AOS 2.0: Legions of Nagash General Discussion

[swarmofseals]

Hi all,

I've been a bit frustrated by all of the Legions of Nagash discussion being split among four different threads with no clear place for general thoughts and questions that apply to our faction but not exclusively to one of the sub-legions. I messaged a mod a couple of days ago for permission to make this thread, but I haven't gotten any response. I hope that it's OK.

Just for reference, here are links to the four Legion specific threads and a link to the old Let's Chat: Legions of Nagash thread:

Grand Host of Nagash: 

Legion of Sacrament:

Legion of Blood:

 

 

Legion of Night:

 

 

Let's Chat: Legions of Nagash:

 

 

 

[Oogje]

I agree and hopefully we can get some more generalized discussioned in this thread and some more build/meta specifics in the other threads. I already posted this in the GHON one, but I'd like to hear some other perspectives!

What is core for a death list?

To paraphrase from the GHON thread; in a 1v1, 1 person will benefit from going long and 1 person will benefit from a shorter game.

My idea on what is powerfull in death is pretty basic: Hordes & Magic. A very good example of this is  VDM & summonable units, with the biggest one being the recently added Grimghast Reapers.

1. So is a necro core? Or only if you run Arkhan/Nagash to copy VDM?
2. How much is fullfilling a battleline role worth? Should you always pump the maximum amount of Skittles? or is 40/5/5 (skellies/wolf/wolf) enough?
3. What the hell should you ALWAYS be running in any Legions of Nagash set up?

 

Did some random fiddling and don't want to delete my previous thoughts ?

Vhordrai and Nagash is 800+480=1280 points, with 720 points remaining you can't even fit a decent amount of hordes in the list which nullifies the best command ability of Nagash. Let alone enough necro's (=Vanhel's Danse Macabre) and summonable hordes and battlelines!  VDM and Arkhan is a good combo and Arkhan+Vhordrai (320+480=800) 1200 points lefts..

Necro, 40/5/5 Skellies/wolf/wolf, 30 Grimghasts (110+280+60+60+360)=870 OR Necro, 40/40/5 Skellies/Skellies/wolf, 30 Grimghasts (110+280+280+60+360)=1090

So enough wiggle room for endless spells, another hero, additonal command points etc.

[swarmofseals]

@Oogje I think that this is a really interesting set of questions. For me, I think basically all of my lists will include the following core:

 

Necromancer

40 Skeleton Warriors

5 Dire Wolves

30 Grimghast Reapers

 

I think a Necromancer is too valuable not to take. Vanhel's is an incredibly potent spell, and I think just about every legions list is going to want access to at least one Deathmages spell if not two. Add in the fact that it's relatively difficult to kill for a 5 wound hero, can stick with your skellies to give them +1 to hit and provides Deathly Invocation for two units and you've got yourself an incredible package.

It's hard to imagine leaving home without a block of skeletons as well. Their defensive efficiency is mediocre compared to Dire Wolves and Chainrasps but it's still fine, and they pack a great offensive punch against anything that doesn't have very heavy armor. 

I doubt I'd leave out Dire Wolves even if I was going to take three big blocks of troops to fill out my battleline (which isn't a bad idea but is certainly expensive). They do so much for their extremely cheap points cost. They can take a bit of damage and are relatively fast in an army where speed is a weakness. With the FAQ clarifying the rules for piling in, flanking is even more of a thing now. 

And last but certainly not least we have the Grimghast Reapers, who are very good on offense and also respectable on defense. Skeletons are more efficient on offense against light, non-rendy troops while these guys are more efficient against heavy troops with rend. The fact that they are decently quick and fly rounds out an excellent package. 

 

[Jai]

On 7/24/2018 at 6:50 PM, Oogje said:

My idea on what is powerfull in death is pretty basic: Hordes & Magic. A very good example of this is  VDM & summonable units, with the biggest one being the recently added Grimghast Reapers.

