Bosmer Nightblade Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I know Ben Curry and co visit here, and know that they playtest some of GW's editing (particularly the general's handbook), so could someone please feed this back to GW if they haven't already? The synergy between app, book, and sometimes errata can often be inconsistent. For example: Tzeentch Arcanites The silver tower units are in the app under Tzeentch Arcanites, but not in the general's handbook. The Tzeentch sorcerer lord and lord on disc are both in the app and the general's handbook under Arcanites, but neither has the Arcanites keyword. Daemons of Chaos This faction is included in the app, the grand alliance, and the general's handbook with the same four units. But the grand alliance doesn't include their battalions, whereas the app does. But the general's handbook includes these in the compendium. Allegiances The new faq for the general's handbook tells us that units inherit the allegiance of the title of the warscroll battalion. So, does a "Daemons of Khorne" batallion have the 'Daemons of Khorne' keyword, the 'daemons' keyword, the 'khorne' keyword, or the latter two? If you then take other khorne daemons, is your army no longer of one faction because nothing else in the unit warscrolls says "daemons of khorne" like it would for, say, Everchosen, which is the same keyword across batallion and unit scrolls. What about the generals handbook unit allegiance entries, which demands "khorne daemons" allegiance (again not a combination of words in succession seen anywhere)? Do you invalidate your army then by taking a "daemons of khorne" batallion? Or can we assume all of the above applies to eachother, and therefore a "daemons of khorne" batallion is both "khorne" allegiance, as well as "daemons" allegiance? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bosmer Nightblade said: Tzeentch Arcanites The silver tower units are in the app under Tzeentch Arcanites, but not in the general's handbook. The Tzeentch sorcerer lord and lord on disc are both in the app and the general's handbook under Arcanites, but neither has the Arcanites keyword. They didn't have that stuff ready in time. The whole arcanites keyword is still in progress and is largely irrelevant until a book comes out. Quote Daemons of Chaos This faction is included in the app, the grand alliance, and the general's handbook with the same four units. But the grand alliance doesn't include their battalions, whereas the app does. But the general's handbook includes these in the compendium. Because those battalions came from a different book and the GHB is just giving points? Quote Allegiances The new faq for the general's handbook tells us that units inherit the allegiance of the title of the warscroll battalion. So, does a "Daemons of Khorne" batallion have the 'Daemons of Khorne' keyword, the 'daemons' keyword, the 'khorne' keyword, or the latter two? If you then take other khorne daemons, is your army no longer of one faction because nothing else in the unit warscrolls says "daemons of khorne" like it would for, say, Everchosen, which is the same keyword across batallion and unit scrolls. What about the generals handbook unit allegiance entries, which demands "khorne daemons" allegiance (again not a combination of words in succession seen anywhere)? Do you invalidate your army then by taking a "daemons of khorne" batallion? Or can we assume all of the above applies to eachother, and therefore a "daemons of khorne" batallion is both "khorne" allegiance, as well as "daemons" allegiance? This an over reading of the rules. There are problems, but I don't think these are the best ones to highlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosmer Nightblade Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 59 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: This an over reading of the rules. There are problems, but I don't think these are the best ones to highlight. Not at all. I'm going to the Warhammer World AoS this September and am taking Chaos. I need to know whether what I am taking is considered legal, as the event is using matched play. As for the best examples, I'm not really interested in that. Feel free to add your own. My interest is purely chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I think the rule of common sense would apply here. The purpose of the faq about warscroll alliegences is for those battalions that contain mixed forces like the one with sylvaneth and Stormcast. This does not apply to Khorne deamons. Common sense would suggest that any army containing deamons that are obviously Khorne would be considered to fit into the deamons of Khorne faction ( or Khorne deamons). If you took a soul grinder, however, you would lose the option to take the Khorne specific battle line units. I agree that it is not the clearest, but I think it is easy to see the intent. The deamons of chaos warscroll battalions are in the main section of the pitched battle profiles, they are just split between the four factions. So the deamons of Khorne section has the blood host of Khorne battalion for example. The Tzeentch Arcanites is a bit a of a mess, but it seems they are still being worked on. if you have questions about using a particular army list in a warhammer world tournament, your best bet would be to email them directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 9 minutes ago, Chikout said: I think the rule of common sense would apply here. The purpose of the faq about warscroll alliegences is for those battalions that contain mixed forces like the one with sylvaneth and Stormcast. This does not apply to Khorne deamons. Common sense would suggest that any army containing deamons that are obviously Khorne would be considered to fit into the deamons of Khorne faction ( or Khorne deamons). If you took a soul grinder, however, you would lose the option to