AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Mcthew]

Not sure if I'm looking forward to the reveal so I can laugh hysterically (with some relief that I'll no way buy a £60 level 2 hero that can be taken out turn 1, not to mention not needing to buy BR book 4)...

Or in the hope we're wrong, that HoS are not hated by the current writers and the Newborn reflect their origins in the warscroll.

Not that confident really.

I'll reserve my "just what the heck is going on at Games Workshop" moment until later though.

[Enoby]

In one way it will be disappointing if the leak is true - I'd have liked them to be 300-400 each and much better than a Keeper.

In a competitive sense, the cheaper models are probably better. Not only because our models are more expensive but also because, if they are support pieces, they won't take up too much of the list. I think, from what I've seen, Synessa will have a strong place in future lists. 

[LeonBox]

Well... if that leak is true, how very disappointing. These are the literal children of Slaanesh and that's it? Knowing all the spells is nice, I guess (awful mortal lore notwithstanding) but one cast and only 9 wounds? Deeply hoping this isn't the case but if it comes from the same source as the Kroak leak, chances are good that it is. 

[Enoby]

10 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Well... if that leak is true, how very disappointing. These are the literal children of Slaanesh and that's it? Knowing all the spells is nice, I guess (awful mortal lore notwithstanding) but one cast and only 9 wounds? Deeply hoping this isn't the case but if it comes from the same source as the Kroak leak, chances are good that it is. 

Everyone seems pretty unhappy with their rules/points in BR Kragnos. It could well be an attempt to tone down power in AoS 3. 

But I agree - I think we were all expecting more from the god spawn. I suppose they're only half a godspawn, so they're meant to be taken together as for over 500 for a 'proper' god, but that doesn't feel right. 

With the other complaints not relating to us, I think that either GW is intentionally dropping power levels or they've rushed this book and rules through for AoS 3. If the latter is the case, then it sucks that, by bad luck, we were caught getting less care and attention to our rules due to timing. 

We haven't seen the rest of their rules, and Twitter people do have a tendency to overexaggurate, so there may still be something good to them. But regardless, it's disappointing that they don't seem to have points or rules that live up to their models and lore.

Depending on AoS 3 and other points changes, I think I'll send another email into GW later on about them if they are truly disappointing.

[Jaskier]

This is based on the leaks I've read so far, and thus my thoughts may change as more and/or different information comes out.

The fact that these two beings that have been described as essentially the offspring of Slaanesh - which is something we've not really seen before with regards to the Chaos Gods (as far as I know) - and who have united the various hosts, ended up weaker overall than Greater Daemons feels completely wrong. Worse, they have rules that sounds cool but functionally aren't nearly as good as they should be because of the power-bracket these two have been forced into. 

To illustrate what I mean, let's use the rumoured rules for the caster as an example. She can cast with infinite range. That's great! She knows all the spells from the Slaanesh lores. Wow! She's a one cast wizard. Well...that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, if she has some bonuses to cast or can auto-cast like Teclis. She has no bonuses to cast. Sigh. The idea that you can ally this in to any Chaos army and have full access to both Slaanesh lores is cool, as is just having that option available to us, but when that's trapped on a 1-cast Wizard with no inherent bonuses to cast...in a meta where bonuses to cast and unbind are becoming increasingly prevalent, the value of that utility pretty much falls straight off a cliff. It's nice that you can always have an unlimited range Slothful Stupor handy in case you run into something like Gordrakk, but it's a very difficult spell to cast, and if you fail that cast then your expensive support hero isn't contributing anything from what other rules we've seen. Further, having unlimited casting range means you can avoid unbinding ranges, but again, if you fail that cast then your support piece is presumably stuck far out of reach to help contest objectives, provide a Locus, etc. There's zero reason this model shouldn't have at least had a +1 or re-roll for casting and multiple casts, something that would doubtless have happened if they had been designed to sit in that 400+ point bracket like Glutos and Morathi. Instead of being a powerful support hero with strong magic potential, it has a cool but functionally inconsistent/weak gimmick and little else. 

