AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Chumphammer]

8 minutes ago, Nuitari said:

Leak, but I trust this source. 
 

As I sad, for now just split Blood Sisters and it’s fine 

Hmmm....It would be interesting but I doubt it.

Making sisters batteline with either medusa  makes sense as you still have to get to combat to be effective.

Making stalkers doesnt, as you can just shooting spam. 

Will be interesting to see if it turns out to be true

[swarmofseals]

@Chumphammer I've tried very stalker heavy lists pretty extensively and have slowly moved away from that approach in favor of a balance between stalkers and sisters. Pure shooting proved to be too vulnerable to losing the first priority roll and I don't think that being able to cut more battleline would help with that problem.

Having stalkers as battleline would be great, but unless there are other changes that enable a full shooting approach I don't see myself going full ranged.

EDIT: I can imagine going 20 stalkers + Morathi though, of course.

Edited January 28, 2021 by swarmofseals

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

@Chumphammer I've tried very stalker heavy lists pretty extensively and have slowly moved away from that approach in favor of a balance between stalkers and sisters. Pure shooting proved to be too vulnerable to losing the first priority roll and I don't think that being able to cut more battleline would help with that problem.

Having stalkers as battleline would be great, but unless there are other changes that enable a full shooting approach I don't see myself going full ranged.

EDIT: I can imagine going 20 stalkers + Morathi though, of course.

Yeah, I mean if I can run stalkers as core I would take a support unit for sure. Otherwise as I prefer Sisters still I would have to stick to aevles.

If Ironscale does add snakes to core I would try it out

[RickFlair]

17 hours ago, Nuitari said:

Nice list, now I’m playing similar

Morathi w Mindrazor

Shadow Queen

Medusa w Mirror Dance

20 Blood Stalkers

10 Blood Sisters
10 Sisters of Slaughter w bucklets

9 Khanite Shadowstalkers

Lauchon

Vyperic Guard

3 drop list with lot of muvement tricks 

W’ll se how it survivalu new book and how add endless spelle 

 

Looking at building a list for an upcoming game. What is the significance of mirror dance? In what instances would you break that spell out? Wouldn't The Wintering be a better option? Or is the goal of the this list literally just to keep shifting units on the board so much so that its a total pain in the butt for the enemy to pin down a unit to attack? 

[Nuitari]

3 hours ago, RickFlair said:

Looking at building a list for an upcoming game. What is the significance of mirror dance? In what instances would you break that spell out? Wouldn't The Wintering be a better option? Or is the goal of the this list literally just to keep shifting units on the board so much so that its a total pain in the butt for the enemy to pin down a unit to attack? 

Morathi-Khaine cast Lauchon and move herself closer to enemy, Medusa with mirror dance swap Shadow Queen with Morathi, Shadow Queen can move and is close to biggest treat, she recive 3 wounds already from Lauchon and she can tie enemys. You team can grab objectives, takie good position and biggest treat is out of action. Even without this I don’t like Withering.

[Graywater]

11 hours ago, RickFlair said:

Looking at building a list for an upcoming game. What is the significance of mirror dance? In what instances would you break that spell out? Wouldn't The Wintering be a better option? Or is the goal of the this list literally just to keep shifting units on the board so much so that its a total pain in the butt for the enemy to pin down a unit to attack? 

Yeah, mirrordance is pretty crucial to the whole concept. It allows you to nearly guarantee the shadow queen to be right up in your opponent's army, pretty much wherever you want turn 1. It also gives your snakes more flexibility in where you teleport them off to with the command ability, since you can move little morathi up in the boat and project her 24inch range on her command ability much wider before you switch her with the shadow queen. Honestly, I think the mirror dance spell is pretty important with that particular build.

[RickFlair]

1 hour ago, Graywater said:

Yeah, mirrordance is pretty crucial to the whole concept. It allows you to nearly guarantee the shadow queen to be right up in your opponent's army, pretty much wherever you want turn 1. It also gives your snakes more flexibility in where you teleport them off to with the command ability, since you can move little morathi up in the boat and project her 24inch range on her command ability much wider before you switch her with the shadow queen. Honestly, I think the mirror dance spell is pretty important with that particular build.

I'll have to give that list a try. When it comes to theory crafting and understanding the subtleties of list, I am admittedly bad haha. 

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, RickFlair said:

I'll have to give that list a try. When it comes to theory crafting and understanding the subtleties of list, I am admittedly bad haha. 

It seems quite oppressive to play against. Im not sure I'd go too far out of my way to play with it unless you own all the pieces already. At least until the new book. Hard to say what we will and won't have access to with new rules. 

