AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Bolty]

Hey guys I have an upcoming tournament in some weeks and I am torn between three list :

List 1 :

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:
Treelord Ancient (360)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony
Branchwych (130)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony
Battlemage (100)*
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Universal Spell Lore: Ghost-mist
- Allies
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)**
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Revenant Seekers (470)**
- Reinforced x 1
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Vengeful Skullroot (60)
*Battle Regiment
**Bounty Hunters

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 114
Drops: 3

Able to put the tree where I need, then branchwych bomb and vengefull skullroot (should be ok with gnarlroot and the season for rerolling one cast), and reliable bonus charge (spite and batthlemage).

List 2 :

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: The Dwellers Below
Branchwych (130)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Revenant Seekers (235)*

Behemoths
Krondspine Incarnate of Ghur (400)*
- Allies

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Vengeful Skullroot (60)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Expert Conquerors

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 3

Really good magic (gnarlroot, reroll season, +1 by krondspine), one big pack of scythe for damage, bonus for charginf (spite) and a anvil (Krondspine). But the Warsong as to create a forest then bomb then vengefull (or dwellerr's bellow) so there can be some distance issue (9" from forest then 18" forest then 9" bomb).

 

List 3:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: The Dwellers Below
Treelord Ancient (360)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)*
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Krondspine Incarnate of Ghur (400)*
- Allies

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Vengeful Skullroot (60)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Expert Conquerors

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 81
Drops: 3
 

Variant from list 2 with the TLA to put the Tree where it is needed and therefore don't have any distance issue but less presence on board.

 

What are your thoughts?

[readercolin]

So I can't say for your list, but can give you some feedback from some of my experimenting.  First off, I have had trouble getting kurnoth hunters locally, and only recently managed to get some, so this experimenting was more "what do I have on hand" for an army that started out as a project army and not anything I was actually serious about playing with (now though I think it may have the chops to be something I try to field rather than just paint).

Here is the list I was messing around with:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Branchwych (130)**
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Warsong Revenant (305)**
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (360)**
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Spirit of Durthu (370)
- Artefact: Greenwood Gladius
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
30 x Dryads (300)*
- Reinforced x 2
20 x Dryads (200)**
- Reinforced x 1
Chronomantic Cogs (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
*Expert Conquerors
**Warlord
Artefact

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 8

I've played 3 games with this list, the first against Flesh Eater Courts (gristlegore with 3 terrorgheists), the second against Soulblight Gravelords (3 squads of blood knights, vampire on zombie dragon and prince vordrai), and the last against skaven (stormfiends and eshin deepstrike list).  My conclusions from these games?

First off, dryads suck.  Sure, if the game becomes about massed blocks of bad attacks (ex. having to deal with pink horror spam), they might be ok, but every single game I played if they got hit by anything they died.  People just don't run chaff, and that is all that dryads are good against.  Maybe if GW had decided to make them "tanky" and also gave them a 4+ or 3+ save, and kept their terrible attack profile they might be useful, but as it is they aren't worth 100 points.  Heck, I'm not sure they would be worth 70 points.  They did a great job of making me regret getting 60 of these...

Next up, tree revenants are... fine.  People are constantly hyping them up and calling them the best galletian veterans, but how it actually works in practice is that you put them down to screen your hammers and then they proceed to die, except your opponent feels good about killing your screen because it technically can actually accomplish something unlike most screens in the game.  But they can't kill anything, and they force you to debate using them as screens because if you can keep them alive then they might be able to do something for you late game, but if you don't screen with them then your actual good targets just die.  Basically, I'm letting my dwarf out and grumbling because they are vastly overhyped online and the only reason they are even in my lists is because dryads suck so much.

Now to the actually good stuff.  The spell bombs.  You may notice how I am actually running a double spellbomb list, with the spellportal to get the second one in place.  How well does this work?  Ehhh.  The problem with the spellbomb is that even with Gnarlroot and the season that gives you a re-roll, they are unreliable. 

