AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Here me out, the following recipe needs a Verminlord Corrupter, Greyseer, Clawlord, Purple Sun, Warlord battalion,  30 Plague Monks,  totaling 900 pts:

1) Cast Hoarfrost, roll like a god, get the 5+, target Plague Monks

2) Greyseer uses Skavenbrew artifact on Plague Monks

3) Cast Purple Sun

4) Charge Plaguemonks + Clawlord w/ Warpstone Charm

5) Lord of Pestilence CA on Plaguemonks. 

Result is ~120 attacks, 3" RNG,  +2/+3/-5/1 dmg. Nat 6's are -7 rend!

I mean yes pretty great, although you could probably do the same thing on a unit of 60 clanrats:

with the verminlord warbringer (if even encessary) will give them +1 to hit and to wound.

give the gnash gnaw on their bomes and skavenbrew.

and now we watch as the enemy takes 180 attacks with rend -5 to the phase

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:08 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

with the verminlord warbringer (if even encessary) will give them +1 to hit and to wound.

give the gnash gnaw on their bomes and skavenbrew.

Man, this has been a personal sticking point of mine for 2 editions now. By both being command abilities in the combat phase its been hair-pulling frustration trying to get stormvermin to be super scary. If I had anything to add to your FAQ, I'd make the Gnash-Gnash ability just that, an ability. So that you can put a All-Out-Attack or Tyrant of Battle CA. Having the retinue ability of other foot heroes where you activate as a pair would also just make clawlords way more enticing en masse. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I do think Skaven need something akin to the Kruleboyz dirty tricks, just call them Plan-Schemes, and each Clan could get a couple to pick from, and up to 3 units could do one depending on their Clan.  A universal one could be at the beginning of the Combat Phase, a unit within 3" of the enemy could perform a retreat move.  Seems like a ratty thing they would do

This and perhaps double the number of reinforcement points they can do, so a proper rat-horde can be done, and bring back the extra Bravery in numbers (at least I think the previous book had that didn't it?).  And require movement trays be used for deployment so it doesn't take half the game just to set them up

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I do think Skaven need something akin to the Kruleboyz dirty tricks, just call them Plan-Schemes, and each Clan could get a couple to pick from, and up to 3 units could do one depending on their Clan.  A universal one could be at the beginning of the Combat Phase, a unit within 3" of the enemy could perform a retreat move.  Seems like a ratty thing they would do

This and perhaps double the number of reinforcement points they can do, so a proper rat-horde can be done, and bring back the extra Bravery in numbers (at least I think the previous book had that didn't it?).  And require movement trays be used for deployment so it doesn't take half the game just to set them up

I’ll have to take a look at the dirty tricks. Don’t really know what they do, but till them cheers and a happy new year

[Skreech Verminking]

16 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I do think Skaven need something akin to the Kruleboyz dirty tricks, just call them Plan-Schemes, and each Clan could get a couple to pick from, and up to 3 units could do one depending on their Clan.  A universal one could be at the beginning of the Combat Phase, a unit within 3" of the enemy could perform a retreat move.  Seems like a ratty thing they would do

This and perhaps double the number of reinforcement points they can do, so a proper rat-horde can be done, and bring back the extra Bravery in numbers (at least I think the previous book had that didn't it?).  And require movement trays be used for deployment so it doesn't take half the game just to set them up

So I just had a look how those dirty tricks work, and you just brightened my day.

I think I finally found something that I can exchange three clawsteps for (I dislike how the ability’s feels more like a three dudes holding hands thing)

with a few tweaks I think I might be able to make some plan-schemes for my homebrew faq that can be used when fielding 3 grey seers, just gotta make certain it won’t feel like three rats holding hands

[Skreech Verminking]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:41 PM, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@Skreech Verminking i re-read your FAQ suggestion and made some notes as i went through. They're condensed below. 

Overall thoughts: I feel a lot of suggestions are hopiuem fueled but they are fun, which is the point. Frankly nailing down the battle trait section could make everything else fall into place and not require much change elsewhere. That doesn't necessarily mean adding many more rules (see your Moulder section) but can suddenly make our troop units more fun. This is a flaw I think that our current book has where the battle traits are basically hero locked, and doesn't support our massive bench of units in a meaningful way.

