AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Gauche]

3 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

I found that Arcane Tome on a khemist seems more versatile for the unbind + mystic shield for an all-comers list approach.

Yep, so I figure maximize that which is good.  Did a game vs. Maggotkin tonight and tabled the opponent, maxing every turn and gaining my grand strategy, losing only 2 x 10 arkanauts and 1 khemist.  He took Rotigus, GUO x 2, 50 plaguebearers, 4 pusgoyles and was summoning plaguebearers around.  Best seemed to be the foot thunderers that I charged into combat to set up for next turn with all out attack, the +1 mixed weapon bonus, and +1 wound rolls triumph with khemist rr1 to wound.  2 units of foot thunderers in combat with a block of plaguebearers that are tagged to be -1 hit rolls going into all out defense for 3+ save thunderers allowed them to survive. 

This list is extremely good imo, but I need to practice with it more.

Turn 1: He out-dropped me so I deployed Arkanauts far enough back to where I could run 6" and get center objectives as needed if he did indeed give first, I then did my pre game alpha beast pack normal move to fly high to far end of board where I was in range of Rotigus and a block of 20 plaguebearers and a 10 block, but bunched together near terrain so charging would result in a Last Word and Unleash Hell, with Rotigus at a further charge distance.  He went first and nabbed the objectives.  I countered with a hero phase move of the battering ram IC, triumph buff an IC, disembarked the thunderers near obj and within range of Rotigus and the PB squads, all-out attack and inspired on the IC to help down Rotigus, and fired everything else into the PBs on foot, charging onto the objective that had 1 PB left to take it from him. 

Turn 2: I then double turned, re-embarked into the ICs, flew high to the opposite end of the board, moved up the arkanauts to fire and charge into the remaining PBs where the thunderers weakened them (arkanauts failed so many rolls), but all-out defense and survived, as the ICs and Thunderers pecked away at the super-buffed GUO general, leaving 2 wounds or so for an IC battering ram charge and bomb-drop to take the other objs.  He countered with some pusgoyle action and summoning, taking out an arkanaut unit.

Turn 3: I was given priority as he burned an objective (which was smart as I barely maxed this turn), disembarked the foot thunderers, took out the remaining GUO and some PBs after 1 IC flew high back to the other end to pressure an enemy home objective, charged the Thunderers into another 20 man of daemons with khemist (they were hitting poorly at this point), and arkanauts took mid.  He countered with pusgoyle move and charge and some piddly plaguebearer hits.

Turn 4: I got priority and flew high IC for the far end remaining obj, killed all remaining PBs with all-out attack and inspired Thunderers that were tagged in combat with the remaining PBs and unloaded into the pusgoyles.  Charged in my khemist and remaining arkanauts into pusgoyles in mid to tie them up as I held far ends and he was left with a few models in mid.

Turn 5: He won priority which didn't help much at this point as he was able to take out the khemist and second unit of arkanauts in mid.  I then responded with a tabling blow and held all objectives.

We both maxed our turns on 1-3, and 4-5 I was able to pull the lead and deny points.  His summoning did work, as did his key burning of an objective that I held, since the priority objective that counted as 2 was one that he was able to snag, along with 1 more for holding 3/5 technically.  Picking proper secondaries such as destroying key units initially is important, as the mobility ones we can make up later.  Ended 29-16, my favor.

Key points to take away were:

- Arcane Tome for the unbind prevented his mystic shield, and kept one up on a squad of Thunderers and IC that I was aiming to charge into combat

-Foot thunderers are gross in terms of damage output for their cost, especially if in combat and with buffs

-2 Ironclads that can place shots is super key

-Combination of hero phase movement and a movement phase disembark adds so much to the list's effectiveness

-Pusgoyles are actually very useful now

-New daemon locus for +1 save simply for being near a daemon hero for nurgle with the -1 hit on PBs made them pretty tanky unless you focus down the hero

Although Mhornar and Zon are my favorite, I feel like this will be my go-to for events until an inevitable FAQ that makes alpha beast pack a "move up to d6"

I've been playing Barak-Nar so Unbinds are not something I lack, for other SkyPorts I agree the Tome is very good. That and a Navigator will get in there very nicely.

