AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[jhamslam]

14 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Tried this variation of my Anvilstrike out last night:

Anvils

Incantor (General, Halo)
Veritant (Translocation)
Azyros (Artifact)
Heraldor

Libs
Libs
Libs

Evos x10
Longstrikes x9
Hurricanes x3
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
Aetherwings

1990/2000

Initially, I thought losing the 5 man Evo unit would hurt a lot, and that 3 Hurricanes wouldn't do too much. But it turns out, 3 units of Aetherwings can just shut down basically an entire board's worth of movement/charging for 150 points, and that's pretty darn valuable. The Hurricanes didn't perform too bad, just weight of dice and averaging out 7-8 saves, so they're fine, but the ability to spread out the Aetherwing countercharge instead of having to huddle around just the Longstrikes makes them extremely worth their points. 

This version feels much more controlling than before, even without the potential extra damage from the second Evo unit. It just feels like playing mono-Blue control in MtG:

"Can I charge?"
No, I have birds.
"Can I buff with my Hero?"
No, I remove them.
"Can I at least move?"
You can move wherever I'm not blocking with birds or Liberators.

Quick primer for me on how to use the birds best? Pleeease?

Edited June 6, 2019 by jhamslam

[Requizen]

15 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Quick primer for me on how to use the birds best? Pleeease?

It's really depends on the opponent and their build. You'll have to make some of those decisions on the fly, but here's a couple quick tips:

• When you do the countercharge against a unit, the best outcome is to tag a single model at only 3", so even after pile ins they're not getting more than a couple guys fighting. If your Aetherwing unit survives the countercharge, you're in an insanely good spot.
• When tagging monsters, remember that they can rotate that big base of theirs to potentially even pull other units in range. If possible, tag them on the far side of your other units by moving around or over the monster with the move. 
• Remember that per the FAQ, if a model is equidistant between two models, it can't move during the pile in unless it ends closer to both units than it started. If you use two Aetherwing units and place both at 2.9" from a unit on opposite sides, they're stuck unless they have a 3" weapon/ability. You can use this to "pincer" big monsters and prevent them from getting extra movement or even dealing damage. (This will lose you friends)
• If the opponent has no shooting and minimal Fly units, you can be very aggressive with positioning. Remember there is a 3" 'bubble' around units where enemies can't move, so even those 3 models can create a lot of space where the opponent can't go, especially two units next to each other or one unit next to impassable terrain. 
• Against an opponent with one or two big threats, like FEC with Terrorgheists (most people are only running 2), castling up and intercepting multiple times can prevent any damage from reaching you before your turn, which almost nullifies alpha strike potential.
• Against an opponent with lower speed and no deep striking that has to walk forward (such as Khorne, some DoK, Gitz, etc), keeping the birds up in the sky and dropping down reactively can be a very powerful move. It'll force them into awkward movements in early turns, and lets you deploy the Raptors + Birds in the best place to shut off movement and charges.

In general, I've found that keeping the Longstrikes off the board is a hard call to make. You lose out on the potential T1 double shot, but it makes your opponent extremely afraid for their important Heroes and prevents any sort of Alpha Strike shenaniganry from ruining your early game plans. I think it's generally worthwhile, unless you know for sure they're safe from anything on Turn 1.

[jhamslam]

4 minutes ago, Requizen said:

It's really depends on the opponent and their build. You'll have to make some of those decisions on the fly, but here's a couple quick tips:

