Return slain models

[Fluttershy]

*** EDIT ***

BATTLETOME: FLESH-EATER COURTS Designers’ Commentary, March 2019

Q: Some abilities allow you to return a slain model to a unit. When you do so, does the slain model have to originally have come from the unit that it is returned to?

A: Yes.

👍

******

 

 

we've a discussion going in the FEC forum about returning slain models.

Spoiler

 

 

This isn't a FEC only thing, so perhaps someone could deliver some counterarguments, cause this thing is ******* up my mind.

There are a lot of abilities out there, bringing back slain models into play.

 

So let's start with the definition of slain models:

SLAIN MODELS

Once the number of wounds allocated to a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place a slain model to one side – it is removed from play.

(Core Rules AoS 2.0)

By definition each model fullfilling this chriteria is a slain model. No matter if it's a little peasant or a mighty dragon.

 

Definition of units (will come in handy):

UNITS

Models fight in units. A unit can have one or more models, but cannot include models that use different warscrolls. [..]

(Core Rules AoS 2.0)

 

 

EXAMPLE 1

For simplification let's focus on ghouls.

So every slain (ghoul) model goes right into our "slain-model-(ghoul)-pool", beside the board - removed from play.

 

When it comes to our HERO PHASE let's pick our Crypt Ghast Courtier and use his ability:

Muster Men-at-arms: In your hero phase, you can roll 6 dice for each friendly Crypt Ghast Courtier on the battlefield. If you do so, for each 2+, you can return 1 slain model to a friendly Crypt Ghouls unit that is within 10" of that Crypt Ghast Courtier. Slain models can be returned to more than one unit if you wish, but each successful dice roll can only be used to return a model to a single unit.

(FAQ July 2018)

 

It allows us to return (previously removed from play) slain models (back into play) and add them to a friendly Crypt Ghoul unit that is within 10".

 

This doesn't imply the slain model has to be from a specific (ghoul) unit, nor we have to "return" it to the unit it previosly belonged to. We return a slain model to a friendly Crypt Ghoul unit within 10" - returning to the battle, returning to the game, returning "into play". It shouldn't matter if the model has been slain in ghoul unit (a) or ghoul unit (b).

It still isn't adding new models to a unit - like ghoul patrol does "[..] and add that many models to the unit."

We're still limited to our "slain-model-(ghoul)-pool" and since AoS 2.0 hasn't any "you can't go over unit starting size" restrictions anymore, I think we should be able to return a slain ghoul to whatever ghoul unit within 10" we want to.

 

EXAMPLE 2

Let's guess we play with Nagash and 2 units of 10 Skeletons and a unit of 10 Ghosts. We loose 8 Skeletons from unit A and we're up to start our hero phase and use Nagash's ability:

Deathly Invocation:

At the start of your hero phase, pick up to 5 different friendly Summonable units on the battlefield. You can heal D3 wounds that have been allocated to each unit you picked (roll separately for each unit). If no wounds are currently allocated to a unit you picked, you may instead return a number of slain models to it that have a combined Wounds characteristic equal to or less than the roll of a D3.

We pick skeleton unit A, skeleton unit B and the unit ghosts C.

We roll a "3" for unit A, a "2" for unit B and a "3" for unit C .

There are no wounds allocated to each of our units, so we might return a number of slain models to unit A (3), unit B (2) and unit C (3).

At this point of the game there are 8 slain models (skeletons) standing beside the board. That allows us to return 3 of them into unit A and 2 into unit B. We can't return the left 3 slain models (skeletons) into unit C, because skeletons and ghost doesn't use the same warscroll (definition of units). 3 slain models (skeletons) remain slain beside the board.

We end up with unit A including 5 models (2 left + 3 returning slain models), unit B including 12 models (10 left + 2 returning slain models) and unit C including 10 models (10 left + 0 returning slain models).

 

 

Counter argumentation is highly apprechiated

[Fluttershy]

BATTLETOME: FLESH-EATER COURTS Designers’ Commentary, March 2019

Q: Some abilities allow you to return a slain model to a unit. When you do so, does the slain model have to originally have come from the unit that it is returned to?

A: Yes.

[Isotop]

Hi mate. Firstly I want to tell you that I appreciate you exerting such an effort in clarifying how a rule is supposed to work. Now to the counter argumentation:

I think the mistake you are making lies within this sentence:

(1) "If you do so, for each 2+, you can return 1 slain model to a friendly Crypt Ghouls unit that is within 10" of that Crypt Ghast Courtier."

and your interpretation of it, which is the following:

(2)

3 hours ago, Fluttershy said:

It allows us to return (previously removed from play) slain models (back into play) and add them to a friendly Crypt Ghoul unit that is within 10".