In my first game against flesh eater courts, I was able to get both spellbombs to hit near their hero cluster and dish out a bunch of mortal wounds.  However, in their turn they then healed back up, and even though I went again, the spellbomb again failed to kill anything (and again, it was promptly healed back up).  Effectively, even with two spellbombs, they just couldn't accomplish anything.  Also my opponent was able to get into me and kill my casters on their turn 2, so any further contribution was kind of moot.  On the other end of the spectrum, in my second game against soulblight gravelords, the first set of spellbombs killed 3 blood knights, a vampire on foot, and dealt some damage to both vampire lords on zombie dragons.  On my second turn, the second round of spell bombs killed more blood knights, another vampire on foot, and with the help of the treelord's spell killed his general, the vampire on zombie dragon (and after the magic phase was over we called it because my army was untouched, but he had prince vordrai, a squad of 4 blood knights, a squad of 3 blood knights, and a squad of 2 blood knights).  Finally, in my last game against the skaven, my opponent was able to deep strike most of his army, I couldn't get the spell portal near his units, and even with a re-roll on 3d6 the warsong bomb managed to fail to go off, and then he tabled me with the double on turn 2.

Basically, I am trying to say that you shouldn't rely on the warsong bombs to do more than some "nice to have" chip damage and maybe soften some targets up.  But don't build your whole game plan around it (like my list did).

Next, the treelord ancient.  The treelord ancient did his job every game - he put a tree down.  After that, his sum total contribution every game was to shoot once, and he did an average of 3 damage a game, and I used him to cast cogs every game (which you really don't need, but I had spare points in my list so why not).  Is he worth it?  I'm honestly not sure.  Without him, the warsong bomb is even more unreliable, and the 18" limitation for putting down a tree via spell is honestly really restrictive.  Every single game, I had my spell casters behind some sort of screen, and my opponents wanted to close with me, which left me having a lot of trouble placing a tree down with the "outside of 3" from anything" restriction.  Guaranteeing that across the board to threaten the opponent from the start of the game with the warsong is nice.  But is it 360 points nice?  Ehhh...

Finally, Durthu.  Oh boy, durthu was a disappointment.  Game 1, he charged into a terrogheist, unleashed everything he had, got +3 attacks with the greenwood gladius... and dealt a grand total of 10 damage to it.  Note that this was a completely undamaged durthu.  Said terrogheist then proceeded to eat durthu after I forgot to use strike and fade.  Game 2, he contributed nothing, but I don't hold that against him because the spellbombs did all the heavy lifting that game.  And game 3 he died after doing exactly nothing, though again this game it is hard to hold against him because he had nothing to charge turn 1 and I died on the double.

Overall, the above list was amusing to test with, but now that I have my kurnoths, the next time sylvaneth come out for me it will be one of the following two lists:

Combined arms:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony
Treelord Ancient (360)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Spirit of Durthu (370)*
- Artefact: Greenwood Gladius
Arch-Revenant (120)*
10 x Dryads (100)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatbows (460)*
- Reinforced x 1
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
*Warlord
**Expert Conquerors
Artefact

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 8

Stompy Time:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Oakenbrow
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Spirit of Durthu (370)
- General
- Command Trait: Warsinger
- Artefact: Crown of Fell Bowers
Treelord Ancient (360)
The Lady of Vines (325)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
20 x Dryads (200)*
- Reinforced x 1
Treelord (260)*
Treelord (260)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 3

[Lord Krungharr]

See I've had the opposite experience with Durthu and the Treelord Ancient, but I was fielding my Sons of Behemat vs them.  Even with AoD he laid waste to the megagargants handily, and the Ancient survived the whole game and kept causing me to strike last in combat.  I think perhaps the big trees make good teams rather than one on one.  The strike n fade is key though; I need to make remember-sheets for each of my armies.

[Arzalyn]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:11 AM, Bolty said:

What are your thoughts?

I may be a little late in the reply to help with the tournament, but I prefer your first list. I'm not a huge fan of the Ancient, but I prefer him more than the Incarnate. I would suggest you consider trading the wych+ancient for a warsong. You loose the reliable tree, but you get a much better caster.

On 9/12/2022 at 12:06 PM, readercolin said:

People are constantly hyping them up and calling them the best galletian veterans, but how it actually works in practice is that you put them down to screen your hammers and then they proceed to die, except your opponent feels good about killing your screen because it technically can actually accomplish something unlike most screens in the game.  But they can't kill anything, and they force you to debate using them as screens because if you can keep them alive then they might be able to do something for you late game, but if you don't screen with them then your actual good targets just die.