• When you do the countercharge against a unit, the best outcome is to tag a single model at only 3", so even after pile ins they're not getting more than a couple guys fighting. If your Aetherwing unit survives the countercharge, you're in an insanely good spot.
• When tagging monsters, remember that they can rotate that big base of theirs to potentially even pull other units in range. If possible, tag them on the far side of your other units by moving around or over the monster with the move. 
• Remember that per the FAQ, if a model is equidistant between two models, it can't move during the pile in unless it ends closer to both units than it started. If you use two Aetherwing units and place both at 2.9" from a unit on opposite sides, they're stuck unless they have a 3" weapon/ability. You can use this to "pincer" big monsters and prevent them from getting extra movement or even dealing damage. (This will lose you friends)
• If the opponent has no shooting and minimal Fly units, you can be very aggressive with positioning. Remember there is a 3" 'bubble' around units where enemies can't move, so even those 3 models can create a lot of space where the opponent can't go, especially two units next to each other or one unit next to impassable terrain. 
• Against an opponent with one or two big threats, like FEC with Terrorgheists (most people are only running 2), castling up and intercepting multiple times can prevent any damage from reaching you before your turn, which almost nullifies alpha strike potential.
• Against an opponent with lower speed and no deep striking that has to walk forward (such as Khorne, some DoK, Gitz, etc), keeping the birds up in the sky and dropping down reactively can be a very powerful move. It'll force them into awkward movements in early turns, and lets you deploy the Raptors + Birds in the best place to shut off movement and charges.

In general, I've found that keeping the Longstrikes off the board is a hard call to make. You lose out on the potential T1 double shot, but it makes your opponent extremely afraid for their important Heroes and prevents any sort of Alpha Strike shenaniganry from ruining your early game plans. I think it's generally worthwhile, unless you know for sure they're safe from anything on Turn 1.

Jesus that third one is incredible never thought of it that way. They can only charge not move normally or pile in. Isnt unit coherency for the aetherwings itself a problem with this one or any of em? Might keep this in mind for the ultra competitive tournaments.

Yeah ive experimented with the longstrike deepstrike question. Against khorne, BoC , Nurgle, Deepkin or sometimes DoK ill just keep em on the ground since nothing can get to em fast enough. Against FEC depending on how many gheists they have i keep em up in the sky. It either forces all the terrorgheists to make a beeline at once for the few units on ground or it forces them into awkward maneuvers backwards once they get afraid of the longstrikes.

 

[jhamslam]

12 minutes ago, Requizen said:

It's really depends on the opponent and their build. You'll have to make some of those decisions on the fly, but here's a couple quick tips:

• When you do the countercharge against a unit, the best outcome is to tag a single model at only 3", so even after pile ins they're not getting more than a couple guys fighting. If your Aetherwing unit survives the countercharge, you're in an insanely good spot.
• When tagging monsters, remember that they can rotate that big base of theirs to potentially even pull other units in range. If possible, tag them on the far side of your other units by moving around or over the monster with the move. 
• Remember that per the FAQ, if a model is equidistant between two models, it can't move during the pile in unless it ends closer to both units than it started. If you use two Aetherwing units and place both at 2.9" from a unit on opposite sides, they're stuck unless they have a 3" weapon/ability. You can use this to "pincer" big monsters and prevent them from getting extra movement or even dealing damage. (This will lose you friends)
• If the opponent has no shooting and minimal Fly units, you can be very aggressive with positioning. Remember there is a 3" 'bubble' around units where enemies can't move, so even those 3 models can create a lot of space where the opponent can't go, especially two units next to each other or one unit next to impassable terrain. 
• Against an opponent with one or two big threats, like FEC with Terrorgheists (most people are only running 2), castling up and intercepting multiple times can prevent any damage from reaching you before your turn, which almost nullifies alpha strike potential.
• Against an opponent with lower speed and no deep striking that has to walk forward (such as Khorne, some DoK, Gitz, etc), keeping the birds up in the sky and dropping down reactively can be a very powerful move. It'll force them into awkward movements in early turns, and lets you deploy the Raptors + Birds in the best place to shut off movement and charges.

In general, I've found that keeping the Longstrikes off the board is a hard call to make. You lose out on the potential T1 double shot, but it makes your opponent extremely afraid for their important Heroes and prevents any sort of Alpha Strike shenaniganry from ruining your early game plans. I think it's generally worthwhile, unless you know for sure they're safe from anything on Turn 1.

so you CAN move your guy within 3 ? deny them from charging anything else entirely?

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, jhamslam said:

so you CAN move your guy within 3 ? deny them from charging anything else entirely?

Yes. The only time you can't move within 3" is during the movement phase.

[Sactownbri]

On 6/5/2019 at 6:03 AM, PJetski said:

Personally this is what I would like to see for Stormcast in GHB19:

It's mostly point cost reductions, but that's because many of our units are really underperforming and battalions are massively overpriced for the units they need and the bonuses they provide.

