AoS 2 - Wanderers Discussion

[overtninja]

@Gwendar My advice is to not ignore melee in whichever list you build towards. You want to be able to do something strong in every phase, and most other armies do their work in the combat phase, so you want to not only give them something to interact with, but also be able to do some of your work in that phase as well. If you go too heavy into shooting you'll either win or lose on that phase alone, and it's not fun for either player that way, in my experience.

Alpha strike for Wanderers is really strong, but you'll need something to either tank the offensive of your opponent (EG do a great job of this), or go in and fight what's left (allied Sylvaneth/other Aelves do great here, as well as WWR, and even like 10 Wild Riders on the charge). Wanderers have some of the most reliable shooting in the whole game but it won't do all the work you need it to by itself.

[Gwendar]

@overtninja The 2k list uses 40 Dryads (with more to summon in via the Branchwraith). All of the 500 point games were pretty evenly matched to be honest, although that was my first go at the army and I made positioning errors. Of course, 500 points is typically pretty unbalanced and never a good gauge of anything.

I think what I could do for 1k is the following:
Allegiance: The Living City
Waywatcher (120)
- General
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Waywatcher (120)
30 x Glade Guard (360)
20 x Dryads (200)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Scythes

Total: 1000 / 1000

This way I could come in with Dryads\Kurnoths on a board edge to screen the GG so they don't get wiped off the board T1 like the SotW did. To be honest, this army isn't fully functional in the way I hope until I hit that 2k mark and can get some Woods out.

[overtninja]

@GwendarI'm going to guess that you'll be using a TLA eventually to get yourself some Wyldwoods? I think Firestorm was printed when you could just pay 40 points to purchase a Wyldwood, but that's no longer the case. The faction likely worked better back then. :s

[Gwendar]

@overtninja Yep, that's about the only thing I really can do unfortunately which does have me worried about rolling that 4+ to place one. I've posted an alternate take on the 2k list using 2 ballistas and an Ordinator in exchange for 10 Sotw and a Waywatcher for a potentially better T1 alpha strike. No feedback on that however. It really comes down to what 2 Ballistas in 18" range can do vs another 20 shots worth of SotW and a Waywatcher using fast-shots.

I don't expect to do incredibly well with it anyway, and pure Sylvaneth would definitely be better, but I think at this point I'm too far along with Wanderers (in terms of purchased\built\painted models) to back away from Living City.

[Popisdead]

On 1/15/2019 at 3:55 AM, overtninja said:

My advice is to not ignore melee in whichever list you build towards. ..

, and even like 10 Wild Riders...

I quite like my Wyldwood Rangers.  Nice models, great reach, good stats.  A synergistic combo would be great (if the Waystrider ability was a straight attack again it would be lovely)

Wild Riders aren't a great choice but their movement is helpful for late game objective grabbers.  I don't see them as too dissimilar to Centigors or Pleasure Seekers of Slaanesh (granted Centigors are 60 points less and better). 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Popisdead

[overtninja]

@Gwendar Alpha strike is well and good, but strong, reliable shooting helps over the whole game. I'd much sooner take the waywatcher for character sniping (he's still amazing at it, hitting on 3s if he doesn't move even with Look Out, Sir), and SotW always do me proud, especially given how many Chaos factions I play against and see around in general. Those ballista are no joke, but I'd much prefer the elves who hit and wound always instead. Besides, elves look cooler imo.

@Popisdead Yeah, cavalry in general sacrifices a lot in AoS in return for moving fast, but given the nature of the game it makes sense that they do. I do like that a Spellweaver's signature spell can bring up to 3 models back, though, since it's really good for the points if you cast it on cavalry. As far as whole-army composition, they are easily the most mobile thing we have, and grabbing objectives with something that can fight decently is nothing to scoff at. It would be nice if they were a bit cheaper, but I understand their price point give how strong movement is.

[Gwendar]

@overtninja True...I suppose you're right. I just had these grand conversion (or replacements) for the crew and ballista, but I already have the other Waywatcher and SotW built and painted. Damage wise they aren't awfully far off and I really feel that you need 3 Ballistas + Ordinator to make them really strong. I think it's just leftovers from a few months back when I wanted to build into Greywater fastness build using 4 Ballistas and Steam Tanks...anyway.