In my opinion you are quite changing the meaning of (1) by adding the "back into play" part. Secondly, you are adding an "and" between the returning of the slain model and the addition of the just mentioned model to a unit. In your mind, represented by (2), a model is first returned to the game/table in general and is then added to a unit. If this was the meaning of (1) your argument of "returning" slain models to units they did not belong to would make sense. But in my view (1) is not really supporting this interpretation of yours. It says that you "return 1 slain model to a [...] unit [...]". There is no step of returning the model to the game in general first. Instead, the model is directly returned to a unit (within 10" of the Courtier). At this point we  have to ask ourselves what "return" or "returning" means. The Cambridge Dictonary subdivides the meaning of "return" into a bunch of categories and I think the most suitable one in this case is "return (PUT BACK)". The CD´s definition of it is:

 "to send, take, give, put, etc. something back to where it came from:

The new TV broke so they returned it to the shop.

He returned two books he had borrowed from me in 2003.

She carefully returned the book to its place on the shelf."

 

(https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/returning)

 

I hope this quotation makes sense - I am no native English speaker and want to make sure we are on the same level of understanding/thinking what "return" means 😅. In my mind the really important part here is the fact that an object can only be returned to a place it allready has been in the past. If I add a slain Ghoul (who dates back to unit A) to unit B, I did not return the Ghoul to a unit. I did not make the sentence "1 slain model was returned to a friendly Crypt Ghouls unit" true and therefore did not use (1) as my tool of operation. I did fulfill (2), but as mentioned before, in my opinion (2) can not be deduced from (1).

 

I hope my argumentation is somewhat clear to everyone, most importantly for you, @Fluttershy. I would be glad to further discuss the topic with anyone wishing to participate. 

[EMMachine]

I would it see like @Isotop

The wording "return x slain models" was chosen instead of "add x models" so a unit can't get more models than it's starting strength and that models can only return to the unit they came from.

 

[Fluttershy]

I'm getting your point, I'm imagining it's RAI, too; but...

RAW there are abilities f.e. the ability Captured Soul Energy from the Spirit Torment clearly stating:

[..] Alternatively, instead of healing the unit you picked, if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit. Roll a D3; you can return any slain models to that unit that have a combined Wounds characteristic of less than or equal to the number you rolled. [..]

In abilities like f.e. Unbreaking Ranks: At the start of your hero phase, you can return 1 slain model to each Deathmarch unit that is within 9" of the battalion’s WIGHT KING. - the condition is slain model, it doesn't matter if a model of that unit has been slain.

AoS 2.0 doesn't have a rule "you can't go over unit starting size" anymore.

I think as long as the ability doesn't clearly state "if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit" you're allowed to return (to the battlefield ) a slain model from one unit into another, as long they are using the same warscroll (Core Rules Units).

[Fluttershy]

38 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The wording "return x slain models" was chosen instead of "add x models" so a unit can't get more models than it's starting strength and that models can only return to the unit they came from.

 

but units can go over starting size and there is an enormous difference between returning slain models and adding (new) models.

[EMMachine]

8 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

I'm getting your point, I'm imagining it's RAI, too; but...

RAW there are abilities f.e. the ability Captured Soul Energy from the Spirit Torment clearly stating:

[..] Alternatively, instead of healing the unit you picked, if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit. Roll a D3; you can return any slain models to that unit that have a combined Wounds characteristic of less than or equal to the number you rolled. [..]

In abilities like f.e. Unbreaking Ranks: At the start of your hero phase, you can return 1 slain model to each Deathmarch unit that is within 9" of the battalion’s WIGHT KING. - the condition is slain model, it doesn't matter if a model of that unit has been slain.

AoS 2.0 doesn't have a rule "you can't go over unit starting size" anymore.

I think as long as the ability doesn't clearly state "if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit" you're allowed to return (to the battlefield ) a slain model from one unit into another, as long they are using the same warscroll (Core Rules Units).

The problem here is, that the Spirit Torment has been written after Rulebook 2.0 . Every other case was written before, and GW is quite bad most of the time in case of updating the wording of multiple hundred warscrolls when requirements are changed with the rules.

If a unit could get more models than they had started with, with the wording "return x slain models". Why do we have this point in the Flesh Eater Courts FAQ (July 2018), the new edition was released in June 2018

Quote

Q: Most Flesh-eater Courts abilities only allow you to return slain models to a unit. However, this restriction does not apply to the Drawn to Battle ability of the Ghoul Patrol warscroll battalion. Can I use the ability to make a unit above its starting strength?

A: Yes

This is a special case with the Ghoul Patrol.

[Kramer]

53 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

I'm getting your point, I'm imagining it's RAI, too; but...

RAW there are abilities f.e. the ability Captured Soul Energy from the Spirit Torment clearly stating:

[..] Alternatively, instead of healing the unit you picked, if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit. Roll a D3; you can return any slain models to that unit that have a combined Wounds characteristic of less than or equal to the number you rolled. [..]

In abilities like f.e. Unbreaking Ranks: At the start of your hero phase, you can return 1 slain model to each Deathmarch unit that is within 9" of the battalion’s WIGHT KING. - the condition is slain model, it doesn't matter if a model of that unit has been slain.

AoS 2.0 doesn't have a rule "you can't go over unit starting size" anymore.

I think as long as the ability doesn't clearly state "if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit" you're allowed to return (to the battlefield ) a slain model from one unit into another, as long they are using the same warscroll (Core Rules Units).