I always get nervous about across the board point reductions since every faction is leveled for all other factions at the time of release. If something like this occurred it would have to resonate across all other factions too. That would be bigger than anything GW has done to date short of the original AoS GHB that established all the points to begin with. 

[Requizen]

36 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Yes. The only time you can't move within 3" is during the movement phase.

Or rather, the only time you can't move within 3" is when you make a normal move as if it were the Movement Phase. For example, abilities that let you make a move as if it were the Movement Phase in the Hero Phase (Kunnin Rukk, Deathmarch, etc) still cannot move within 3".

Watchful Guardians is not a normal move, and therefore ignores those rules. 

42 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Jesus that third one is incredible never thought of it that way. They can only charge not move normally or pile in. Isnt unit coherency for the aetherwings itself a problem with this one or any of em? Might keep this in mind for the ultra competitive tournaments.

 

If you have 2+ units of Aetherwings, no. Unit A tags the Dragon 2.9" away on the right side. Unit B tags the Dragon 2.9" away on the left side. The Dragon cannot move in such a way that it ends up closer to both units than it already is (oval bases mess with this a bit since they can rotate, however), so it can't make a pile in. 

Except for whatever reason Terrorgheists have 3" Jaw attacks so they can still fight, which is really stupid.

[jhamslam]

1 minute ago, Requizen said:

Or rather, the only time you can't move within 3" is when you make a normal move as if it were the Movement Phase. For example, abilities that let you make a move as if it were the Movement Phase in the Hero Phase (Kunnin Rukk, Deathmarch, etc) still cannot move within 3".

Watchful Guardians is not a normal move, and therefore ignores those rules. 

If you have 2+ units of Aetherwings, no. Unit A tags the Dragon 2.9" away on the right side. Unit B tags the Dragon 2.9" away on the left side. The Dragon cannot move in such a way that it ends up closer to both units than it already is (oval bases mess with this a bit since they can rotate, however), so it can't make a pile in. 

Except for whatever reason Terrorgheists have 3" Jaw attacks so they can still fight, which is really stupid.

Oh yeah believe me ive been had by that maw before, he reached over to hit a hero behind a line of sequitors. GW just gave everything to that model

[kuroyume]

26 minutes ago, Sactownbri said:

I always get nervous about across the board point reductions since every faction is leveled for all other factions at the time of release. If something like this occurred it would have to resonate across all other factions too.

To be fair, pretty much everything (barring Evocators and maybe Longstrikes) in the Stormcast range is either overpriced or vastly overpriced compared to most other factions.

[jhamslam]

11 minutes ago, kuroyume said:

To be fair, pretty much everything (barring Evocators and maybe Longstrikes) in the Stormcast range is either overpriced or vastly overpriced compared to most other factions.

id argue that if FEC , Skaven and Fyreslayers are the true new power level, then Evocators are fine. SCE has been downgraded to C tier as per honestwargamer despite them

[stato]

37 minutes ago, Requizen said:

If you have 2+ units of Aetherwings, no. Unit A tags the Dragon 2.9" away on the right side. Unit B tags the Dragon 2.9" away on the left side. The Dragon cannot move in such a way that it ends up closer to both units than it already is (oval bases mess with this a bit since they can rotate, however), so it can't make a pile in. 

I pointed out this would happen when GW decided 2 models equidistant would pin (rather than the more obvious choice of decide which is closer, like every other time a GW rule has 2 models equidistant).  Everyone went ballistic and claimed you could never measure 2.9", and even if you moved them in place and stated 'these are 2.9" away, ok?'.   So id caution against this strategy or you may have issue with your opponents.

[Chumphammer]

Can you take Aetherwings on their own, or do you need to have a parent unit?

[Requizen]

1 minute ago, stato said:

I pointed out this would happen when GW decided 2 models equidistant would pin (rather than the more obvious choice of decide which is closer, like every other time a GW rule has 2 models equidistant).  Everyone went ballistic and claimed you could never measure 2.9", and even if you moved them in place and stated 'these are 2.9" away, ok?'.   So id caution against this strategy or you may have issue with your opponents.