How have you dealt with positioning the SotW? I played another 500 point game yesterday and I feel with the 18" range that it's really hard to prevent them to not get charged and they inevitably die or get taken down to half in the first round of combat. Now granted, they tend to take more wounds off a unit (or snipe a character) so they earn their points back\close to it, but I really feel like I could be doing something better with them. Maybe the issue is just sending them in alone and once I go Living City I may not have the issue since they can be accompanied by a screening unit.. although 6" isn't much to work with and I worry about fitting 20 in that short distance.

[GM_Monkey]

21 hours ago, Gwendar said:

...
How have you dealt with positioning the SotW? I played another 500 point game yesterday and I feel with the 18" range that it's really hard to prevent them to not get charged and they inevitably die or get taken down to half in the first round of combat. Now granted, they tend to take more wounds off a unit (or snipe a character) so they earn their points back\close to it, but I really feel like I could be doing something better with them. Maybe the issue is just sending them in alone and once I go Living City I may not have the issue since they can be accompanied by a screening unit.. although 6" isn't much to work with and I worry about fitting 20 in that short distance.

For me I always use a screen unit of Eternal guard (usually 20) in front of them, really helps to keep the hurt of the SotW

[Aezeal]

22 hours ago, overtninja said:

@Gwendar Alpha strike is well and good, but strong, reliable shooting helps over the whole game. I'd much sooner take the waywatcher for character sniping (he's still amazing at it, hitting on 3s if he doesn't move even with Look Out, Sir), and SotW always do me proud, especially given how many Chaos factions I play against and see around in general. Those ballista are no joke, but I'd much prefer the elves who hit and wound always instead. Besides, elves look cooler imo.

@Popisdead Yeah, cavalry in general sacrifices a lot in AoS in return for moving fast, but given the nature of the game it makes sense that they do. I do like that a Spellweaver's signature spell can bring up to 3 models back, though, since it's really good for the points if you cast it on cavalry. As far as whole-army composition, they are easily the most mobile thing we have, and grabbing objectives with something that can fight decently is nothing to scoff at. It would be nice if they were a bit cheaper, but I understand their price point give how strong movement is.

We pay for movement yes... and it's worth something... but in never armies it seem they don't have to pay for it a lot.... which seems like a slight (cough) imbalance.

22 hours ago, Gwendar said:

@overtninja True...I suppose you're right. I just had these grand conversion (or replacements) for the crew and ballista, but I already have the other Waywatcher and SotW built and painted. Damage wise they aren't awfully far off and I really feel that you need 3 Ballistas + Ordinator to make them really strong. I think it's just leftovers from a few months back when I wanted to build into Greywater fastness build using 4 Ballistas and Steam Tanks...anyway.

How have you dealt with positioning the SotW? I played another 500 point game yesterday and I feel with the 18" range that it's really hard to prevent them to not get charged and they inevitably die or get taken down to half in the first round of combat. Now granted, they tend to take more wounds off a unit (or snipe a character) so they earn their points back\close to it, but I really feel like I could be doing something better with them. Maybe the issue is just sending them in alone and once I go Living City I may not have the issue since they can be accompanied by a screening unit.. although 6" isn't much to work with and I worry about fitting 20 in that short distance.

You really need melee in front of your shooters (and then hope they can't teleport behind you or fly) . In the current game shooters (and especially our shooters with 20"or less range) cannot get out of reach of melee at all. 

[overtninja]

22 hours ago, Gwendar said:

@overtninja True...I suppose you're right. I just had these grand conversion (or replacements) for the crew and ballista, but I already have the other Waywatcher and SotW built and painted. Damage wise they aren't awfully far off and I really feel that you need 3 Ballistas + Ordinator to make them really strong. I think it's just leftovers from a few months back when I wanted to build into Greywater fastness build using 4 Ballistas and Steam Tanks...anyway.

How have you dealt with positioning the SotW? I played another 500 point game yesterday and I feel with the 18" range that it's really hard to prevent them to not get charged and they inevitably die or get taken down to half in the first round of combat. Now granted, they tend to take more wounds off a unit (or snipe a character) so they earn their points back\close to it, but I really feel like I could be doing something better with them. Maybe the issue is just sending them in alone and once I go Living City I may not have the issue since they can be accompanied by a screening unit.. although 6" isn't much to work with and I worry about fitting 20 in that short distance.