1. So is a necro core? Or only if you run Arkhan/Nagash to copy VDM?
2. How much is fullfilling a battleline role worth? Should you always pump the maximum amount of Skittles? or is 40/5/5 (skellies/wolf/wolf) enough?
3. What the hell should you ALWAYS be running in any Legions of Nagash set up?

 

Necro, 40/5/5 Skellies/wolf/wolf, 30 Grimghasts (110+280+60+60+360)=870 OR Necro, 40/40/5 Skellies/Skellies/wolf, 30 Grimghasts (110+280+280+60+360)=1090

Necromancer is definitely core in any kind of remotely viable LoN army - I'm excluding fringe GHoN Morghast/Wolf builds and Blood Knight/Wolf all-ins - and I would even venture to say that he's so core that he shouldn't even be on this list! In fact, for bookkeeping purposes, most of my lists these days start at a clean 900 points:

Vampire Lord
40 Skittles
5 Wolves
5 Wolves
30 GGRs

which has the marginal benefit of being an easier-to-remember number. in a standard 2000 point list, a necro is even exactly 10% of the points you have left over! ?

Back on topic though. Vamp Lord is just a fantastic piece all round, with his mobility, spellcasting ability (super relevant in certain battleplans!), resilience to chip damage, and reasonable hero sniping potential. +1A is also a nuts ability, as anyone can tell you, and its power is even more amplified in Death with now 2 great horde units to throw it on. It's here and VDM where you see the multiplicative effect of buff stacking most clearly.

The VDM cast % honestly isn't horrible even in Blood where no casting buffs exist. Grand Host... is Grant Host, Sacrament gets its +1 even before the battalion, and Night has Morbheg's Claw, which is a personal favourite of mine.

On that note, I've lived by the tenets of 'Who's The Beatdown?' for almost the entirety of my gaming life since I came across that article, but it's late and I think that can wait until tomorrow when I can do the topic justice.

[swarmofseals]

6 hours ago, Jai said:

On that note, I've lived by the tenets of 'Who's The Beatdown?' for almost the entirety of my gaming life since I came across that article, but it's late and I think that can wait until tomorrow when I can do the topic justice.

I wrote quite a bit from this perspective in the Grand Host thread, and I think its a way of thinking that AoS players could benefit greatly from adapting.

While I definitely think the regular Vampire Lord is still a very solid choice, I'm a bit less high on it than I was a week or so ago. The nerf to the command ability makes it somewhat less attractive. It's still a good command ability and you are absolutely right about the way it's multiplicative with something like Vanhel's. There isn't a whole lot though that you are going to destroy with Vanhels +1 attack that you wouldn't already be destroying with just Vanhel's. I don't really think it's quite mandatory anymore, but it's still clearly a great choice.

One other thing that I've been thinking about again is the question of Chainrasp Horde vs. Skeleton Warriors. On defense they are the same against rend - and mortal wounds, but chainrasps are better against anything with rend. They also fly and are faster. On offense the skeletons are better in most situations, but the difference is not massive. It'll show up mostly when the skeletons can get more models into range due to the 2" reach. In an ideal situation where all models can fight, chainrasps supported by a Guardian of Souls are actually better than skeletons supported by a Death hero. Chainrasps also don't fall off nearly as much when they aren't fighting at full strength. This often won't matter as units will largely be either totally destroyed or full, but in some compositions that don't have as much Deathly Invocation or in situations where your opponent is going second in the battle round and you took casualties in melee during your turn it will matter. 

I think you'll take 40 Skeleton Warriors a lot of the time, but I could see times when you might take chainrasps instead, and if I were building a list with two big blocks I'd be pretty tempted to take one of each instead of two skeleton blocks.... unless it was a Grand Host of Nagash list with Ossific Diadem/Lord of Nagashizzar, in which case obv. skellies.