But that is exactly why people call they the best galletian veterans, they are a screen that has a role even after you don't need a screen anymore. Sure you opponent may fell good killing a annoying unit, but it just killed a screen, your actual important units are all alive. With woods + overgrowth terrain and the gossamid/seekers/lancers we have a really good mobility already, you don't need to keep tree-rev alive for this role.

[KarrWolves]

I've not played with the Treelord Ancient yet, but I've experimented a lot with Durthu now.

My list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Season of War: The Dwindling
- Grand Strategy: No Place for the Weak
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony
Spirit of Durthu (370)*
- Artefact: Greenwood Gladius
Battlemage (100)*
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Dryads (100)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)**

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)***
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Revenant Seekers (235)***
5 x Skaeth's Wild Hunt (110)*
- Spell: Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Expert Conquerors
***Bounty Hunters

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 9

Durthu is a gamble. He won some of my games by himself and he did nothing in others. I think his main strength is his ability to teleport even if someone is within 3" of an Overgrown Terrain / Awakened Wyldwood. Also the 3" range and the potential for a ton of damage make your opponent play more defensive than they would otherwise. And the Strike Last is definitely a nice thing to have.

At NoVa, he was definitely the hero of my games 4 and 5:

Game 4: VS Stormcast Eternals on Realmstone Cache
Opponent gives me first, then on his turn drops most of his army (1*4 stormdrake guards and 2*4 tempestors - 1560pts) 9" away, shoots at the screens and makes some 9" charges. He then gets the double, charges the rest of the units in and kills the 2nd line: at this point, I have lost 1000pts and I'm completely surrounded...
I tabled my opponent: Durthu went in and killed the dragons, and then proceeded to clean the rest of the table (with the help of the Warsong and the Seekers).

Game 5: VS Seraphon on Silksteel Nests
Opponent has Kroak and is one of the best Seraphon players in the US: I know before the start I probably can't win since my list is all-in on magic and relies a lot on spells.
I give him first, he kills the Seekers with Purple Sun + Horrorghast (...) and makes some damage here and there. On my turn, I decide to go all in: my only chance to win is to kill Kroak so I send Durthu in using Walk the Hidden Paths (Kroak + his bodyguards were about 18" away from an Overgrown Terrain) - note here that I've been super lucky and managed to cast Spiteswarm Hive and Wildform to give him +5 to charge despite Kroak +4 to unbind. I kill the bodyguards and deal 0 damage to Kroak, but I have the double and finish Kroak. Durthu then dies during my opponent turn (he didn't have any way to Strike and Fade since he was alone in the enemy lines) but he did his job. I still lost by 1 point but at least there was a game.

Ended up 3/1/1 so the list definitely has potential. Also the Sylvaneth list that made it to the top 8 had a Spirit of Durthu as well.

I will play with the same list at another GT next month and see how things go, but I might change the list after that if the meta is too magic heavy (especially with the release of Tzeentch and Lumineths): this list relies a lot on your ability to cast Verdant Blessing and your bonuses to charge, it's not viable if they are constantly unbound. Also with Durthu you have to take Greenwood Gladius so either you have 4+ drops or you don't take the Arcane Tome.

WiP Future List:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Heartwood
- Season of War: The Reaping
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Branchwych (130)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Treesong
Treelord Ancient (360)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Battlemage (100)*
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
6 x Revenant Seekers (470)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Skaeth's Wild Hunt (110)*
- Spell: Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 109
Drops: 1

Despite the number of casts, this list relies way less on your spells: you can put an Awakened Wyldwood wherever you want thanks to the Treelord Ancient, and the Revenant Seekers don't need a teleport to go in thanks to their high movement. The Reaping also helps with the extra 3" for From the Woodland Depths.

I'll need to playtest it more but I think this list is more balanced: your good matchups aren't as good, but your bad matchups are better. The only bad matchup that is worse is against Nighthaunt since you lose the Bounty Hunters battalion and Durthu, but you can't win on all fronts.

[Domize]

Posted this question in Rules as well, but seeing as I have a game tomorrow, it would be great to hear what the Sylvaneth forum has to say too.

So I was watching a Season of War livestreamed battle report of Sylvaneth vs Ironjawz. In it, the commentators were saying that the tournament ruling for Strike and Fade was that it would happen before fight on death eg. Hallowed Knights or Death Frenzy. Video of the comment here.