Your design philosophy seems to about filling in gaps and building upon the old. If I were you, i'd go full tin-foil-hat and make some crazy structural changes, this is a fan FAQ after all. AKA you can get more nutty. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Battle Traits
- I don't have much context for your choice/necessity for bravery modification. I do recognize this was our old rule but theres new tech out there we can use. We obviously suffer the most from bravery in the game but in the larger picture I'd wait to see if bravery is used differently altogether in 4.0. I will suggest however to consider adding horde bonuses directly onto warscrolls so that you can tailor them to what their MSU is (see your clanrat rule).
 
- Too little context to justify a new battlefield role. I see what you did with the discounted points and the  tech is already in game to restrict reinforcement points with controlling battleline. 
 
- More reinforcement points, no argument there.
 
- Redmaw changes i remember discussing in length about. You present a solid modification to a still problematic ability.
 
- Clawlords: recommend min. 3 required for the bonus ability to stay in line with the others and would make greater use of the fun ability. Personal taste but instead a 4+ refund if issued to verminous unit? Commmand point centric builds is the verminous way regardless.
 
- Moulder: The design is a welcome one that is adaptive and reminds me a lot of the Legion of the First Prince sub-allegiance ability to adapt mid combat for S2D armies. However, the individual mutations are wordy as hell and as a player I'd prefer a single ability (theres lots of "in addition"). This section has the most fat to trim.
 
Spell Lores
Personal taste but these spells feel outdated. i'm ready to move on and try new tech for our greyseers. Same goes for the Warpvolt lore. The Verminlords certainly need their own lore, perhaps use this space to recommend 3 spells for them exclusively?
 
Command Traits
- Overseer of Destruction: I see what you're trying to do, you wanna make Doom-flayers good again. I see you. I say let them eat cake. Here's a wild idea but why not make 3 weapon teams get that bonus at the list building stage? If you're using up a command trait you might as well garauntee that the units get their bonus the whole game.
 
- Architect of Death: An intriguing change considering the plagueclaw's debuff on targeting a unit. Now you can hit two units with one model. I like it.
 
Warscrolls
For the most part warscroll re-writes need to be done across the board. Without much context, they seem arbitrary, but i understand the fun they add. The additions that consider the other changes in your FAQ are what is most relevant.

Notable exclusions are Skritch Spiteclaw and the Screaming Bell, both currently do nothing and any suggested changes are welcome.  

Grand Strats
-Hired to Kill-slay: youre picking the hardest target, which incentivises alpha striking and overwhelming firepower. this is perfectly viable but a playstyle thats been done before. I instead prefer a feat of cunning and careful planning not so much the target choice. For example, "This grand strat is completed if an eshin hero slays and enemy hero picked to be a target from the Eshin battle trait and wasn't damaged by any other friendly units that turn". 1V1. So its possible for a single deathmaster to chase down a foot hero while still giving your opponent some counter-play AND incorporating the battle trait. 

-Alpha Rat: This is hilarious. Appreciate that its not clan locked as well. Theres built in diminishing returns by going beyond 3 heroes as it might be harder to convince your opponent to kill more. Very clever design. You should be proud of this one. 

-Who to blame-fault: Yes. 

Points
Really hard to make meaningful point changes without it being a race to the bottom and also considering my point about the warscrolls. That said, I recognize your love for stormvermin.

Hot take: We may need to get real and also consider the possibility of cutting models completely from our line. I'm pretty sure this is the most reasonable/honest thing GW could read from your fan FAQ.

So I took a good look at your comments and they are very inspiring.

if those runours didn’t exist of skaven getting an update soonish, I might actually be enticed flipping the entire book and making my own new crazy skaven rules. Currently though I’ll just write something that can still be used tjis edition and still gives us the skaven feeling, with which your comments will be very helpful.

As for the command trait overseer of destruction I have rewritten, you suggested that I should make it like a buff that helps weapon teams from the start instead of being a buff being given to those weapon teams.