[Oogje]

Some really interesting thoughts! Definitely going to respond more thoroughly, but your point about chainrasp really got me. Running a 20 man skellies is just wrong but running 20 chaingast actually feels like a solid choice, opening some breathing room for put overpriced named characters! Will do some list building and thinking! 

[CharnelChimera]

With the changes to allegiance abilities (specifically Deathless Minions) no longer affecting allies regardless of keywords, is there any reason to humor Nighthaunt/FEC allies in LoN?

I was thinking of taking a GKoTG as an ally, but now that it doesn't project Deathless Minions (or even be effected by it), I'm super disappointed. Is it worth taking just for the extra squad of Flayers/Horrors anyway?

[Jai]

I think I'd only really consider GKoTG in a Night army at this point. You're likely running Cogs for the jump turn anyway, and this just adds even more to the backline pressure. I think I'd much rather take GKoTG+Cogs over Morghast Harbingers, to be honest; the King at least gets his pseudo-Death save off his spell, whereas the Morghasts are unbuffable and are probably going to die on the spot.

Plus, of course, that's 400+ point of things on the table contributing to the fight instead of waiting for the right moment to come on.

[Sception]

I think GKoTG and Reikenor are both still viable choices as allies.  The swordy ghosts possibly as well, though more grimghasts would probably be just better.

[swarmofseals]

9 hours ago, CharnelChimera said:

With the changes to allegiance abilities (specifically Deathless Minions) no longer affecting allies regardless of keywords, is there any reason to humor Nighthaunt/FEC allies in LoN?

I was thinking of taking a GKoTG as an ally, but now that it doesn't project Deathless Minions (or even be effected by it), I'm super disappointed. Is it worth taking just for the extra squad of Flayers/Horrors anyway?

 

8 hours ago, Sception said:

I think GKoTG and Reikenor are both still viable choices as allies.  The swordy ghosts possibly as well, though more grimghasts would probably be just better.

I think there are a couple of ally choices that have the potential to be actively good and plenty that are "viable" depending on your standards.

I'm not a big fan of GKoTG. I ran the efficiency numbers on the combination of a GKoTG and 3 Crypt Flayers and the numbers just aren't impressive. The defensive efficiency and offensive efficiency are both OK but nothing to write home about. It's solidly mediocre. Solidly mediocre in an absolute sense isn't bad for a behemoth, but in this case it's competing against the VLoZD which has a lot of extra utility. The VLoZD is nice in large part because you can give it a good defensive artefact and turn it into your toughest possible general. There's a great deal of value in that given how important the general is now. If your general is already set and you just want a big monster hammer, then Vhordrai is likely a better option as he is significantly more offensively efficient than the GKoTG and his summoned unit combined. Also, the summoned unit isn't free -- it costs a CP. I haven't factored that into the calculation, but it's noteworthy. All that being said, I think that GKoTG is a perfectly viable choice, just not the most efficient one.

I think that you are correct about the bladegheists too. I just don't see them comparing favorably to grimghasts when they don't get the 6+ save, and you're rather priced into bringing a Spirit Torment which you don't need to do with the grimghasts. That said, I do also think they are viable. They are a good unit and can certainly produce good results.

I definitely think Reikenor is a very interesting option. He's a mobile wizard that isn't embarrassing in combat, which is pretty significant for some of the new missions. His spell is also nifty now that Lens of Refraction is nerfed. The really nice thing though is his ability to pick off a specific model, which is quite unique in GA; Death. With the newly clarified pile in rules and the 2.0 rule about disrupted unit coherency, having the mere ability to zap a specific model greatly limits your opponent's movement choices in certain situations. Even if he is just picking off command models the ability is quite nice. Some armies really expect to be able to balloon string though, and merely having Reikenor on the battlefield will stop them from doing this. 

I'm a bit less high on Lady Olynder and the new Black Coach as neither are particularly efficient and Olynder is a huge liability on defense, but both of these have the capability of bringing back multiple Spirit Hosts every turn. If you are running a lot of Spirit Hosts, then these guys can provide quite a bit of value.