I run 2 groups of 10 (I use the old metal Waywatcher models, since I have that many and they are cool as all get out), and I usually position one along one table edge and the other along the other, so they can scoot wherever they need to. If my opponent lets me, I teleport behind them and snipe characters out with them, particularly the ones that buff things or soft casters. They hit on 4s even with Look Out, Sir, so they are fantastic for that. On my opponent's turn, they either have to divert a unit to chase them down, or leave them to continue their reign of terror, and I can (hopefully!) teleport them to safety if they end up in trouble. And honestly, if they kill a buffing hero or severely damage a hard target so you can clear them up, but subsequently die, they've usually messed with my opponent enough that they've done their job. It gets a bit ugly if my opponents direct spells at them, so I try to hug terrain and otherwise keep a LoS block in between me and casters. 

It helps that I also run Glade Guard up the middle, since they can move and shoot, though I put them down last usually so I can see where my opponent is soft, and if the opportunity presents I put a group of them on a flank also to teleport and snag an objective. I try to cover a lot of angles with my shooting, so that my opponents are forced to focus on a flank and get shot the whole way in, with the risk of being focused down by a cross-table teleport from my general's Stalker trait. In big games where I can use the battalion, I'm hoping to also bring a Wending Wand to allow extreme flexibility for my units' teleporting.

Um, I'm rambling a bit, but with Living City you'll want to park one unit of SotW front and center so they can shoot as much of the field as possible without moving, I think. You can deploy on table edges with other units so you will be better served by deploying serious melee threats close to your opponent and a pretty beefy shooting bunker in the middle to soften up opponents. If your opponent presents a juicy target and you feel you can get away with it, don't hesitate to put a group of them close to the target, and if you have to, just have them move and shoot. You'll lose out of the extra shots, which is a shame, but it's better than shooting nothing, and might set you up for next turn.

[overtninja]

17 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

We pay for movement yes... and it's worth something... but in never armies it seem they don't have to pay for it a lot.... which seems like a slight (cough) imbalance.

Oh yeah, certainly, if you're not a Battletome army you're playing hardmode, but we knew this already. ;p Honestly, if playing the faction didn't feel like trying to squeeze water out of a rock sometimes, it wouldn't be in keeping with the fine Wood Elf tradition.

[Gwendar]

Appreciate all the advice everyone. Screening is obviously the best solution here, but currently with only being able to teleport 1 unit (and the low point value giving me few units to work with), I haven't properly been able to do this and typically just use the Kurnoths to screen the Waywatcher as my opponents have been pretty aggressive towards him vs the 10 SotW that delete their units. 

@overtninja I had some debate about putting the SotW in 2x10. Creating a nice bunker in the middle of the table with 20 of them screened by some Dryads or Kurnoths is nice as well. A lot of my decisions will be dependent on Woods placement and if I even get them off in the 1st turn or not. Sometimes I've considered just sticking to generic Wanderers or going pure Sylvaneth w/ allies but... I think after painting 50 elves so far, I don't want to do anymore and I wouldn't be able to ally everything in for Sylvaneth so I think that choice is pretty much set in stone at this point.

[Popisdead]

On 1/17/2019 at 6:00 AM, overtninja said:

 

@Popisdead Yeah, cavalry in general sacrifices a lot in AoS in return for moving fast, but given the nature of the game it makes sense that they do. I do like that a Spellweaver's signature spell can bring up to 3 models back, though, since it's really good for the points if you cast it on cavalry. As far as whole-army composition, they are easily the most mobile thing we have, and grabbing objectives with something that can fight decently is nothing to scoff at. It would be nice if they were a bit cheaper, but I understand their price point give how strong movement is.

I keep forgetting about that spell since Warhawks riders are no longer Wanderer. I was reading the mounted glade lord scroll yesterday, and felt he was okay, and with the Wanderer keyword and an item would be handy.

4 hours ago, overtninja said:

(I use the old metal Waywatcher models, since I have that many and they are cool as all get out),

I do too plus lots of females in that original line.