I really like that although in this case I was wondering if it would make sense to instead of limiting it to only 3 weapon teams that it would instead be a buffer for all weapon teams in the army. This should at least make it a bit more interesting for those player who would like to use a few more weapon teams then just 3.

it would also be a justify-able command trait that can be considered taking when compared to others.

what do you think?

[Filius]

I'll come back to my "Clanrats vs. Stormvermin"-Topic: I just found rule 12.3. …

Quote

… you must make combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within
range of an enemy model.

That instantly raised the question: How many Models can you bring into 2 Inch Range (if you take rusty spears for the clanrats) of an enemy unit? It sure depends on the size of the enemy unit, but I would assume that a unit of 60 Clanrats has a hard time finding any enemy unit, that allows all 60 to attack.

So … I have a question to the more experienced Skaven players: How many Minis can you bring in combat range on avarage? And: Are there any advantages to big units (30+), beyond the fact, that they are harder to kill?

[Lord Krungharr]

7 hours ago, Filius said:

I'll come back to my "Clanrats vs. Stormvermin"-Topic: I just found rule 12.3. …

That instantly raised the question: How many Models can you bring into 2 Inch Range (if you take rusty spears for the clanrats) of an enemy unit? It sure depends on the size of the enemy unit, but I would assume that a unit of 60 Clanrats has a hard time finding any enemy unit, that allows all 60 to attack.

So … I have a question to the more experienced Skaven players: How many Minis can you bring in combat range on avarage? And: Are there any advantages to big units (30+), beyond the fact, that they are harder to kill?

I think you probably could get 30-40 in range of even a unit like 6 Troggoths for example.  If they're ranked 3x2, that's an outer rectangle of 20" if you can get them all around, and at 2" range the back row of 3 rows of Clanrats could spear to the front, thus all 60 could strike if they surround the Trogg-block.

Another advantage to the big units are objective control and more economic use of buffs and abilities.  Of course the converse is also possible, enemy debuffs and attacks going after 1 target instead.  Oh, and a big one with Clanrats would be taking with a Warp Grinder, and hiding 6 weapon teams in 1 unit, SURPRISE!  6 Warp Fire Throwers or 6 Ratling Guns or combo (the Warp Fire doesn't work well vs Sons of Behemat 😛 )

 

Edited January 3 by Lord Krungharr

[Skreech Verminking]

11 hours ago, Filius said:

I'll come back to my "Clanrats vs. Stormvermin"-Topic: I just found rule 12.3. …

That instantly raised the question: How many Models can you bring into 2 Inch Range (if you take rusty spears for the clanrats) of an enemy unit? It sure depends on the size of the enemy unit, but I would assume that a unit of 60 Clanrats has a hard time finding any enemy unit, that allows all 60 to attack.

So … I have a question to the more experienced Skaven players: How many Minis can you bring in combat range on avarage? And: Are there any advantages to big units (30+), beyond the fact, that they are harder to kill?

So I should mention, skaven currently (this might change in the upcoming edition though) have a rule that increases the skaven melee weapon range by 1 inch for every 10 models they have in their units to a maximum of 3inches.

considering that you’ll often have with bigger blobs of clanrats or stormvermins the change to basically attack out of 4 ranks.

[Garrac]

Hoping that TOW pdf rules for skavens make these mfers come back:

[Skreech Verminking]

4 minutes ago, Garrac said:

Hoping that TOW pdf rules for skavens make these mfers come back:

Yes-yes.

man I miss those misfire charts 

[Filius]

14 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think you probably could get 30-40 in range of even a unit like 6 Troggoths for example.  If they're ranked 3x2, that's an outer rectangle of 20" if you can get them all around, and at 2" range the back row of 3 rows of Clanrats could spear to the front, thus all 60 could strike if they surround the Trogg-block.

Another advantage to the big units are objective control and more economic use of buffs and abilities.  Of course the converse is also possible, enemy debuffs and attacks going after 1 target instead.  Oh, and a big one with Clanrats would be taking with a Warp Grinder, and hiding 6 weapon teams in 1 unit, SURPRISE!  6 Warp Fire Throwers or 6 Ratling Guns or combo (the Warp Fire doesn't work well vs Sons of Behemat 😛 )

 

Ouh, yeah! I hadn't noticed the Weapon-Teams hiding Mechanism in this Edition yet. Thanks a lot for pointing out!