Last but not least are the Myrmourn Banshees. I actually think they might be better as allies in a legion list than they are in actual Nighthaunt. They hit hard and their dispel/unbind is great. The problem is that their unit is small and easy to take off the table. In Nighthaunt that's a big problem, but in Legions you can just bring them back, thus compensating for their largest weakness. 

[Sception]

20 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Last but not least are the Myrmourn Banshees. I actually think they might be better as allies in a legion list than they are in actual Nighthaunt. They hit hard and their dispel/unbind is great. The problem is that their unit is small and easy to take off the table. In Nighthaunt that's a big problem, but in Legions you can just bring them back, thus compensating for their largest weakness. 

You cannot bring them back.  Allied units cannot benefit from allegiance abilities, including endless legions.

[Jai]

You can't Endless Legions them, but Deathly Invocation still does work. Granted, I don't see any reason why you can't just ally a couple of VLs into Nighthaunt and come out with much the same effect!

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, Jai said:

You can't Endless Legions them, but Deathly Invocation still does work. Granted, I don't see any reason why you can't just ally a couple of VLs into Nighthaunt and come out with much the same effect!

 

3 hours ago, Sception said:

You cannot bring them back.  Allied units cannot benefit from allegiance abilities, including endless legions.

Was this specifically stated in the most recent FAQ? Because the endless legions trait grants an ability to the general, not to the unit. It grants a command ability which works on any summonable unit. By the same logic, any allegiance-specific spell lore spell that targets friendly models couldn't target allies -- and it's pretty clear that isn't the case. For example, the Sylvaneth spell Regrowth can pretty clearly target non-Sylvaneth units. Similarly, you shouldn't be able to heal an allied model with Vile Transference but I'm pretty sure you can.

[RuneBrush]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Was this specifically stated in the most recent FAQ? Because the endless legions trait grants an ability to the general, not to the unit. It grants a command ability which works on any summonable unit. By the same logic, any allegiance-specific spell lore spell that targets friendly models couldn't target allies -- and it's pretty clear that isn't the case. For example, the Sylvaneth spell Regrowth can pretty clearly target non-Sylvaneth units. Similarly, you shouldn't be able to heal an allied model with Vile Transference but I'm pretty sure you can.

Sadly they did confirm that.  It does mean that allies are going to be significantly less resilient than in a pure Nighthaunt army.

[swarmofseals]

5 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Sadly they did confirm that.  It does mean that allies are going to be significantly less resilient than in a pure Nighthaunt army.

Augh, I saw the Deathless Minions bit but somehow glazed over Endless Legions. OK, forget about Myrmourn Banshees for now then.

[Oogje]

That's a big damper on the ally potential indeed. Cements grimghast and chaingast as the only nighthaunt worthy of LON. 

next big question than is the executioner as a cheap hero for lon with its point cost it competes with endless spells additional CPs. Which are extremely important in Nagash builds. But only really gives more pop summonable out of graveyards. But for 60 more you get a VL. 

Hmmm I'm going to try and build up some analyse for which starter set units are good enough for lon beyond grims and chaingast... 

 

What does nighthaunt bring beyond grimghast reapers and chaingast. 

[Lemon Knuckles]

38 minutes ago, Oogje said:

That's a big damper on the ally potential indeed. Cements grimghast and chaingast as the only nighthaunt worthy of LON. 

next big question than is the executioner as a cheap hero for lon with its point cost it competes with endless spells additional CPs. Which are extremely important in Nagash builds. But only really gives more pop summonable out of graveyards. But for 60 more you get a VL. 

Hmmm I'm going to try and build up some analyse for which starter set units are good enough for lon beyond grims and chaingast... 

 

What does nighthaunt bring beyond grimghast reapers and chaingast. 

I think Reikenor has niche application in certain LoN builds as well.