Now, let me be clear that I'm sure both will be perfectly viable, and I'm deliberately selling the caster one short just to illustrate my point of what could have been. The Slaanesh book as a whole is the perfect example of why you should never underestimate a unit that might seem weak, because the new book is very strong at a competitive level - even when using units that are seen as being 'weaker' than their contemporaries in other factions. However, the rules for these two simply don't match the hype we were given about them, especially given how seemingly important their 'birth' was in the first Broken Realms book. I'm disappointed not because they won't be viable, I'm disappointed because they should be so much stronger than they are. I wouldn't have cared if these things were 100 or more points overpriced, if they had cool, thematic and powerful rules that made me want to use them - they could be overpriced to a point of not being competitive, but if they actually did something cool and unique or were just really powerful daemon monsters, I'd be over the moon. As it stands, they're just gimmicky, and there's nothing exciting about them. They went from day one pre-orders for both to 'maybe laters' and that's a pretty severe indictment given how excited I was for them. They should have been individually equivalent to the Idoneth Eidolons at least, then the two taken together would at least feel like a match for the deities running around. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Jaskier

[MothmanDraws]

9 wounds might be fine if we end up with 40ks look out sir rules.  Im just glad they didnt go fluffy and say they have 6 wounds. 

[Enoby]

I totally agree with you @Jaskier

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if the marketing team previewed the rules properly. Now Twitter has done the advertising for them and had put everyone's hopes down.

If GW had shown the scrolls/some rules before hand, we could have had some healthy speculation before the inevitable leak. Now all we have is people who have said "everything's bad" and unhyped a lot of people. Instead of being let down gently, we've been dropped and are still not sure exactly why things are bad, just to expect the worst.

Exact same thing happened before with our battletome. I think, if GW had done a proper job and hyped up the rules that had changed in our battletome (e.g. Depravity), we could have got excited and the reaction to the rest of the book may have been disappointed, but less blindsighted and so less extreme. 

[Jaskier]

20 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said:

9 wounds might be fine if we end up with 40ks look out sir rules.  Im just glad they didnt go fluffy and say they have 6 wounds. 

9 Wounds with an innate -1 to be hit and presumably a 4+ save is perfectly fine. I don't think anyone's issue here is how competitively viable the Twins are, at least on my part I just expected more from them. These just don't look like super interesting pieces to run. Syll'Esske has a far more flavourful and cool warscroll than these two appear to. Hell, I think Shalaxi has a cooler and better executed (the one thing she does really well is absolutely annihilate heroes) gimmick than these two do, and that's the real problem - they shouldn't be gimmick pieces, which is what it appears they are. A wizard with unlimited range that knows all the lore spells would feel really cool and strong if it had any kind of bonuses or extra casts, but when it's strapped to a 1-cast wizard with no inherent bonuses, it feels exactly like a tacked-on gimmick rule.

I don't need or want another Teclis, but when it's arguable that a generic Contorted Epitome is a better overall caster than what is supposedly a demigod that is designed around being a utility caster, I have next to zero reason to get excited to run said demigod. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

13 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

don't need or want another Teclis, but when it's arguable that a generic Contorted Epitome is a better overall caster than what is supposedly a demigod that is designed around being a utility caster, I have next to zero reason to get excited to run said demigod. 

I agree. I think GW may well have dropped the ball here - I hope not, and we don't have the full story - but it seems like someone on the rules team was of a totally different mindset to the lore, or the lore has been presented to us incorrectly. 

I'd be more willing to buy it if they said "Currently the newborn are in their infancy stage, and are weaker than a greater daemon. But as the narrative progresses they will grow stronger" or something like that.

Same as if these were generic middle of the road daemons, or daemon princes.

But for something that was making even greater daemons bow down to it, you'd hope they'd actually be stronger

[LeonBox]

In fairness we haven't seen the warscrolls yet and we know nothing about Dexcessa's stats save for one person saying the rules are bad, so it may be worth withholding judgment for the time being. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by LeonBox

[Enoby]

I've seen some very difficult to parse rules for Dexcessa. I think they can run and charge, retreat and charge, get -1 to hit them, have a command ability but I don't know what it is, and get +1 attack to both their melee profile every turn.

[MothmanDraws]

Retreat and charge is cool but 9 wounds on 4+ save is not surviving to retreat

[Mcthew]

The timing of this isn't good though, do you think? 

I know HoS players are a fraction (or a faction!) of all AoS players, but dropping a sub-par AoS 3.0 warscroll on the same day as a major AoS 3.0 reveal could be a big mistake.

Nothing dampens ones enthusiasm for new rules by demonstrating that you're not very good at writing them.

But... this could all be a ruse, and the Newborn might have an amazing warscroll. Hoping for the best then...