[Nuitari]

17 minutes ago, Graywater said:

It seems quite oppressive to play against. Im not sure I'd go too far out of my way to play with it unless you own all the pieces already. At least until the new book. Hard to say what we will and won't have access to with new rules. 

Since december I played 20+ games with different dok lists (including two 1dayer tornaments) and thats true - it’s hard to play against this.

1 hour ago, RickFlair said:

I'll have to give that list a try. When it comes to theory crafting and understanding the subtleties of list, I am admittedly bad haha. 

If you have everything it’s gas, realy powerfull and lot of tricks. If you planing to buy something, propably better to wiat for new book.

[Graywater]

47 minutes ago, Nuitari said:

Since december I played 20+ games with different dok lists (including two 1dayer tornaments) and thats true - it’s hard to play against this.

I can look at it and say with certainty that it's way stronger than what I've been running for this year. Which is what stands out to me, as I get told that my list is tough to manage as it is at every tournament I go to by at least one opponent. 

Personally I love the way it plays. Just watched it play on YouTube with the goldcon coverage. But I do think it's maybe a little too strong/problematic for the game. Dont want to see daughters return to their overpowered days when they first came out. 

[Nuitari]

21 minutes ago, Graywater said:

I can look at it and say with certainty that it's way stronger than what I've been running for this year. Which is what stands out to me, as I get told that my list is tough to manage as it is at every tournament I go to by at least one opponent. 

Personally I love the way it plays. Just watched it play on YouTube with the goldcon coverage. But I do think it's maybe a little too strong/problematic for the game. Dont want to see daughters return to their overpowered days when they first came out. 

That’s true. I prefer to play as underdog, when I’m not on radar with my army.

New book change a lot, and maybe old good hag narr with elves will be better choice. 

[DJMoose]

1 hour ago, Nuitari said:

That’s true. I prefer to play as underdog, when I’m not on radar with my army.

New book change a lot, and maybe old good hag narr with elves will be better choice. 

With the past couple of games I've played we certainly have a competitive edge against certain armies. But also since we have not been at the top of the meta for some time we have the advantage of players not knowing how dangerous our units can be. That said even with Khaelibron as my temple KO is a really tough match up due to their crazy mobility and unrelenting shooting.

Even if I was using Hag Narr we simply cannot afford to be pushed into a war of attrition. Both of the games I played last Saturday I was able to cripple my opponents line with some first turn charges at key units. And also objective scoring, because that is still the name of the game.

I do look forward to some tweaks to the temples in the new battletome. Putting all of the temples on an even footing will be great for variety of builds and tactics.

[RickFlair]

4 hours ago, Nuitari said:

Since december I played 20+ games with different dok lists (including two 1dayer tornaments) and thats true - it’s hard to play against this.

If you have everything it’s gas, realy powerfull and lot of tricks. If you planing to buy something, propably better to wiat for new book.

Thankfully I have all pieces for it. DoK has been my primary army so I have been going all in on releases like a fool. 

Tonight will just have to be a building frenzy to get them all built in time haha. 

Thank you guys for the info as well! 

[swarmofseals]

23 hours ago, DJMoose said:

That said even with Khaelibron as my temple KO is a really tough match up due to their crazy mobility and unrelenting shooting.

I find this surprising -- have they not folded pretty quickly when you take out their Ironclad on turn 1?

Also, I have to admit to everyone that I'm embarrassed to have completely forgotten that Lauchon exists. It's not foolproof, certainly, but it makes the Morathi + 20 stalkers combo work even without Khailebron, not to mention the Mirror Dance shenanigans that you guys described earlier.

[DJMoose]

11 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I find this surprising -- have they not folded pretty quickly when you take out their Ironclad on turn 1?

With the particular build I was trying I had 4 drops and the KO player had 3. He focused fire on my big snake unit and killed 14 of them in one turn. The dice were firmly against me that game and I was unable to roll armor saves. With lucky rolling on his part his Ironclad was able to stick around with a single wound until turn 2. He went first and I did not get the double turn. All around was a bad luck game despite my best efforts. It was a close game objective wise but it was literally my 2nd time facing the new KO, as they are a relatively new army in my group. Learned much from the two games I have played.

[swarmofseals]

@DJMoose Ahh OK, that does explain it then. When playing against KO if I am not getting the turn choice I'll keep my snakes 15.1" back from my front edge if they are using Grundstok Thunderers and 9.1" back if they aren't. That way my snakes only have to worry about the torpedoes and the big gun. Even using aether-gold that's only going to kill 3-4 snakes on average.

[Boar]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

I'll keep my snakes 15.1" back from my front edge

Aren't you forgetting something? Many battleplans have you deploying 12" from center, this leaves 12" to board edge from frontline. And those that allow 9" from center leave... 15".

Add to that 40mm bases of Melusai and terrain and for larger units even over 9" could be challenging in some cases I guess.