[Oogje]

2 minutes ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

I think Reikenor has niche application in certain LoN builds as well.

Yeah saw The guy blood and he didn't get cogs off ruining his ambush charges.. Reik would fix that instantly definitely an advantage because you can't run arkhan in blood. [Edit or is it night I always mix those up] 

[Lemon Knuckles]

Night is ambush, Blood is big, bad vampires. 

And yes, both of those are places where you really want Cogs to go off, and where I think Reikenor can do some real good.  Night does have access to the Claw artefact though.

[swarmofseals]

Don't underestimate the ability to knock out a specific model either. There are some enemies that have powerful, small radius buffs that come from relatively weak support heroes. Just having Reikenor forces them to move those support heroes forward as balloon strings are no longer an option. 

[AverageBoss]

I will be trying out a Black Coach alongside some Grimghasts and Chainrasps in Legions.

Odd choices with the FAQ imo. Specifically on Invigorating Aura (and ability specifically given to gravesites, not units), Endless Legions (a command ability), and the Guardian of Souls (making him the only wizard that I can think of that can't select a spell from a lore in an army that has them). Errata to say the first two only work on units with a Legions keyword seems like it would have been a cleaner way to achieve the same effect. The third I just find baffling.

[swarmofseals]

I've got a couple of list ideas that I've been brewing, and I'm not entirely sure which legion would be the best choice for them. I figure this might be a good place to discuss them and some of the specific warscrolls in a broader context than a single legion.

 

List one: Double Dragons -- maybe competitive? probably no better than tier 2.

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (General) - 440

Prince Vhordrai - 480

Necromancer - 110

40 Skeleton Warriors (spears) - 280

30 Grimghast Reapers - 360

5 Dire Wolves - 60

5 Dire Wolves - 60

 

That leaves 210 points left over. My main ideas for the remaining points are either a unit of 12 allied Myrmourn Banshees, a second Necromancer and either 2 CP or Cogs, or Reikenor the Grimhailer. The banshees are reasonably good in combat and add in pretty hefty unbind (albeit at restricted range), while a second Necromancer would add a critical backup Vanhels and give access to a second extra spell. 2 extra CP would allow me to be more liberal with early command abilities as this army has quite a few that it might want to use. Reikenor is third mobile hero that is reasonably capable in combat, has a powerful spell (now that lens isn't such a menace), and has the VERY unique ability (at least in this grand alliance) to reach out and kill a specific enemy model. I'm going to talk about this more later (in my second list idea), but suffice to say that I think this ability has a great amount of value.

Spell choice is pretty straightforward. I certainly want Overwhelming Dread on the first Necromancer. The two vampires will likely want pinions and Vile Transference, probably pinions on Vhordrai and transference on the VLoZD. A second Necromancer could take a couple of different options.

Artefact choice is a bit less clear as there are a bunch of viable options now that lens isn't nigh-mandatory. Offensively, the Thermalrider Cloak and Dimensional Blade are both attractive, while the Gryph Feather Charm, Ignax's Scales, Ethereal Amulet, and Doppelganger Cloak stand out defensively. If I go for Legion of Sacrament, then the -1/-2 to hit with shooting artefact is also worth considering.

If I go for a more offensive artefact, I'm somewhat inclined to go for the Thermalrider Cloak over blade, more rend is always nice, but having cloak really gives the pair great reach. With Vhordrai hitting pinions they'd be able to  move 18-19" each (with an outside shot at 24" for V), which is enough to hit pretty deep into enemy territory on turn 1 in most battleplans.

Defensively, I think a lot depends on the metagame. If the metagame favors rendy attacks, Ethereal Amulet looks great on the VLoZD's 3+ save. If mortal wound spam is prevalent, then Ignax's Scales would be much better. I could also imagine circumstances where either of the hit penalty items are better, although I suspect they will be somewhat more narrow.