take the Khorne specific battle line units. I agree that it is not the clearest, but I think it is easy to see the intent. The deamons of chaos warscroll battalions are in the main section of the pitched battle profiles, they are just split between the four factions. So the deamons of Khorne section has the blood host of Khorne battalion for example. The Tzeentch Arcanites is a bit a of a mess, but it seems they are still being worked on. if you have questions about using a particular army list in a warhammer world tournament, your best bet would be to email them directly. Wait what? Surely it works the same as how all of slaves to darkness works, you pick the unit an just add the keyword you want, Khorne nurgle etc. Why should the soul grinder work any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrAiKo Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Im particularly interested to see what happens with beastmen coming up: we have a Tzaangor which is chaos/tzeentch/gor (not mortal) but also an arcanite. What happens for example if they release Khorngors? Will they get bloodbound keyword? And hopefully any Brayherd allegiance will look for the keyword Gor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 18 hours ago, Bosmer Nightblade said: What about the generals handbook unit allegiance entries, which demands "khorne daemons" allegiance (again not a combination of words in succession seen anywhere)? Do you invalidate your army then by taking a "daemons of khorne" batallion? Or can we assume all of the above applies to each other, and therefore a "daemons of khorne" batallion is both "khorne" allegiance, as well as "daemons" allegiance? Wait what, you are worried that if Daemons of Khorne is written differently to Khorne Daemons it won't be the same allegiance?! A Khorne Daemon isn't Daemons allegiance, they are two separate things. The Daemons section is just there because those units either ARE or have the CHOICE to be 'undivided' There are two types of Chaos in the WH world, divided and undivided. Divided means you have pledged your soul to one of the Chaos gods, undivided means you haven't. 18 hours ago, Bosmer Nightblade said: Daemons of Chaos This faction is included in the app, the grand alliance, and the general's handbook with the same four units. But the grand alliance doesn't include their battalions, whereas the app does. But the general's handbook includes these in the compendium. The Grand Alliance books don't include the compendium formations because they are legacy. These are available in the compendiums which are free PDF's on the GW website As far as the Tzeentch stuff goes , here you go If you only need some clarification for your Warlords list, I would suggest emailing it through to the organisers and they can tell you if its legal or not. You still have about 8 weeks so plenty of time. The thing is though, I can almost guarantee there will be more updates through by September 10th with faction specific allegiance abilities for all the existing factions, so its a bit soon to be deciding on final lists yet. And until then, you only have the Chaos allegiance traits to use anyway so that makes things simple. I would echo Daedulus81 , if this is your main problem with AOS at the moment then you are laughing, you are set my friend, and very lucky, as these are all really non issues, and if the standard of GW writing being bad is of a surprise to you, then buckle up your seat buddy and prepare for the ride, you are in for a treat! And lastly, I don't think Ben has Jervis on speed dial, but I could be wrong =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosmer Nightblade Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 11 hours ago, Chikout said: The deamons of chaos warscroll battalions are in the main section of the pitched battle profiles, they are just split between the four factions. So the deamons of Khorne section has the blood host of Khorne battalion for example Nope; "Daemons of Chaos" is also a faction in the grand alliance book (p184), and the general's handbook (p131). It's also in the app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosmer Nightblade Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 6 hours ago, James McPherson said: Another inconsistency! The arcanite units in your example are given 'equivalent' substitute rules to use. In the app however, they have their very own rules and keywords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I know that deamons of chaos has its own section in the book. The battalions however are god specific and so are better suited to each individual god's faction. It is an inconsistency true, but it doesn't effect gameplay. Regarding the Arcanite units. They have rules in the app but not points. There are currently no official points for Arcanite units (as opposed to characters) If you wish to play open play you can use the rules from the app. If you wish to play points you have to use the proxy rules. A new Arcanites book is on the way by all accounts. It should give points and updated rules then. If you shared the kind of army you want to use in September it would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 51 minutes ago, Bosmer Nightblade said: Nope; "Daemons of Chaos" is also a faction in the grand alliance book (p184), and the general's handbook (p131). It's also in the app. It doesn't matter if it's a fraction. The units specifically say add these key words. The generals handbook allows you to mix any mortal chaos units into the bloodbound or rotbringers etc as long as they contain the specific god key word. So I can take skullcrushers as core and still slot in chaos warriors or chaos knights as long as they're khorne, or blightkings as long as the slaves to darkness are keyworded nurgle. I can make a daemons of khorne list with a daemon Prince, a soul grinder, bloodletters and a chaos lord on daemonic