Age of Sigmar and New Players

[Overread]

So the new FAQ has sparked some debate on what tactics are and aren't "suitable" within the game and its kind of spiraled in a few other places out of control into talking not about the game and its mechanics but talking about new players and how it can create a bad experience for them. 

 

So I figured instead of trying to steer those threads into that new topic area it would be better to split off and have a proper focused chat about new players and what we as gamers can do for them both online and in the real world at our local clubs and shops where we game. A way to share stories of bad experiences to learn lessons; to share ideas and concepts that we've tried out and propose new ways for them to get involved and encourage new people to stay and become part of the hobby and club scene. 

A chance to have some positive discussion that focuses on what we can do rather than on the bad things we've seen or had done to us. And a way to share some ideas that might help revitalise the local scene and get new people through the door and involved. 

[amysrevenge]

A lot of it depends on the local playstyle, and managing expectations.

In my own area(s), it's easy to explain that there are two different game styles going on, and to not mix them up.  Club Games, and Tournament Games.  I use "Tournament" and "Club" as general descriptors - you can have a "Tournament" game at the club, and you can have a "Club" game at a tournament.  It's a shorthand.

Club Games are home to quirky experimental lists (or older non-battletome armies lol), relaxed attitudes (such as do-overs for obvious mistakes), proxies and unpainted models, having a laugh, chatting about movies and TV shows, playing to win but also playing to make fun stuff happen on the table.  Tournament Games are... a different kind of fun, with iron-hard adherence to all rules, mandatory painting, zero mercy or stepping off the gas, and a higher level of intensity and concentration.  These aren't discrete and separate, all games are a combination of both.  But these are sort of typical/representative of types of games.

Some players are in Tournament Game mode all the time. These players aren't usually set up with new players.  Some people are in Club Game mode all the time - those of us who over-achieve if we ever hit the top third in an event (ie. me!).  We excel at showing new players the ropes. I have quite a few former protégés who have now far surpassed me in playing Tournament Games.  Some players can switch modes, depending on context.  I try to, and can sometimes manage a pretty good Tournament Game if pressed, but can rarely string together 3-5 in a row hahaha.

New players shouldn't see Tournament Games for a while, except as bystanders.  Unless they want to, of course, but it's not recommended. 

Based on reports on this forum, some regions/stores really only have Tournament Games in them - everyone is playing in that mindset pretty much all the time.  This would be a harsh environment to learn the game in, and I fear that some players could be weeded out prematurely by the level of competition.

[RuneBrush]

+++MOD HAT+++

Preemptive warning all, please keep this friendly - just because somebodies opinion differs to your own doesn't make it wrong.

[Overread]

I think its important to note that many tactical/mechanic/gameplay/list building/model stat discussion often gravitate toward tournament level play as that's generally where the game should be balanced and built around as that is when the game is being played properly by those who know what they are doing. So it often presents the idea that everyone only ever thinks at tourney level in such chats rather than beginners and likely gives a false representation of actual real world play at their clubs. 

 

 

But lets leave that be. I do agree that beginners need to be introduced to the game in a progressive manner rather than throwing them in at the deep end and seeing if they swim or drown against better players and armies. That basic concept is very sound and I doubt many, if any, here would argue against that premise. However I want to go a bit more into detail and focus on what we consider beginner level games and how we can work to better provide them. This isn't just in terms of "ok take a weaker list" or "well just play badly/roll poor/lose intentionally". Those are simplistic concepts but don't really help the new player. Indeed losing matches to them by playing poorly can be ok once or twice, but overall all it does is show them poor play choices from you; whilst rewarding their own weaker tactics by playing into them. Thus means when that player then tries to up their game their tactics that once worked, quickly start to fail once they are playing someone who isn't intentionally playing badly against them. 

 

So here are a few ideas/thoughts of my own

1) Small point games to teach basic gameplay mechanics. This is purely about getting them used to the order of play; rolling dice, moving things around etc... Sure the games won't be balanced at, say 500 points or 750 or so; however these aren't about winning or being competitive but about learning the mechanics.  Terrain should be simple and likely sparse so that starting out they are dealing mostly with just moving and using their models; adding in a bit of dangerous terrain then a building with different platforms and levels; adding in an impassable cliff and, if one wants, even going as far as to then put down terrain with specific rules and properties. 