The most obvious legion choice is Legion of Blood, upping the striking power of the VLoZD and giving access to the nice reroll charges command trait. I could see this being a good choice. I'm leaning a bit toward Legion of Sacrament, however. The casting bonus is key, of course, but the command ability that allows you to move units 3" in your hero phase is very powerful. It gives the two dragons even better reach on turn 1 and even gives your grimghasts and Dire Wolves an outside shot depending on the battleplan and opponent positioning. It also makes taking 40 chainrasps instead of the skeletons more attractive as they will keep up with the rest of the army much better. A final option would be to drop the skeletons in favor of another 5 dire wolves and another unit of 30 grimghasts. That'd eat 140 of the surplus points though. 

What I like about this list: The strengths of the list are definitely in mobility and ability to concentrate damage in a small space. The two dragons provide immense reach, and their breath weapons mean that you have a reasonable ability to dump wounds on key support heroes or monsters. The rest of the list is pretty respectably fast, especially if you go with Legion of Sacrament. You can plausibly play this as an alpha strike, but you can also play a reactive game as well due to the ability to concentrate damage. It's definitely not all-in on an alpha strike plan like a double Dragonlord Host list. If your opponent concentrates on your dragons, then they still have a couple of very capable blocks to dislodge, so I can imagine your opponent going on the defense but not being able to recover in time to push your blocks off objectives after dealing with the dragons. Another option is to lead with your troops. As long as your opponent doesn't have fantastic mobility, you can afford to be a little reckless with your blocks as you can bring them back as you lose them. In this case, you present several key threats to your opponent -- two blocks of offensively capable scorers (at least in most battleplans), a very tough general that can bring units back, and a very punchy "distraction carnifex". If your opponent concentrates resources in order to take down the threats one at a time, you can use your mobility to get around them and rack up points. If your opponent spreads out, you can use your mobility to concentrate most of your power in one area and defeat in detail. In battleplans that require a wizard or artefact hero in order to score.... well you have two of the toughest possible scorers along with one or two backups that are surprisingly annoying to remove. 

What I don't like about this list: You want your spells to go off, but you also don't have overwhelming casting bonuses. You also lack a big bonus to unbind, so any truly magic heavy opponent will likely be able to shut you down, and you won't be able to reliably shut down their magic. The model count is also pretty low, so if a high offense opponent gets the drop on you it could spell trouble. The game-plan likely puts your general in harm's way, which is not something that I love doing in a legions list. This is in part why I'd be more inclined to take a defensive artefact.

 

List two: Arkhan -- more obviously competitive

Arkhan the Black - 320

Reikenor The Grimhailer (ally) - 180

Necromancer (overwhelming dread) - 110

Necromancer  (fading vigor) - 110

30 Grimghast Reapers - 360

40 Skeleton Warriors (spears) - 280

5 Dire Wolves - 60

 

That leaves 580 points with the need to fill a battleline slot. I think that any further decisions are really heavily influenced by the legion choice. As Arkhan is in the list there are only two choices: sacrament and grand host.

I think most aspects of sacrament are better -- better battle traits by far (I don't intend to use morghasts), and better artefacts (although depending on the rest of the build I could see taking an artefact from the realms). The problem -- and it's a big problem -- is that sacrament forces Arkhan to be the general. I dislike this for several reasons. First and foremost, Arkhan is not that tough. A 4+ save and 11 wounds is ok, but as a monster with no artefact he's really quite squishy. Keeping the general alive is very important. The second problem is that Arkhan is also a major power locus for the army. Even without being the general he's very threatening to the opponent. As the general, it makes him the no-brainer target number one for the opponent, and if the opponent has the ability to catch him or has significant ranged damage you are going to have to keep him way back, and against some opponents you may not be able to keep him safe at all. If Arkhan is the general, then losing him is just a tremendous blow.