4 hours ago, overtninja said:

Oh yeah, certainly, if you're not a Battletome army you're playing hardmode, but we knew this already. 😜 Honestly, if playing the faction didn't feel like trying to squeeze water out of a rock sometimes, it wouldn't be in keeping with the fine Wood Elf tradition.

you're forgetting that in 2005 they were OP for about a year (until the power-3 came out during 7th) and in 8th they were good for 13 months.  Gotta ride that wave when it comes.

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Appreciate all the advice everyone. Screening is obviously the best solution here,

I think even 10 EG are a descent speed bump,.. I miss great eagles.  Dryads would be a fine option, or Spite Revenants since they are 70 points but,.. I guess EG are better then.

[Gwendar]

@Popisdead Dryads will definitely be making their debut at the 1k mark since at that point I will go with Living City to get them and the GG\SotW coming in together.

Lower point values are hard to gauge of any tactical ability since no one can really bring the right tools for any job. I have some 750 and 1k games scheduled for next weekend since I have to do some OT this weekend, but I will be sure to update you all with some quick batreps if you want. I think once I go Living City..I may still post them here opposed to the Firestorm thread.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gwendar

[Popisdead]

maybe post them in both if possible.  I've been playing 1000 point games of 40k lately (2 really young kids) and keen to get into 1k games of AoS as well.  With Skirmish giving the local area a boost it may help to be a presence locally at smaller games and I'm quite keen to show the variation with older non-book armies like Wanderers, and Living City.   Play the narrative and not just be some gamer who strictly pushes the top tournament list.  

[Gwendar]

At the very least I'll post it up somewhere and then just let everyone know where to find it. As long as people like reading them as much as I enjoy writing them then I'll keep doing it... even if not I'll probably do it anyway.

But yeah, I tend to prefer playing "lesser-seen" armies and ones that struggle on average. I've found that with any tabletop wargame that has always been the case and it has always helped me improve. I would rather do decently well with optimized lists that inherently struggle with other armies than run ones that stomp most things into the ground with little effort.

That said, with all of these updates, I can easily see a compendium tome for aelves (probably dwarves\humans as well) that would bring things up to par in the same way as Beasts, LoN, Gitz, Future Skaven book, etc.

[Gwendar]

Hey everyone, actually got my 750 point league game in today vs Daughters of Khaine with..interesting results. Still playing on Kill Points, next week with 1k we will begin doing actual objectives starting with Battle for the Pass.

My List
Allegiance: Wanderers
Waywatcher (120)
- General
- Trait: Eagle-eyed 
- Artefact: Starcaster Longbow 
20 x Glade Guard (240)
10 x Sisters of the Watch (180)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Scythes
Total: 740 / 750

DoK List
Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Hag Queen (60)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples 
- Artefact: Iron Circlet 
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
Total: 750 / 750


T1
I elect my opponent to go first while I try to screen the Heartrenders as best I can in deployment. All that really ends up happening is having 7 Glade Guard die to the Khinerai that I didn't expect her to drop down right away, battleshock took another 3. I chose to teleport up the SotW to be in range of the 20 unit of Witches killing ~5 while the Waywatcher and 10 remaining GG shot into the Khinerai and managed to kill 7 with battleshock only taking 1 more, unfortunately.


T2
I get the double and put 4 GG shots into the Khinerai to finish them off and the rest knock a couple of Witches out. The Waywatcher took some pot-shots at the Hag Queen general which brought her down to 2 wounds left... and man do I love still getting shots on 3's\3's despite Look out, Sir. The SotW do their job and manage to leave just 4 Witches left. Opponents turn sees the 30 Witches on the right quickly move up the board to regain some ground but they still aren't quite within charge range. The 4 remaining Witches out front manage to charge the SotW, killing 3 since my overwatch shooting whiffed pretty massively.