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs:
Aether-Khemist (90) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Collector
- Artefact: Staff of Ocular Optimisation
Aether-Khemist (90) in Battle Regiment
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270) in Battle Regiment
- 2x Aetheric Fumigators
- 2x Decksweepers
- 2x Aethercannons
- 2x Grundstok Mortars
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270) in Battle Regiment
- 2x Aetheric Fumigators
- 2x Decksweepers
- 2x Aethercannons
- 2x Grundstok Mortars
- Reinforced x 1
Arkanaut Ironclad (490) in Alpha-Beast Pack
- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word
Arkanaut Ironclad (490) in Alpha-Beast Pack
- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Dealbreaker' Battle Ram

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116

I love that list and your battle report!! Keep up the good work!!

[stratigo]

The limitation of double ironclad is you can't really do that and a battleboat super easily

[Beliman]

So, I was looking for a Bombclad list (just for fun, not sure how good could it be):
 

Quote

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin
- Grand Strategy: Vendetta
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Aether-Khemist (90) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Collector
- Artefact: Staff of Ocular Optimisation
Aetheric Navigator (95) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Aether-Khemist (90) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Caustic Anatomiser
Ellania and Ellathor, Eclipsian Warsages (285) in Command Entourage

Battleline
20 x Arkanaut Company (200) in Battle Regiment
- 2x Skypikes
- 2x Light Skyhooks
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns

Units
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270) in Battle Regiment
- 2x Aetheric Fumigators
- 2x Decksweepers
- 2x Aethercannons
- 2x Grundstok Mortars
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Arkanaut Ironclad (490) in Battle Regiment
- Main Gun: Great Skyhook
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Dealbreaker' Battle Ram

Core Battalions
Battle Regiment
Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

So, the main thing is to deploy as far as I can my Ironclad+Ellaria&Ellathor and cast Arcane Bolt (khemist) and Metamorfosis (Ellaria&Ellathor). Use Zilfin's footnote and try to do as much dmg I can (4 drops).
Charging an objective means Mortal Wounds from the Battleram, 1D3 from Stomp (Monster) before they can Unleash Hell. At the begining of fighting phase, Bomb racks for another 1D3mw (2+ if full wounds), 1D3mw with Arcane Bolt and 1 mw for each 5+ for every model within 6" (Caustic Anatomiser).

What do you think? Bury it before someone gets hurt?

[Magnild]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

The limitation of double ironclad is you can't really do that and a battleboat super easily

Battle boat? You don’t have too much issue getting a battering ram in range.  Unload the crew and get the boat ready for a charge.  Having the output and mobility of 2 ironclads is a great asset.

[Magnild]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

So, I was looking for a Bombclad list (just for fun, not sure how good could it be):
 

So, the main thing is to deploy as far as I can my Ironclad+Ellaria&Ellathor and cast Arcane Bolt (khemist) and Metamorfosis (Ellaria&Ellathor). Use Zilfin's footnote and try to do as much dmg I can (4 drops).
Charging an objective means Mortal Wounds from the Battleram, 1D3 from Stomp (Monster) before they can Unleash Hell. At the begining of fighting phase, Bomb racks for another 1D3mw (2+ if full wounds), 1D3mw with Arcane Bolt and 1 mw for each 5+ for every model within 6" (Caustic Anatomiser).

What do you think? Bury it before someone gets hurt?

Looks interesting.  Relies on a lot of charges from the heroes and casts to get off.  The hook is nice for the bonus but the output I found didn’t do as well for me in comparison with the sky cannon.  The 10 mixed loadout will be on foot, yes?  The lumineth hero seems like it would be relatively slow to get in combat but can keep behind the screen and if you can keep safe for most of the game can do alright I suppose.  The Anatomizer is neat but not sure about your meta but I’m finding more monsters, heroes and elite units running about.  Give it a shot.

[stratigo]

2 hours ago, Magnild said:

Battle boat? You don’t have too much issue getting a battering ram in range.  Unload the crew and get the boat ready for a charge.  Having the output and mobility of 2 ironclads is a great asset.

Admiral and a couple (or more) Endrinmasters in a boat

[Magnild]

15 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Admiral and a couple (or more) Endrinmasters in a boat

Yeah honestly that doesn’t seem as great and doesn’t play to strengths of a double IC Zilfin list.  Seems cool against something like Thryng where you can get Rr1 hit in melee easier.