Grand host, on the other hand, doesn't bring all that much to the table except allowing you to field something else as the general. That's a huge advantage though, and I think there are two major possibilities to consider: Coven Throne and Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. The VLoZD is definitely the more impactful option. It has more wounds, a better save, a d6 heal, and is strong in combat (although actually using that combat ability does of course put him at risk). Give him one of the defensive options discussed in the first list and he becomes quite a tank. I don't think the Coven Throne should be ignored though. It's command ability is pretty decent, and although it has fewer wounds than the VLoZD it has the benefit of not being a monster. Thus it can benefit from cover and "Look Out, Sir!". Equip it with a Gryph-feather Charm and Aura of Ages and now you've got a 12 wound general with a 4+ (3+ in cover) save that is -2 to hit with shooting and -1 to hit in close combat with a 4+ chance of being -2 to hit in close combat. Furthermore, Beguile can be used to keep a threatening unit away (or can be borrowed by Arkhan to do the same for him). The Coven Throne won't do much damage, but it does save 180 points when compared to the VLoZD. Of course, you could also go with Lord of Nagashizzar instead of Aura of Ages.

So that basically leaves us with three scenarios: grand host with VLoZD, grand host with Coven Throne, and sacrament:

• Grand host with VLoZD eats up 440 of the 580 points, likely meaning filling that last battleline slot with another 5 dire wolves. That leaves 80 points for either a CP and some cheap endless spell, 5 more Dire Wolves, a Corpse Cart to make up for the loss of +1 to cast, or a unit of Bat Swarms. 
• Grand host with Coven Throne eats up 260 points, leaving us with 320 points. We could go for another big blob -- a full sized unit of Dire Wolves, Skeleton Warriors or Chainrasp Horde, which would leave either nothing or 40 points for endless spells. Another possibility would be to drop something, take another min sized unit of Dire Wolves and a second blob of grimghasts. If we dropped the second Necromancer that'd be all we could fit. If we dropped Reikenor we'd have 80 points left over for the same options that I listed for 80 points in the first entry. A last option to consider might be a Guardian of Souls and either a unit of 20 chainrasps and a 20 point endless spell or a unit of 5 Dire Wolves  and some combination of things previously mentioned for the last 120.
• Sacrament has the widest number of possibilities, but I'm going to loosely group them into two subtypes. First you've got lists that take a big, scary thing to take attention away from Arkhan. This'd likely be a VLoZD or Vhordrai. Vhordrai leaves points for a unit of Dire Wolves and an endless spell, while VLoZD leaves points for Dire Wolves and then something from the 80 point list that we've already established. The second subtype eschews any other big monsters for more bulk. There are tons of directions to go in here, but they largely break down into whether or not you take a second unit of grimghasts. A second unit of grimghasts leaves 220 points for the rest, so perhaps 10 chainrasps and a Guardian of Souls. If you don't take a second unit of grimghasts, you're probably taking a block of chainrasps or a second block of skeleton warriors, leaving 300 points to play with. I'm not even sure what to do with that -- could even be yet another big block of chainrasps/skeletons or a unit of 20 grimghasts. I'm probably inclined to go the 60 grimghast route, but that could easily be just my lack of wanting to sort out the rest of the list talking. 

 

Phew, that was an epic long post. I'd appreciate any thoughts you all have on any of these various possibilities. I apologize in advance if some of it loses coherency -- it was written over the course of several days.

[Ratrek]

Greetings all,

Just a random question tonight: Why is it that I typically see more LoN armies with only two big blocks of things?

Maybe I'm crazy, or my experiance at lower point games is skewing things (or both ?), but one of the major powers of LoN, is being potentially the best horde army (if one isn't taking Big Daddy). Swamp the field in bodies and drown them in skewed dice through buffs. Instead it seems to be Vamps on Dragon's for days. Is that simply the cool factor of the dragon or do horde tactics not work as well at tournament standard point levels?

[swarmofseals]

12 hours ago, Ratrek said:

Greetings all,

Just a random question tonight: Why is it that I typically see more LoN armies with only two big blocks of things?