Looking at the rules, it does say Strike and Fade happens immediately after the attack is finished, which ends when wounds are allocated (13.3.1). Then it says a model is slain once it reaches the wounds allocated, but is not removed until after all wounds are allocated (14.2)

I only ask because in my playgroup we have 3 armies with abilities like this and I play Sylvaneth, and it would be good to know what the general consensus is before it comes up. Definitely feels like an FAQ is needed.

[KarrWolves]

1 hour ago, Domize said:

Posted this question in Rules as well, but seeing as I have a game tomorrow, it would be great to hear what the Sylvaneth forum has to say too.

So I was watching a Season of War livestreamed battle report of Sylvaneth vs Ironjawz. In it, the commentators were saying that the tournament ruling for Strike and Fade was that it would happen before fight on death eg. Hallowed Knights or Death Frenzy. Video of the comment here.

Looking at the rules, it does say Strike and Fade happens immediately after the attack is finished, which ends when wounds are allocated (13.3.1). Then it says a model is slain once it reaches the wounds allocated, but is not removed until after all wounds are allocated (14.2)

I only ask because in my playgroup we have 3 armies with abilities like this and I play Sylvaneth, and it would be good to know what the general consensus is before it comes up. Definitely feels like an FAQ is needed.

A FAQ is definitely needed but when I asked different TOs, they all ruled it as Fight on Death happens before Strike and Fade.

I think the reason is models are slain before the end of the attack sequence (they are only removed after the attack sequence ends).

Attacks => Wounds => Slain models => Fight on Death => Strike and Fade=> Remove models

That's how I would play it as a Sylvaneth player. 

It could be different if there is a Death Frenzy ability that triggers after a unit is destroyed rather than a model slain bit I don't know if that exists.

[Lord Krungharr]

If this Fight on Death happens immediately after they're slain, and Strike and Fade happens immediately after the attacks are resolved, and those effects seem to happen simultaneously, I think it just depends on whose turn it is then?  If it's the trees' turn, they Strike and Fade before Fight on Death, and vice versa on the dead ones' turn.

[Baron Of Dice]

Hey all!  I want to find some feedback on the latest Sylvan dice!  What do we think?  Anything you would change; color, square corner, translucent color added, etc.   Appreciate the feedback in advance!  These are on Baron of Dice.  I am considering a third color combination or just make more of these designs below

[Lord Krungharr]

Looking to write my Dreadwood army list, starting with a core of Drycha and 3x10 Spite-Revenants at the ready.  Not sure what might be good to add to the Outcasts...., wondering if allies or even Gotrek would actually be a good addition.  

Treelord is nice for the strike last monster stomp and Lash and Tangle effect.  I'm thinking at least 1 Branchwych and either Gladewyrm or Spiteswarm Hive.  Any thoughts?  Spite Revs are hit or miss with the MW fishing, but the potential there is much better than with bunches of Dryads I think, especially with a double-strike-n-fade.  Going for the Outcasts killing the enemy general Grand Strategy.

[Frowny]

3 hours ago, Baron Of Dice said:

Hey all!  I want to find some feedback on the latest Sylvan dice!  What do we think?  Anything you would change; color, square corner, translucent color added, etc.   Appreciate the feedback in advance!  These are on Baron of Dice.  I am considering a third color combination or just make more of these designs below

 

They all look beautiful, but I think you might want to work on the readability before committing. The multiple colors and spots already on the bottom 3 make them pretty hard to read at a glance. I can imagine that being pretty annoying to do if you are rolling a lot of dice. 

[Havelocke]

17 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Not sure what might be good to add to the Outcasts...

One thing I think really helps a Dreadwood list is a reinforced unit of Spiterider Lancers. Their strike-first effect allows you to get off both strike-and-fades without getting hit back on the turn you activate your glade ability.

I'd also make sure you get some Tree Revenants into your list. They're always useful. Spiteswarm Hive is also an auto-include for me. I put the popular Spellsinger/Tome/Warsong into my list as my general, and I liked how it worked with the rest of the army. If you did all that, it'd put you at 1950.

Finally, I'd consider blocks of 15 for your Spite Revenants. They'll very rarely all get to attack, but I think it's worth it for the redundant wounds, and you'd rarely be wanting to charge with all three units, anyways.

[KarrWolves]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Dreadwood
- Season of War: The Reaping
- Grand Strategy: Vengeance and Spite
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Treesong
Drycha Hamadreth (335)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Battlemage (100)*
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
15 x Spite-Revenants (315)*
- Reinforced x 2

Units
6 x Spiterider Lancers (420)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Gossamid Archers (220)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Horrorghast (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 112
Drops: 1

Something like that?