[Gauche]

I've going to try this in a few games this weekend:

Barak-Nar

3x Endrinmasters (One General, one w/ Aether-Rune)

2x Ironclad w/ Cannons (Last Word on one)

10x Arkanauts

2x10 Thunderers w/ 2x All Special Weapons

3x Aetherwings

 

Running the math the Aether-Khemist isn't that great for this list and if the Thunderers start taking hits he falls off more. Instead I wanted the healing/melee. You can also fit it into a three drop with Alpha Beast Pack and Battle Regiment. Not sure if it's the best way to run it but it looks okay on paper, just threat overload.

[Magnild]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

I've going to try this in a few games this weekend:

Barak-Nar

3x Endrinmasters (One General, one w/ Aether-Rune)

2x Ironclad w/ Cannons (Last Word on one)

10x Arkanauts

2x10 Thunderers w/ 2x All Special Weapons

3x Aetherwings

 

Running the math the Aether-Khemist isn't that great for this list and if the Thunderers start taking hits he falls off more. Instead I wanted the healing/melee. You can also fit it into a three drop with Alpha Beast Pack and Battle Regiment. Not sure if it's the best way to run it but it looks okay on paper, just threat overload.

Looks good.  Nice wizard counters.  I like Khemist for when I all out attack and inspire a unit.  Adds that extra bit of punch on the multi damage weapons.  3 endrinmaster swinging out of an ironclad can get some nice MW out.

[Gauche]

30 minutes ago, Magnild said:

Looks good.  Nice wizard counters.  I like Khemist for when I all out attack and inspire a unit.  Adds that extra bit of punch on the multi damage weapons.  3 endrinmaster swinging out of an ironclad can get some nice MW out.

Yeah Khemists aren't bad by any means, I just had to cut some muscle along with fat. At the end of the day I find the melee and healing more valuable along with trying to get some early CP through Heroes. I've also toyed with taking a Kraken-Eater, punting Objectives is super valuable for KO and I typically find myself doing almost nothing with my Heroic Actions. I don't think it's a better option overall but I may give it some table time when I can.

Basically the list would be:

- Ironclad

-1x10 Thunderers

- Aetherwings

+ Kraken-Eater

+ Endrinmaster (4 Total)

+ 10 Arkanauts

+ Admiral

Definitely a very different list. Still enough shooting to pick up 1-2 medium units a turn but the melee is cranked up to 11. Barak-Nar nullifies losing the CP from the Mercenary Gargant, the Ironclad becomes a massive melee threat, it has to die before I get a Turn or it heals a billion. Gargant can do TFH/Recovery although the list becomes more CP Hungry since he wants AoA/AoD depending. Maybe just AoD with its Mercenary ability, depends on the situation. Might be something I just take for fun games because two Ironclads is very frustrating for almost every army to play around, lots of standing on Objectives and rolling Saves.

[Magnild]

2 hours ago, Gauche said:

Yeah Khemists aren't bad by any means, I just had to cut some muscle along with fat. At the end of the day I find the melee and healing more valuable along with trying to get some early CP through Heroes. I've also toyed with taking a Kraken-Eater, punting Objectives is super valuable for KO and I typically find myself doing almost nothing with my Heroic Actions. I don't think it's a better option overall but I may give it some table time when I can.

Basically the list would be:

- Ironclad

-1x10 Thunderers

- Aetherwings

+ Kraken-Eater

+ Endrinmaster (4 Total)

+ 10 Arkanauts

+ Admiral

Definitely a very different list. Still enough shooting to pick up 1-2 medium units a turn but the melee is cranked up to 11. Barak-Nar nullifies losing the CP from the Mercenary Gargant, the Ironclad becomes a massive melee threat, it has to die before I get a Turn or it heals a billion. Gargant can do TFH/Recovery although the list becomes more CP Hungry since he wants AoA/AoD depending. Maybe just AoD with its Mercenary ability, depends on the situation. Might be something I just take for fun games because two Ironclads is very frustrating for almost every army to play around, lots of standing on Objectives and rolling Saves.