True, but at some point you and your opponent have to have some discussions on intent when moving/placing models. 

That, or you laser cut a 2.9" measure stick (or trim a bit of a 3" one) and show them exactly how far things are placed. If you use a specific tool for the job, it's very hard for them to argue your placement.

[Requizen]

2 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Can you take Aetherwings on their own, or do you need to have a parent unit?

They can be taken as a unit, but they don't get to move in the enemy Charge phase without a unit of Raptors nearby. On their own, they can be zoning units, however.

[Chumphammer]

1 minute ago, Requizen said:

They can be taken as a unit, but they don't get to move in the enemy Charge phase without a unit of Raptors nearby. On their own, they can be zoning units, however.

Yeah, Im new to AoS (but not Warhammer) and thinking of stormcast for my 1st main army out of using older mixed Aelves.

I like the idea of 3 units of 3 Aetherwings as units to help slow the enermy (like great eagle lte) 

[PJetski]

I find 2 units of Aetherwings is enough and I value a 2nd Incantor more than Hurricanes. I really like extra control of Aetherwings that you get with a squad of Hurricanes, but the second dispel scroll, spirit flasks, and spell cast is worth much more to me.

[Requizen]

16 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I find 2 units of Aetherwings is enough and I value a 2nd Incantor more than Hurricanes. I really like extra control of Aetherwings that you get with a squad of Hurricanes, but the second dispel scroll, spirit flasks, and spell cast is worth much more to me.

Yeah I definitely don't think one is purely "better" than the other. At this point it's a bit of preferential flex picks, I like a harder zone control setup but two auto-dispels per game is honestly disgusting too.

[PJetski]

At my last tournament I faced 3 Skaven lists in a row. I was very glad to have 2 dispel scrolls for their vortex combo

[jhamslam]

15 minutes ago, PJetski said:

At my last tournament I faced 3 Skaven lists in a row. I was very glad to have 2 dispel scrolls for their vortex combo

How was your record? its my toughest matchup to date, ive managed to beat gristlegore handily with your advice

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

How was your record? its my toughest matchup to date, ive managed to beat gristlegore handily with your advice

I am undefeated playing Anvilstrike in 2018 and 2019

[jhamslam]

7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I am undefeated playing Anvilstrike in 2018 and 2019

Thats great man. I guess i need to learn target prioritization better. Skaven just have so much 

[ledha]

32 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I am undefeated playing Anvilstrike in 2018 and 2019

What list are you using ?

[PJetski]

51 minutes ago, ledha said:

What list are you using ?

I have posted it before in this thread

2x Incantor
Veritant
Azyros
Heraldor

3x5 Liberator
1x10 Evocators
1x9 Longstrikes
2x5 Aetherwings

Geminids
Quicksilver Swords

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

I have posted it before in this thread

2x Incantor
Veritant
Azyros
Heraldor

3x5 Liberator
1x10 Evocators
1x9 Longstrikes
2x5 Aetherwings

Geminids
Quicksilver Swords

Although I don't play the same army, I've taken some very heavy shooting lists over the past two years, and one of the worst matchups for me has been a very heavy eels deepkin army. The main reason being that I cannot shoot anything but the closest target, and they have cover and ignore rend on some of their units. Have you played against this sort of army, and if so how have you dealt with it? (Serious question as this matchup felt almost like a hard counter to me, and I had a lot of trouble seeing a way out of it.)

[PJetski]

48 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Although I don't play the same army, I've taken some very heavy shooting lists over the past two years, and one of the worst matchups for me has been a very heavy eels deepkin army. The main reason being that I cannot shoot anything but the closest target, and they have cover and ignore rend on some of their units. Have you played against this sort of army, and if so how have you dealt with it? (Serious question as this matchup felt almost like a hard counter to me, and I had a lot of trouble seeing a way out of it.)

You can't go all-in on shooting - that's why I bring 10 Evocators and a Heraldor.

Idoneth can't sit back and play the attrition game so eventually they must engage you. Let them charge into your liberator screen, then riposte with your Evocators. Idoneth are vulnerable to mortal wounds so Evocators do a great job ripping them apart.