10 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So I should mention, skaven currently (this might change in the upcoming edition though) have a rule that increases the skaven melee weapon range by 1 inch for every 10 models they have in their units to a maximum of 3inches.

considering that you’ll often have with bigger blobs of clanrats or stormvermins the change to basically attack out of 4 ranks.

Ouh, yeah, again! I hadn't noticed the additional range rule also. My 3rd edition battletome is still in the Mail, hehe. Thank you so much.

Sound like all the fun and games, I chose the Skaven for back then … it's great to see, that they are a funny and fun faction still. Ha! I'm getting more excited every day.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:31 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

I really like that although in this case I was wondering if it would make sense to instead of limiting it to only 3 weapon teams that it would instead be a buffer for all weapon teams in the army.

Says the player who spams weapon teams. Ive seen your list building before. 

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Says the player who spams weapon teams. Ive seen your list building before. 

Yes-yes

[Garrac]

Commanders Of The Warlord Clans 25 x 25mm

Grey Seers 25 x 25mm

Clan Skryre Warlock Engineers 25 x 25mm

Clan Eshin Master Assassins 25 x 25mm

Clan Pestilens Plague Priests 25 x 25mm

Stormvermin 25 x 25mm

Clanrats 25 x 25mm

Weapon Teams 25 x 50mm

Warplock Jezzails 25 x 50mm

Poisoned Wind Globadiers 25x25mm

Rat Swarms 40 x 40mm

Packmasters & Master Moulders 25 x 25mm

Rat Ogres 50 x 50mm

Giant Rats 25 x 25mm

Night Runners 25 x 25mm

Gutter Runners 25 x 25mm

Plague Monks 25 x 25mm

Plague Censer Bearers 25 x 25mm

Screaming Bell 60 x 100mm

Plague Furnace 60 x 100mm

Doomwheel 50 x 100mm

Hell Pit Abomination 60 x 100mm

Warp Lightning Cannon 50 x 100mm

Plagueclaw Catapult 50 x 100mm

Source: https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTheOldWorld/posts/pfbid0udAE55FsVTvuCgrayrGFUVhpjD2pjPJ8LT3TK3mHMRmgVTdbQoYCctdmepaTg48fl

[Garrac]

Few things to note here:

-Yeap, everything up in size, and now i have to change like 300-350 bases, ******

-No hero options for melee guys? Unless the "Commanders Of The Warlord Clans " option has standard options, i guess heroes wont be a thing in TOW

-No slaves

-No FW stuff

-No spetial characters in sight

-Packmasters and Master Moulders? Will one of them be a character?

-No Verminlords

-No Stormfiends

Edited January 4 by Garrac

[Skreech Verminking]

12 hours ago, Garrac said:

Few things to note here:

-Yeap, everything up in size, and now i have to change like 300-350 bases, ******

-No hero options for melee guys? Unless the "Commanders Of The Warlord Clans " option has standard options, i guess heroes wont be a thing in TOW

-No slaves

-No FW stuff

-No spetial characters in sight

-Packmasters and Master Moulders? Will one of them be a character?

-No Verminlords

-No Stormfiends

That there aren’t any stormfiends makes sense. But verminlords? I mean they always where part of skavens society, and while thanqoul didn’t exist back the. Or at least unlikely, he wasn’t the only grey seer capable of summoning verminlords.

-no slaves I guess they fear a return if the slave spamm that existed in 8th although maybe its possible that the base size for clanrats will also be that for the slaves since slaves are what basically halve the skaven box comes with.

it is sad to here that no bas size for fw stuff is announced, not so great but I’m not really worrying.

as for no special characters, I was hoping we’ll see ikitt, since he was leading the skryre forces back in the skaven civil war

[Beliman]

14 hours ago, Garrac said:

No spetial characters in sight

Take in mind that the Specialist Team always throw a "legends" PDF with old or even converted stuff. Let's wait and see if there is more behind the curtain.