I’ve always found kraken eater to be a bit sub par when they’re not counting as 30 models.  The damage output is lower which isn’t usually an issue in a taker tribe when you have a few megas kicking them around.  I have a Thryng list with my magmadroths in it as coalition, but singling out their monsters while not giving up that extra point has actually made a difference now that it’s easier to score your battle tactic secondary for the turn.  You lose that 1 x 500pt monster against a monster based list, you just gave up some points to them.  I’ll have to try with more monsters but to be honest, lists that habe a more monster-dominant setup should fare better than taking just 1 is all that I’m saying (especially if you cannot give it the amulet).

[Gauche]

21 minutes ago, Magnild said:

I’ve always found kraken eater to be a bit sub par when they’re not counting as 30 models.  The damage output is lower which isn’t usually an issue in a taker tribe when you have a few megas kicking them around.  I have a Thryng list with my magmadroths in it as coalition, but singling out their monsters while not giving up that extra point has actually made a difference now that it’s easier to score your battle tactic secondary for the turn.  You lose that 1 x 500pt monster against a monster based list, you just gave up some points to them.  I’ll have to try with more monsters but to be honest, lists that habe a more monster-dominant setup should fare better than taking just 1 is all that I’m saying (especially if you cannot give it the amulet).

Yeah I think it's a more for fun unit. For whatever it's worth I haven't found anything that says you can't give it an Artifact. The FAQ makes it clear they're not Allies, they're Mercenaries, and nothing I've read in the SoB, FAQs, or Core Rules say Mercenaries can't have Universal Enhancements. If there is and I missed it I'd like to know though. My local FB Group found nothing.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 minute ago, Gauche said:

Yeah I think it's a more for fun unit. For whatever it's worth I haven't found anything that says you can't give it an Artifact. The FAQ makes it clear they're not Allies, they're Mercenaries, and nothing I've read in the SoB, FAQs, or Core Rules say Mercenaries can't have Universal Enhancements. If there is and I missed it I'd like to know though. My local FB Group found nothing.

It's a named Leader that is unique, so yes, I'd imagine you wouldn't be able to give them an enhancement artifact.

[Beliman]

Yep. No artifacts for named characters. That's the deal when you take them.

Edit: Mega-Gargant Mercenaries are not Named Characters even if I think that they can't take any Artifact!

With how awesome are CPs in 3.0, I don't know if I want a Mercenary. Maybe Gotrek can do the same?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Beliman
Edit

[Thorstine]

I just can't get past Gotrek being a near auto include due to needing something which can deal with the 2+ nigh unreadable heroes that are kicking around (Nagash / Archaeon etc).

[Btimmy]

I think gotrek outclasses the mega gargant in almost every possible scenario. The only downside is gotreks movement. I don't necessarily think he is an auto-include, but his stocks are certainly on the rise given the smaller board size and increasing important impact of mortal wounds now that heros and units have easy access to rend negating +1/2/3 armor saves. 

[Magnild]

Yeah I’m not a huge fan of adding Gotrek for a few reasons (slow, easily avoided now with redeploy and how fast the flying monster pieces are).  I haven’t seen too many people have an issue with avoiding gotrek, especially if Archaon knows a double turn is coming or not.  It seems like you avoid Archaon, or you go all-in.  The 20 foot thunderer and double ironclad list with battering ram should take him out if he has a +1 save but if he does finest hour and all out defense you’re better off not bothering and just aim for the rest of the army.  

[Beliman]

19 minutes ago, Magnild said:

Yeah I’m not a huge fan of adding Gotrek for a few reasons (slow, easily avoided now with redeploy and how fast the flying monster pieces are).  I haven’t seen too many people have an issue with avoiding gotrek, especially if Archaon knows a double turn is coming or not.  It seems like you avoid Archaon, or you go all-in.  The 20 foot thunderer and double ironclad list with battering ram should take him out if he has a +1 save but if he does finest hour and all out defense you’re better off not bothering and just aim for the rest of the army.  

I'm a bit scared to face Archaon (I already played with him and it was a painful experience). Half of Archaon's allegiance has something that gives +1 to save, with AoD, Finest Hour (if needed) and Mystic Shield.