T3
I win priority and get the SotW out of there and take them to a better position when the 30 block of Witches inevitably charges the Kurnoths who have moved up to "attempt" to screen the charge. I opt to let the Waywatcher finish off the Hag Queen while the GG take out 2 Witches. Now this is where it starts going downhill; the Witches make an 11" charge and have enough distance to get 3 into the GG and 23 into the Kurnoths. After my opponent kills off 4 GG, I brace for the big hurt of 46 wounds before saves... and somehow I was left with 1 Kurnoth at 4 wounds. I have no explanation for how or why the dice gods managed to help me for once, but re-rolling all failed saves on a 4+ is what did it. Swinging back, boss-tree cleaves off 5 Witches with what I imagine to be the biggest smirk on his face for surviving that atrocious amount of damage.


T4
Opponent wins priority and wipes said smirk off the Kurnoths face and also kill off the GG since they are essentially wet paper. My turn has my Waywatcher decide that it's time to get out and teleports to the back corner while he and the SotW manage to bring the Witches down to 19.


T5
Opponent wins priority again and marches the Witches towards the remaining SotW who kill 2 more with overwatch and then proceed to horribly die. With no way out on the 5th round, the Waywatcher decides to actually start getting meaningful rolls and manages to put out 7 wounds against the Hag Queen to end the game. 

Wanderers win just barely with 53 wounds killed vs the DoK killing 45.



Overall thoughts
I still really love the army, but oh man is it incredibly defensive and very hard to push out of deployment in against faster armies. I will definitely be including 20 or so Dryads at 1k because there's absolutely no way to win objectives games without an additional anvil. Kurnoths continue to prove their worth, being such a great Hammer+Anvil unit rolled into one nice 200 point package.

I have another 750 point game and a couple of 1k games next weekend so I'll be sure to get those posted as well. Thanks for reading!

Edited January 20, 2019 by Gwendar

[Aelfric]

Just to say I was listening to "Doom and Darkness" (Youtube) and his rundown of the Order lists for Cancon in Australia - there are two Wanderers lists going and it'l  be interesting to see how they fare.  Both are using the battalion, but interesting unit choices.

[Gwendar]

@Aelfric Hmm, I just skipped ahead to watch...interesting indeed. There was talk here before about skipping EG altogether and going heavier into shooting and I almost jumped on that idea myself before deciding to go mixed.

I will definitely love to see how they do, especially with Ty apparently doing quite well with them in other tournaments. I have found so far that there is truth in no one knowing how to handle properly handle them.. but there isn't much shooting in my local meta aside from, well, myself.

[Cynric]

The problem with shooting is that it only happens half as often as melee.

[Wilhelm Stürmer]

@Gwendar Interesting read. Looking forward to our 750 matchup.

[Aezeal]

18 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Overall thoughts
I still really love the army, but oh man is it incredibly defensive and very hard to push out of deployment in against faster armies. I will definitely be including 20 or so Dryads at 1k because there's absolutely no way to win objectives games without an additional anvil. Kurnoths continue to prove their worth, being such a great Hammer+Anvil unit rolled into one nice 200 point package.

I have another 750 point game and a couple of 1k games next weekend so I'll be sure to get those posted as well. Thanks for reading!

And this was without objectives... so you could actually teleport at will and still do something towards winning the game with your archers. In objective games they could just move to objective and stay there while they die getting shot at. And if they do that a few turns they'll probably have won even if tabled.

[adreal]

18 hours ago, Cynric said:

The problem with shooting is that it only happens half as often as melee.

Problem with melee is both players can do things in that phase

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

And this was without objectives... so you could actually teleport at will and still do something towards winning the game with your archers. In objective games they could just move to objective and stay there while they die getting shot at. And if they do that a few turns they'll probably have won even if tabled.

I never intended for this to be an ultra competitive army, but rather something to take with my girlfriends DoK army for doubles to provide some shooting support. Still, the theory was that Living City could potentially net me some woods throughout the game which would help with objectives a bit. These lists that we're seeing at Cancon have no EG or any other screening units, so I'm really curious to see how they do.
 

38 minutes ago, adreal said:

Problem with melee is both players can do things in that phase

Too bad SotW and GG have atrocious melee profiles. I guess it's better than nothing, but without some screens (hell, Dryads can actually out decent numbers) I just don't see anyway to make the army work well competitively.

[Popisdead]

A lot of pipe work in that realm @Gwendar 😉  Realm of Mario Bros?

 

Nice write up, pictures served it well.