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

Aren't you forgetting something? Many battleplans have you deploying 12" from center, this leaves 12" to board edge from frontline. And those that allow 9" from center leave... 15".

Add to that 40mm bases of Melusai and terrain and for larger units even over 9" could be challenging in some cases I guess.

A fair point -- there are some battleplans where you can't do this. Blood and Glory, Border War, Three Places of Power, Gifts from the Heavens, Take and Hold, Starstrike, Shifting Objectives, and Blade's Edge all have smaller deployment zones like you describe. That's a little less than half of the battleplans, and some of those are pretty rarely played. Of the GHB2020 plans only a quarter have problematic zones. Anyway though, I think that if the matchup is only bad on less than half of the battleplans and even then only if they get to choose to play first (50% chance against 3 drop KO, and never against any other KO build) is a fine matchup overall.

[Nuitari]

I’m actually 8-1 vs KO including one tournament final (we were only two 2-0 players)

My opponents almost always had first turn, sometimes I take 40-50 wounds - doesn’t matter

I always put Stalkers on back, and in front in the same line I put 10 sisters/ 30 WE (depend of list I’m playing) and Shadow Queen.

If he want to focus fire on Stalkers he will be in range of my melle units and Shadow Queen, If he shoot to my battleline then Stalkers are almost  untuched. 
KO are low on bodies, and everything is importach for them. -1 to hit is a nightmare for KO. 
If I get first turn I just dubble shoot to Clad and he lost his mobillity 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Nuitari

[Boar]

7 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

A fair point -- there are some battleplans where you can't do this

Well, especially 15", but upon reflection you can fit 20 snakes inside 3" of board edge (ie. in situations when you have 12" to deploy they can be 9,1" from enemy) as terrain can't be deployed within 3" of board edge. Tough this would be 16" wide deployment in two ranks, and terrain would be problem indirectly then as it could limit somewhat further movement.

35 minutes ago, Nuitari said:

If I get first turn I just dubble shoot to Clad and he lost his mobillity 

After moving them in Lauchon in hero phase I suppose?

[Nuitari]

2 hours ago, Boar said:

 

After moving them in Lauchon in hero phase I suppose?

20  Stalkers doesn’t fit WW 3” of Lauchon

[Boar]

44 minutes ago, Nuitari said:

20  Stalkers doesn’t fit WW 3” of Lauchon

So how are you going to shot twice in first turn then?

Nevermind I didn't know that teleport works in Hero phase

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Boar

[Eternalis]

Hi guys,

Could you tell me what you think about my list? I'm going to a 1k tournament in my LGS and this is what I'll field : 

Temple: Hagg Nar

LEADERS

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290) - General - Command Trait: Devoted Disciples - Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - Artefact: Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor

UNITS

5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300) - Barbed Whips and Bladed Bucklers 
10 x Witch Aelves (120) - Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Extra Command Point (50)

Total : 990pts.

I was wondering if I should get rid of the cauldron to field more bodies. I would have gladly switch the Khinerais for the Shadowstalkers, but I don't have the models (WYSIWYG tournament).

[Nuitari]

11 hours ago, Eternalis said:

Hi guys,

Could you tell me what you think about my list? I'm going to a 1k tournament in my LGS and this is what I'll field : 

Temple: Hagg Nar

LEADERS

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290) - General - Command Trait: Devoted Disciples - Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - Artefact: Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor

UNITS

5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300) - Barbed Whips and Bladed Bucklers 
10 x Witch Aelves (120) - Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Extra Command Point (50)

Total : 990pts.

I was wondering if I should get rid of the cauldron to field more bodies. I would have gladly switch the Khinerais for the Shadowstalkers, but I don't have the models (WYSIWYG tournament).

Hey, this is solid list but I would do some changes:

Replace Medusa and Hag on CoB for Hag on foto and Slaughter Queen on CoB - her CA is a game changer

That’s what I would take for 1k

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
LEADERS
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples - Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
UNITS
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)
TOTAL: 990/2000

   

Edited February 1, 2021 by Nuitari

[stratigo]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:26 PM, swarmofseals said:

@DJMoose Ahh OK, that does explain it then. When playing against KO if I am not getting the turn choice I'll keep my snakes 15.1" back from my front edge if they are using Grundstok Thunderers and 9.1" back if they aren't. That way my snakes only have to worry about the torpedoes and the big gun. Even using aether-gold that's only going to kill 3-4 snakes on average.

A lot of KO players can miss this, but they don't have to pull the alpha turn one

 

On 1/31/2021 at 7:31 AM, Boar said:

So how are you going to shot twice in first turn then?

Nevermind I didn't know that teleport works in Hero phase

 

The teleport wars!

 

XD.