Maybe Gotrek is the duardin that I need. Archaon is faster, but needs to be inside of some bubbles and maybe I can use that in my favour. 

[Magnild]

56 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I'm a bit scared to face Archaon (I already played with him and it was a painful experience). Half of Archaon's allegiance has something that gives +1 to save, with AoD, Finest Hour (if needed) and Mystic Shield.

Maybe Gotrek is the duardin that I need. Archaon is faster, but needs to be inside of some bubbles and maybe I can use that in my favour. 

Yeah and praying for a double may not even be a good idea since a good s2d player will prophesy and plan addordingly.  He should cost more.

[Gauche]

The Mega-Gargant is definitely fun but nowhere is he a named character, otherwise SoB couldn't give any of their models Artifacts either. He can take an Artifact just fine. I agree Gotrek is better, I just need a not-so-competitive list as well.

As for Gotrek, he's still too slow to work. In some Missions he's fine but in others you'll spend three Turns just getting him around. He also just dies to massed missile attacks so Cities, LRL, KO, DoT, and a few more armies will just nuke him if they want to. Now he's not hard to hide being so small of a model but that may dictate where he can go.

Double Ironclad felt very good. Went against Skaven and picked up Thanquol, two WLCs, an Archwarlock, a Bombadier, and 5 Acolytes on Turn 1 even with fairly poor dice rolling on my part. Thunderers didn't get out either so could have been a tad more damage. It was so nice not having the useless Frigate and I didn't miss the Khemists much. I really wish I had another Hero but three Endrinmasters is a good enough of a Battle Boat to put into Battleline and such.

[Boar]

39 minutes ago, Gauche said:

The Mega-Gargant is definitely fun but nowhere is he a named character, otherwise SoB couldn't give any of their models Artifacts either.

SoB cannot take those named Gargants, those mercenaries are different from generic ones.

[Beliman]

I think that @Gauche is partly right.

The mega-Gargants mercenaries have special rules all that  stuff, but they are not named/unique characters:

Quote

To include a Mega-Gargant mercenary in your army, you must first pick which Mega-Gargant mercenary your army will hire from pages 73-75. Any army can include a Mega-Gargant mercenary, not just Sons of Behemat armies.

...

Mega-Gargant mercenaries gain the MERCENARY keyword. MEGAGARGANT MERCENARY units are treated as part of your army, except that they are not included when working out your army’s allegiance, and can therefore be part of a different Grand Alliance or faction from the rest of your army.
In addition, a MEGA-GARGANT MERCENARY unit cannot be the army’s general, and cannot use or benefit from your army’s
allegiance abilities.

I'm not sure that the Universal Enhancements are part of each Allegiance Abilities, but if that's the case, you couldn't give them any Enhancement.

 

[Gauche]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

I think that @Gauche is partly right.

The mega-Gargants mercenaries have special rules all that  stuff, but they are not named/unique characters:

I'm not sure that the Universal Enhancements are part of each Allegiance Abilities, but if that's the case, you couldn't give them any Enhancement.

 

We determined that nothing says they are, they just exist in the void. I just got tired of people on here shouting me down when they didn't read the relevant rules. : /

[Beliman]

18 minutes ago, Gauche said:

We determined that nothing says they are, they just exist in the void. I just got tired of people on here shouting me down when they didn't read the relevant rules. : /

After 30 mins talking about mercenaris, I think that they are Allied units. Let me explain:

All three "Mercenaries" are not named characters (Designer's note even suggest that you can change their name) and the rules talk about "Mega-Gargant mercenaries", but there isn't anything specific in Core Book or GHB2021 that says what it is a Mercenary (only talks about Allies). So we only have the Mercenary Keyword and the Mercenary Ability for all Mega-Gargants in the Sons battletomes. Still, there isn't any problem to play with them.

But there is more, all three Mega-Gargant Mercenaries can ignore the max points for Allied Units and Mercenary Units, but the Pitched Battle (GHB2021) doesn't have any points for Mercenary Units, so you couldn't take any of them unless they are some type of Allied units (with their own "unique" Mercenary rules, as I said before).

So, if they are Mercenary Units, they can't be used in Pitched Battles (GHB2021) BUT if they are Allied Units, they can't take any Enhancement.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Beliman