This is all about introducing them in a step by step process to the game. Small points keeps it easier for them to see what is going on and remember what the have and haven't used and makes the games a lot faster to play. Remembering that at the start they will be slower anyway. 

2) Record keeping and info finding. Alongside step one I'd say the other good thing to teach is how they can use the rule book, battletome, warscrolls, army list and all that. For beginners this can seem quite confusing in how to find info; when to look it up; getting over the embarrassment that they are having to constantly check (which can make people rush and make mistakes or concede to a rule challenge without actually finding out who is the right). Giving them time, encouraging them to look things up and have them find where info is. 

Eg you might say "ok this is dangerous terrain, I'm not telling you what it does, but I  want you to look it up". 

You can also introduce ideas such as how to use sticky notes or markers in the book; or good ideas to write down upgrades or commonly used abilities on the army list for their own reference etc... 

So alongside teaching them the basic mechanics of the game you're also teaching them how to find information for themselves; that its ok to take time to do that; how to manage their own information and how to keep track of the paperwork side of the game. This can be a big help since it helps people interact with and overcome what can be seen as the "boring" side of playing the game. It can also give them a lot of tools and understanding which helps them speed up their gameplay; skills that when taken into 1000 and 2000 point games really come into their own. It's not about teaching them to rush the game ,but about helping them get up to a comfortable speed.

3) Challenge them. When people think of beginners a lot start to think about how to make the game easier for them; toning down lists; playing worse; losing on purpose etc... Ergo giving them the win to give them a confidence boost. There's nothing bad in that in moderation; but as its often touted as the only advice quickly given I think its poor to have that mindset in general. What you rather want to do - once they've got past the basics of how to play and how to find information; is start to properly challenge them. 

This isn't about beating them into the ground game after game until they "git gud". Instead its about giving them a challenge, giving them a problem and guiding them through how to deal with the problem in their games. If they can start to see the game as puzzles and as questions to be answered they can better start to work out how they can answer those issues and put to use the tools they've got. 

It's also a good time to start to teach them alternative thinking. For example you might put down a very powerful character unit, one that is near impossible for them to beat with their current army. See how they react to that character in the game and give feedback through the game. Don't give them the answer(s), but let them puzzle it out first. See how they react and even play it out and see them lose. Show them that perhaps instead of going to attack its better to run to grab the two objectives on the other side of the table and instead of win by dominance they win by objectives. Show them that they can instead tangle that power unit up with some weaker units of their own for a few turns so that it cna't threaten their own powerful unit. Or how they can use spells and ranged weapons to harass it etc...

 

4) Probably the most important thing - talk to them and ask them questions. 

Wait what they are the ones learning, surely they should be asking the questions. Yep they should be, but you've also got to ask them questions. Specifically what they are thinking. Both before they undertake an action and after. Before they make a choice they are telling you what is making them make the choice that they are making; what thought process they are using that leads them to that course of action. This can be key in showing you where they are missing things or where they haven't fully understood something. It also gives you an idea of what matters they are taking into account and what they might be leaving out. 

After they undertake an action its showing you how they review their own choices. This is just as important as it might show that they lack confidence (urgh well I lost cause I'm bad or stupid); or that they don't actually know how to self-learn and self critique their own actions or how to read what just happened in a positive light. 

Both together lets you see how the new player is thinking. This gives you a wealth of information on how you can help them. A beginner series of games shouldn't be you doing all the talking; it should be a constant stream of conversation between both players with each informing the other of different things. Questions going from both sides, answers from both sides and alongside that all the general chit chatter of good sportsmanship and enjoying the game. 

[hughwyeth]

I was going to start a new thread for this, but thought it would be better mentioned here (and worried the dregs of the net would appear as they usually do when anything on this topic is mentioned):

I thought this article on Warhammer community was so positive:

Starting Warhammer Age of Sigmar, with Teri Litorco

I know that Stormcast having female characters made them more interesting to me and helped me decide to build an SCE force using the Soul Wars box at the start. I'm not the type to demand full representation in everything, but I've definitely noticed an increase in women playing Warhammer and wondered if anyone else had, or if any female players on these forums had any input on GW's move into greater representation of women (in AoS at least). 