Maybe I'm crazy, or my experiance at lower point games is skewing things (or both ?), but one of the major powers of LoN, is being potentially the best horde army (if one isn't taking Big Daddy). Swamp the field in bodies and drown them in skewed dice through buffs. Instead it seems to be Vamps on Dragon's for days. Is that simply the cool factor of the dragon or do horde tactics not work as well at tournament standard point levels?

I think there are a couple of answers to this, broadly broken down into two categories: tactical and practical.

There are definitely some valid tactical/strategic reasons to bring heavy hitters in a LoN list. The first is that LoN is one of the few armies (along with Tzeentch) that can realistically dominate the magic phase with large bonuses to both cast and unbind. But doing often entails bringing Nagash or Arkhan, both of whom eat up a good chunk of points (especially Nagash). So if you really want to crush with magic, you've gotta spend. Another big reasons is that the general is super important in a Legions list. If the general falls, you can't recycle your units anymore. So from that perspective, it's worthwhile to ensure your general is as tough as possible. That often means bringing something big like a VLoZD or Coven Throne. A third tactical concern is that of damage concentration. While large units are almost always more efficient than single characters or monsters, they also take up a lot more space on the board. In some ways that's an advantage, but it limits your ability to put targeted pressure in a specific place on the board. In an objectives-based game, there are a few places on the battlefield that matter much more than the others, and having a few big things that can really put a lot of power on those spots is advantageous. If you over-invest in hordes, a lot of your models are going to be sitting on their thumbs somewhere rather than getting stuck in. This is particularly true for battleplans that require heroes or wizards to take objectives. 

Then there are the practical reasons: it's expensive and time consuming to take an all-out horde army. Big centerpiece models are expensive, but they tend to be fairly efficient on the price-to-points ratio. In Legions of Nagash this is doubly true as most of our big monsters are cheaply available in Start Collecting or other discounted boxes. It's rare to find a Death player that doesn't have a mortarch or dragon kit, and it's relatively cheap to buy one of these on the secondary market. You'd have to be pretty new to the game and uninformed to pay anything close to sticker price for these kits. Horde stuff is harder to find at a discount. The units are part of discount boxes, but you can't just buy a bunch of those because then you end up with waaaay too many heroes. At some point you have to buy regular boxes. And then you have to actually paint them. I'm in the middle of painting a 40 block of skeleton warriors, and it's taking me forever. I could do it faster, but it'd still be relatively boring either way. Painting 120 of them? Ugh. I think most people enjoy painting big centerpiece models and get pretty burned out painting the same infantry models over and over. 

We do a lot of theorycrafting here about optimal lists, but when the rubber meets the road most players are going to factor in cost and time commitment in building their actual armies.

[Honk]

@Ratrek And here I thought with v2 you can choose a new general after your first one got staked, put to the torch or exzorcised...

but first responding to 

16 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I've got a couple of list ideas

Man, I really tried to read it all but the seventh option really kinda, you know...one thing I was missing in your double dragon list was the legion of night ambush...and here is the twist...

with the foot slogging stuff!!!

The rest of the double rider lists depend too much on opponent and scenario...

for arkhan not sure... go for the battalion and endless spells?! Pendulum, portal+soul harvest, cogs and vortex BOOOOOM!!!

3x10 wolves

and i kinda fell in love with the three nice ladies in skimpy clothing...and a vamp lord on horse.

 

and back to @Ratrek 

40 skellis/ 40 skellis /60 zOmbies and a corpse cart...

280/280/320/80 points (960) double necro, vamp lord (110/110/140) for 360...that’s 1420 points

580 points left... 

maybe 3x10 wolves (360) 

a vortex, the pendulum and the cogs (40,40,60) 

points for an additional CP... or the palisades if opponent shoots too much

 

but horde killers will wreck you 

(gaunt summoner, plague claws...)