mount of khorne if I want, as they all contain the keywords daemon, Khorne and chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosmer Nightblade Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 So are we back around to where I started now? I started this thread simply to point out that there were inconsistencies between app, alliance books and generals handbook. The initial response to that was "no you're mistaken! And here's why" (because no response to a thread on the internet can ever be 'yeah good point'), but most of those responses were misunderstsndings of rules/writing by other people, which I've pointed out, only for the response in some cases to be "but what's your army??", or other slightly irrelevant questions. Now, ladies and gentlemen, this just takes us back to my OP. And the army thing was just an elaboration as to why I was pointing this out. It's okay, you really aren't obliged to pick holes. I think one thing we did get out of this thread was that yes indeed there is some bad writing. That's all I want GW to make a bit more effort on, and as gw does not have a feedback mechanism, but there are people here who do work alongside gw from time to time, and on these products, I thought this was the best way to highlight the issues. I don't hate gw. I like aos and think it's a good game. Yes there are probably some even better examples of bad editing. The point of this was to highlight some. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Fair enough. Though it is editing that is the problem, not writing. I suspect they don't have nearly enough editors for the amount of content they produce these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosmer Nightblade Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 57 minutes ago, Chikout said: Fair enough. Though it is editing that is the problem, not writing. I suspect they don't have nearly enough editors for the amount of content they produce these days. Good point. I do mean editing. I'll go and change the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjgreenway Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 38 minutes ago, Bosmer Nightblade said: Good point. I do mean editing. I'll go and change the OP Ah, the irony. sorry, i couldn't resist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Bosmer Nightblade said: So are we back around to where I started now? I started this thread simply to point out that there were inconsistencies between app, alliance books and generals handbook. The initial response to that was "no you're mistaken! And here's why" (because no response to a thread on the internet can ever be 'yeah good point') That wasn't the intent of my post. I recognize there are issues, but I didn't think these particular ones would have been good to prop up as the poster child of issues. There are legitimate reasons for the differences in many cases. We may not like them, but there they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Meads Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 On 7/30/2016 at 0:51 PM, Bosmer Nightblade said: n often be inconsistent. For example: Tzeentch Arcanites The silver tower units are in the app under Tzeentch Arcanites, but not in the general's handbook. The Tzeentch sorcerer lord and lord on disc are both in the app and the general's handbook under Arcanites, but neither has the Arcanites keyword. I'm sure it'll be updated and become consistent when they're a fully fledged release. Play it as it's written down at the moment. On 7/30/2016 at 0:51 PM, Bosmer Nightblade said: Daemons of Chaos This faction is included in the app, the grand alliance, and the general's handbook with the same four units. But the grand alliance doesn't include their battalions, whereas the app does. But the general's handbook includes these in the compendium. Just gives the points for the battalion in the GHB. Would it have been good to have them in the Alliance book, of course, but I'm ghuessing they were running out of space. On 7/30/2016 at 0:51 PM, Bosmer Nightblade said: Allegiances The new faq for the general's handbook tells us that units inherit the allegiance of the title of the warscroll battalion. So, does a "Daemons of Khorne" batallion have the 'Daemons of Khorne' keyword, the 'daemons' keyword, the 'khorne' keyword, or the latter two? If you then take other khorne daemons, is your army no longer of one faction because nothing else in the unit warscrolls says "daemons of khorne" like it would for, say, Everchosen, which is the same keyword across batallion and unit scrolls. What about the generals handbook unit allegiance entries, which demands "khorne daemons" allegiance (again not a combination of words in succession seen anywhere)? Do you invalidate your army then by taking a "daemons of khorne" batallion? Or can we assume all of the above applies to eachother, and therefore a "daemons of khorne" batallion is both "khorne" allegiance, as well as "daemons" allegiance? ? If the Keywords needed are in the keywords for the warscroll then they'll count. If they're missing one, they don't count - I've seen this confusion before but I'm not sure where that's coming from. So Archaon would count as a DAEMON, HERO, KHORNE if you wanted him to, as he has those keywords - although you wouldn't automatically think he would because he's not in the limited faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 It's true that there's some inconsistencies but the vast majority of examples are the edge case units, things that are either old retired content, or semi official content like the Arcanites which are likely to be a case for a future release. One key point on battallions, I'm sure the ones without a points cost are a deliberate ommision because they weren't suitable for matched play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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