That's a false argument. (has a more technical term but forgot it, haha). The argument that another rule is phrased differently is irrelevant to judging other rules*. Example, The Skaven Warlords ability is very close to the phrasing of the Skritch Spiteclaw's ability. But that slight difference means it works different. The only difference is the word 'wholly'  even though it has the same title. 

So in this case @Isotop said it best in my mind: 

2 hours ago, Isotop said:

If I add a slain Ghoul (who dates back to unit A) to unit B, I did not return the Ghoul to a unit. I did not make the sentence "1 slain model was returned to a friendly Crypt Ghouls unit" true and therefore did not use (1) as my tool of operation. I did fulfill (2), but as mentioned before, in my opinion (2) can not be deduced from (1).

You don't fulfil the full phrasing of this ability. Therefore the statement is false, and not usable. 

*Should help I know, but phrasing is still not absolute. GW uses different phrases for same effects. 

[XReN]

Really exited about this question

15 hours ago, EMMachine said:

The problem here is, that the Spirit Torment has been written after Rulebook 2.0 . Every other case was written before, and GW is quite bad most of the time in case of updating the wording of multiple hundred warscrolls when requirements are changed with the rules.

Actually all FEC abilites that we talk about has been written after AoS2 as well

[Fluttershy]

I'm still confused by the lovely return slain models abilities, (for me) our new book hasn't finally clarified "return slain models" at all.

 

What we've got so far:

- Units can go over starting size, there are no restrictions in AoS 2

f.e. the Zombie Ability The Newly Dead - wich "[..] add a Zombie to this unit."

 

- There are Abilities that clearly state how slain models are returned to a unit.

f.e. the Spirit Torments Ability Captured Soul Energy - "[..] pick a friendly [..] unit [..]" "[..] the unit you picked, if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit.[..]"

 

- There are lots of (inaccurate looking) Abilities that return slain models to a unit.

f.e. the Grand Host of Nagash Gravesites Ability Invigorating Aura - "[..] you may return a number of slain models to it that have a combined
Wounds characteristic equal to or less than the roll of a D3."

f.e. the Flesh-Eater Courts Chalice Of Ushoran Ability Soul Stealer - "[..] return 1 slain model to 1 Flesh-Eater Courts unit [..]"

the Crypt Ghast Courtier Ability Muster Serfs

and so on..

 

 

- The FEC definition of  Muster Abilities state "[..] that allow you to return slain models to a unit.[..]"

als long as it doesn't state "[..] that allow you to return slain models to their unit.[..]" or "[..] if models from that unit have been slain, you can return them to the unit.[..]", I don't see any restrictions in returning a slain model to "another" unit.

All models have to use the same Warscroll. (Core Rules, Page 1, Units) - f.e. you can't return a slain Stormcast Eternal to a unit Crypt Ghouls

 

 

My opinion:

I see both options. I think the restricted one has fewer/weaker arguments. For me, in AoS it's all about life and death, so I'm assuming the wording "return" describes primarily the state of being alive or dead / slain. It matters the most if a model is alive or slain. Therefore a return of a slain model primarily describes that change of it's state - for me.

Like @Isotop already mentioned, the definition of "return" is quite complex. Wish it would be more unique.

 

Best regards & keep track of slain models

 

 

[JackStreicher]

Erm... it says „return“. You cannot RETURN anything that hasn‘t been there before. So the starting size is the limit.

if the wording was „add“ that would enable the increase of models beyond starting size

definition:  to come or go back to a previousplace

 

You could argue that you can return as many models as have been slain without restricting it to a unit so you could „swap“ models from unit to unit.

example:

you have two units: 1x 10 ghouls (unit A), 1x 20 Ghuls (unit B).

15 Models of B die but now you „return“  11 models to unit A which hasn‘t had any casualties. You can now return those 11 models and unit A is beyond its starting size (21/10 models).

same scenario but now you could return 20 models to unit A. This does not work like that since there are only 15 „slain“ models. So you only return 15 models to unit A.

 

edit: hoops, I see that others came to the same conclusion. Nvm

 

 

[SwampHeart]

On 2/21/2019 at 2:32 AM, Fluttershy said:

I'm still confused by the lovely return slain models abilities, (for me) our new book hasn't finally clarified "return slain models" at all.

 

May I ask - and this isn't intended to be snarky - but why is it that you think you've discovered this particular ruling when no one else attempts this at all? Do you think you're just the only one to find this sort of Easter egg? I feel like if it was intended to be played the way you suggest then that would be the common state of play. But it isn't - you don't see LoN players attempting to add skeletons from one unit to another or things like that. I'm not saying you shouldn't question the status quo but it seems like top end players would have already been playing this way if it were the proper interpretation. 

[TheMuphinMan]

Going by loose interpretation of "return",  that slain models don't have to belong to the unit they are returning to, one could argue that  because it doesn't say "friendly slain models" you could steal opponent's slain models in a mirror matchup. 

That conclusion alone should be enough to say return means the stricter interpretation, to the original unit.