I also just finished listening to the Pro Painted podcast and the host mentions his partner getting into AoS and the excessive number of documents you need to consult to play an up to date matched play game- the rules, the general's handbook, malign sorcery, your force's battletome, your force's battletome's faq, the rules faq, the matched play faq and the malign sorcery faq. It really is a ridiculous number of sources of rules.

I'm a casual player generally and don't field competitive forces, so generally FAQs aren't much concern for me, but I have entered a tournament previously, but the idea of entering a tournament again and having to know all these rules seems a bit overwhelming.

 

[Dead Scribe]

Good topic.  I think a couple posters above nailed it.  It will depend on your area.

In my area, the only games we play are tournament games or tournament prep games.  Therefore every game we play is with as highly optimized lists as possible.  New players that want to get into the game are told from the get-go what to expect, and we do our best to make sure they aren't buying models that don't perform so that they don't feel cheated.  New players are also warned ahead of time that the game changes and that the models they have right now may not be viable in a year and that they'll have to cycle in new models to keep up with whats highly optimized.

There are a couple of narrative gamers in our store, but they dont play games at the store.

[Overread]

@Dead Scribe out of interest how do you find the up-take of new members at your club? In my experience strong competitive environments don't often foster a good environment for beginners. Not out of any meanness from those playing nor unfriendliness; but simply because they are often so set in their ways that its harder for them to know how to deal with newbies - esp if the new person is on their own (its different if you get a bunch of new people all at once as they can often form their own sub-group). 

[Dead Scribe]

I find that in our area that the bulk of new players joining are also interested in competitive tournament gaming.  The ones that aren't, I'm not really sure where they go.  I only play at our store and travel around at tournaments, the only people that are ever playing at the store are playing tournament-level games.  The people that don't play tournament-level games aren't visible to me or to the public in general.  I would assume those players are finding the players that play casually.

I would say that we have a healthy population overall of players.  40k is more popular by a lot but we have a pretty good number of AOS tournament players (around twenty at our last league) and the new edition brought us six more new players interested in traveling to Adepticon next year and maybe even the Las Vegas Open.  

[Overread]

@Dead Scribe it sounds like you're in a hotbed area perhaps where there are several clubs/stores within a short distance of each other. Ergo your club is focusing on the competitive and the non-competitive or newer who don't want to get in at that level are being soaked up by another local group(s)? 

[Dead Scribe]

Could be.  There are only a couple of stores in my region though and both are pretty much only tournament players.  None of our message boards or facebooks have anything that would indicate otherwise either, but of course that doesn't mean that they don't have their own thing thats just not in the public eye.

[dmorley21]

So, I qualify as a new player. I have yet to play a game of AoS, or even buy an AoS model.

I got into WHFB 6th Edition when I was in middle school. Had a blast with some friends. Only ever played one event, but had a lot of fun with it. We played some 7th and 8th Edition but it kind of fizzled out for us.

In the past few years, some of my buddies from back then and I have been getting together and playing 8th Edition rules. We really started to homebrew stuff so that the game was quite different, but now we're looking to get into AoS.

I don't have accessible clubs near me that play AoS, and my buddies live all over so we only get together a couple times a year.

However, if I were to go to a club, I'd be most interested in learning about builds and play styles of different armies. That's probably the next stop after understanding the mechanics of the game. It's an expensive hobby, and while it's important to choose an army you like the look of, I also want to choose an army that will be a lot of fun for me to play and that can have good games.

[Praecautus]

I have had experience bringing on 4 or 5 people now, so me have stuck with AoS and others have not as the prefer 40k. 

The intro games I do are open play or bring some stuff, but maybe with an approximate point value Eg 1k. we avoid the scenary rules. I bring a mix of units that do different things to demonstrate different affects.

We would focus on core rules and warscroll rules only, everything else are best added in later games.

I will also take them through relevant books and explain concepts e.g. Army building, I also stay in contact and use our club Facebook to answer questions or have PM conversations. I am pleased to say 4 of the 5 have armies and 3 are regular AoS now.