[Garrac]

Welp, after 9 years undecided, Im finally taking the bases of my rats, and turning them round. I guess Ill go an try some AoS now, but Ill also try to buy movememt trays adaptes to round bases.

Not going to make a hard effort on going from 20x20 square to 25x25 square tho, safe for some minis that dont have rules on AoS (like standard bearers)

Edited January 6 by Garrac

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, Garrac said:

Welp, after 9 years undecided, Im finally taking the bases of my rats, and turning them round. I guess Ill go an try some AoS now, but Ill also try to buy movememt trays adaptes to round bases.

Not going to make a hard effort on going from 20x20 square to 25x25 square tho, safe for some minis that dont have rules on AoS (like standard bearers)

Same here.

I enjoy aos (although not our current skaven battletome) and there’s a good chance I’ll keep playing that system.

personally that does mean I’ll likely be either building, 3d printing or buying square unit trays for my round based models

[Lord Krungharr]

Thinking about the 1000 point event in March after the the 3000 point event (using Ogors for the 3K).  Gotta limit my hobby time so was thinking my Clan Eshin is all done already...what about this?

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Masters of Execution
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Deathmaster (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Shadowmaster
- Artefact: Farskitter Cloak
Deathmaster (110)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Deathmaster (110)
Slynk Skittershank (220)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
4 x Skittershank's Clawpack (0)
Vermintide (30)
*Warlord
Artefact

Total: 980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 44
Drops: 9
Wasn't sure about battalions yet.  Hard to fit a Deceiver or Warbringer or even a Warpseer in 1K (I only have 1 unit of Clan Rats, and unpainted, and my wife is complaining about too much time being spent on Warhammering, so trying to use what's painted).

Could do this too but what CT and artefacts then?:

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Masters of Execution
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Verminlord Warpseer (330)
- General
Deathmaster (110)
- Artefact: Farskitter Cloak
Deathmaster (110)
Deathmaster (110)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
Vermintide (30)
*Warlord
Artefact

Total: 990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 42
Drops: 7
 

Edited January 9 by Lord Krungharr

[Garrac]

46 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thinking about the 1000 point event in March after the the 3000 point event (using Ogors for the 3K).  Gotta limit my hobby time so was thinking my Clan Eshin is all done already...what about this?

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Masters of Execution
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Deathmaster (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Shadowmaster
- Artefact: Farskitter Cloak
Deathmaster (110)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Deathmaster (110)
Slynk Skittershank (220)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
4 x Skittershank's Clawpack (0)
Vermintide (30)
*Warlord
Artefact

Total: 980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 44
Drops: 9
Wasn't sure about battalions yet.  Hard to fit a Deceiver or Warbringer or even a Warpseer in 1K (I only have 1 unit of Clan Rats, and unpainted, and my wife is complaining about too much time being spent on Warhammering, so trying to use what's painted).

Could do this too but what CT and artefacts then?:

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Masters of Execution
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Verminlord Warpseer (330)
- General
Deathmaster (110)
- Artefact: Farskitter Cloak
Deathmaster (110)
Deathmaster (110)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
5 x Gutter Runners (100)
Vermintide (30)
*Warlord
Artefact

Total: 990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 42
Drops: 7
 

Lol, thats a lot of monkeys.

Also, I love the flavour of the first list with the whole Eshin triad.

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah, I like the idea of all tiny ninja powerlings running rampant...for at least 1 turn until they all die or run away.  I'd bring them in to focus fire and finish things off as much as possible.  Only way to run those guys.

[Garrac]

So, halfway thru on the rebasing process.

Still have some stuff left to rebase, and movememt trays to buy.

Clanrats on rounds are... weird. But stormvermin really were born for bigger bases.

Also, I have like 100-150ish more rats that need rebasing but now theyre not a priority since its enough with these fellas.

Edited January 11 by Garrac

[Lord Krungharr]

That's dedication!  I did that to a bunch of Dark Aelves and it was....tricky.  I ended up just using metal shears to cut the flat part of the old squares out and gluing that to rounds after shearing off a few feet.  Then they get a 'tactical' rock to stand on.

I'm gonna wait to build do more Skaven until the next tome in the summer this year.  Who knows what it may bring?!?!