[LeonBox]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I've seen some very difficult to parse rules for Dexcessa. I think they can run and charge, retreat and charge, get -1 to hit them, have a command ability but I don't know what it is, and get +1 attack to both their melee profile every turn.

Where did you see these rules, out of interest? 

[Enoby]

Just now, LeonBox said:

Where did you see these rules, out of interest? 

On the AoS reddit discord from a 4chan thread. 

[LeonBox]

2 minutes ago, Enoby said:

On the AoS reddit discord from a 4chan thread. 

I wonder how good their melee profile is going to be. They lack both impaling claws and elegant greatswords, and that goofy little sceptre doesn't look like it's bringing the hurt. I'd assume they share the Keeper's Locus on a 3+ rule, too. Gonna be pretty hard to keep them alive to benefit from that +1 attack per turn. 

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, LeonBox said:

I wonder how good their melee profile is going to be. They lack both impaling claws and elegant greatswords, and that goofy little sceptre doesn't look like it's bringing the hurt. I'd assume they share the Keeper's Locus on a 3+ rule, too. Gonna be pretty hard to keep them alive to benefit from that +1 attack per turn. 

From what this leak said (though it was in pretty broken English), they have a similar KoS attack profile, but no 5 damage claws.

So 4 attacks at 2/3/-/2 and 2 attacks at 3/3/-2/2. Probably better to keep them out of combat for a turn. 

I think (and this was also really unclear) they also can use command abilities anywhere on the board. 

[Koala]

Sigh. Maybe just wait ONE DAY untill we see the actual profile. 

Then we can start the inevitable complaints. 

(Or, even better, wait untill some of us played with them and can give us an actual feedback about it).

[LeonBox]

2 minutes ago, Enoby said:

From what this leak said (though it was in pretty broken English), they have a similar KoS attack profile, but no 5 damage claws.

So 4 attacks at 2/3/-/2 and 2 attacks at 3/3/-2/2. Probably better to keep them out of combat for a turn. 

I think (and this was also really unclear) they also can use command abilities anywhere on the board. 

How utterly underwhelming. If the rules for both twins end up the same as the leaks, I think I'll cheerfully pass on picking up the kit. I already own two Keepers and it sounds like they'll be better options than the twins. 

[Jaskier]

11 minutes ago, Koala said:

Sigh. Maybe just wait ONE DAY untill we see the actual profile. 

Then we can start the inevitable complaints. 

(Or, even better, wait untill some of us played with them and can give us an actual feedback about it).

I think you're misreading the room, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'm not complaining about how competitive they are. In fact, I think they actually look quite competitive. I'm disappointed because I wanted these to be proper god-tier equivalent models reflecting their lore - I was really hoping that we'd be getting something like a Morathi or Godrakk equivalent. These just look like slightly weaker Keepers (in terms of overall stats and abilities) with underwhelming gimmicks. I'm underwhelmed by them.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Jaskier

[LeonBox]

5 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I think you're misreading the room, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'm not complaining about how competitive they are. In fact, I think they actually look quite competitive. I'm disappointed because I wanted these to be proper god-tier equivalent models reflecting their lore - I was really hoping that we'd be getting something like a Morathi or Godrakk equivalent. These just look like slightly weaker Keepers (in terms of overall stats and abilities) with underwhelming gimmicks. I'm underwhelmed by them.

Same. I was already disappointed by the models (there's way too much Keeper in them, and the sceptre is pretty unimpressive in either build) but was hoping they might have some cool rules. If the leaks are true they don't. 

At least we have the February release with all of the cool mortal models. Could be worse; we could be BoC. 

[MothmanDraws]

Ye slaanesh is in a spot where it can do well on tabletop, but does so in the most boring way possible. Its either STD pretending to be hedonites, or its 6 units of slickblade seekers, getting good damage spreads well and summoning 60 daemonettes. Which is strong yes but its the only real way to run with much success. Or its Archaon being buffed by glutos. 

[Enoby]

I enjoy my current job, but it's at times like this that I think I should try get into the rules team and write the next Slaanesh battletome myself

[MothmanDraws]

I am waiting for the final blow, the 3.0 points adjustment where everyone's points go up. They will reveal the slaanesh costs were actually 2.0 designed costs and hedonites go up 20-30% across the board.

[Feorag]

45 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said:

I am waiting for the final blow, the 3.0 points adjustment where everyone's points go up. They will reveal the slaanesh costs were actually 2.0 designed costs and hedonites go up 20-30% across the board.

180 point lord of pain and shard speaker

160 point slaangors 😆