros using Petrifex. the 40's will be spears and the 10's sword. This will help give me time to learn katakros and get a basic feel for playing the army without having to remember rules for a bunch of new units. Once I see where the MG are weak in context of some actual games then I'll look at something with more moving parts that can handle a bigger variety of opponents.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Play and learn whatever way works best for you I reckon!

[Major]

15 minutes ago, Rivener said:

Katakros only gives +1 save to Mortis Praetorians, not Petrifex.

HOWEVER

Prime Necrophoros: This Necrophoros holds aloft Katakros’ personal battle banner. When you use this model’s Supreme Lord of the Bonereaper Legions command ability, it affects friendly Ossiarch Bonereapers units while they are wholly within 36" of this model instead of wholly within 18" of this model.

Keep Prime Necrophoros alive and add that +1 to the Arkai I say.

[Rivener]

2 minutes ago, Major said:

HOWEVER

Prime Necrophoros: This Necrophoros holds aloft Katakros’ personal battle banner. When you use this model’s Supreme Lord of the Bonereaper Legions command ability, it affects friendly Ossiarch Bonereapers units while they are wholly within 36" of this model instead of wholly within 18" of this model.

Keep Prime Necrophoros alive and add that +1 to the Arkai I say.

The command ability itself explicitly only adds the save to Mortis Praetorians, regardless of its range. 

[Major]

Just now, Rivener said:

The command ability itself explicitly only adds the save to Mortis Praetorians, regardless of its range. 

Prime Necrophoros being alive adds a bonus to Supreme Lord of the Bonereaper Legions in that it affects Ossiarch Bonereapers and at a greater range. The Prime's bonus does not specify that it is only part of the ability it is improving. Using this Command Ability once you have lost the Prime will see this command ability nerfed back to Praetorians. The rule does not specify that it is only for half of the command ability or just for the to-hit bonuses, it blankets the command ability and states it affect bonereaper's.

Is that how it may have been intended? Possibly not, but thats how it is worded (for now).

[Arcian]

1 hour ago, Major said:

If they have these saves etc then you can overinvest in them easily which would possible push you into losing other synergies you could get or more board presence with faster moving units as well. I cant tell you NOT to take 2 units of 40 but I can say that there are other alternatives to doing this as well that you should certainly look at.

I think you answered my question 😂 probably shouldn't go with big chunky units 

[Rarity Nouveau]

2 hours ago, Major said:

I haven't seen a solid list with Stalkers yet but they could be useful as they may not dish out the damage but can easily get to a 2+ save, rerolling 1s with a 6+ deathless as well. Their problem is damage. THey may not hit as hard but they might be better where attrition is required.

Stalkers are the swords, Guard are shields.