[Frowny]

Just played my first.game with the new tome yesterday. What a much better book! It plays like sylvaneth! I have a lot to learn though about positioning.

Some questions

1- why do so many lists use the warding revenant over the branchwych. Their spell is the same. The only perk for the revenant is 2 casts and +1 to casting, but she is also 175 points more.... I used a branchwych with the tome and spell singer and she was my MVP.

2- alarielle seems great but also expensive. I really want to fit in 3 hammers to my list but with her costing so much, it doesn't really seem possible. Any thoughts on this?

3- can hunters always strike and fade if they are on an objective? It seems like yes since they are within range of themselves and count as overgrown?

4- can revenants teleport out of combat?

Thanks!

 

[KarrWolves]

33 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Just played my first.game with the new tome yesterday. What a much better book! It plays like sylvaneth! I have a lot to learn though about positioning.

Some questions

1- why do so many lists use the warding revenant over the branchwych. Their spell is the same. The only perk for the revenant is 2 casts and +1 to casting, but she is also 175 points more.... I used a branchwych with the tome and spell singer and she was my MVP.

2- alarielle seems great but also expensive. I really want to fit in 3 hammers to my list but with her costing so much, it doesn't really seem possible. Any thoughts on this?

3- can hunters always strike and fade if they are on an objective? It seems like yes since they are within range of themselves and count as overgrown?

4- can revenants teleport out of combat?

Thanks!

 

1. As you said it, because of the +1 to cast and the additional cast. He has been the MVP in most of my games.

2. You don't need 3 hammers, 2 is plenty enough, especially since you can use Strike and Fade only once per turn.

3. Yes, but they have to be wholly within 6" of the objective.

4. No, that's instead of a normal move and in combat you can only retreat.

[Frowny]

4 hours ago, KarrWolves said:

 

 

4 hours ago, KarrWolves said:

1. As you said it, because of the +1 to cast and the additional cast. He has been the MVP in most of my games.

Can you explain this more? That's a ton of points for +1 to cast. You could get almost 3 branchwyches for that cost. It's true they don't +1 to cast, but in either gnarlroot or dwindling they get each a reroll for a total of 3 casts all with rerollsblockquote widget

Edited October 5, 2022 by Frowny

[KarrWolves]

23 minutes ago, Frowny said:

 

Can you explain this more? That's a ton of points for +1 to cast. You could get almost 3 branchwyches for that cost. It's true they don't +1 to cast, but in either gnarlroot or dwindling they get each a reroll for a total of 3 casts all with rerollsblockquote widget

+1 to cast is really strong, probably more than you realize: it means more of your spells go off, less of them are unbound, and you get more unbinds: on 3 casts/unbinds, it's amazing.

And with spellsinger, it's really valuable to have 3 spells: you can cast a wyldwood, your warscroll spell and an endless spell for instance through a wyldwood for instance. Your second branchwych will have a very limited range and therefore less utility.

I'm not saying the branchwych is bad, she's really good, but the warsong revenant is amazing.

Edited October 5, 2022 by KarrWolves

[readercolin]

First, @Baron Of Dice - I wouldn't purchase the bottom set of dice (looks translucent with some sort of color inside?) because the color makes them really hard to read.  They are certainly pretty, but if I'm rolling a bunch of dice I don't want to have to look really hard to determine if they hit/wound.  Otherwise, they are very pretty.

On the warsong revenant vs. brancwych.  There are a number of reasons why I take the warsong first over the branchwych.

Firstly, the +1 to cast.  A +1 makes it harder to unbind, makes it easier to cast the non-warscroll spells, and it adds an extra die for the damage roll.

Second, +1 spells.  This means that I may not need the arcane tome on the warsong (though it is certainly a decent idea) if I have a different artifact that I want, or if I want the arcane tome on a different unit.  That being said, having played a few times, I will generally use all 3 spells from the warsong every time, especially because I can start the warsong in an out of the way position which makes it even harder for the enemy to unbind (not that you can't for the branchwych, but it is the advantage of the warsong with spellsinger over sticking the arcane tome on a different unit).

Third, survivability.  The warsong has 2 more wounds AND a 4+ ward.  Basically, a 14 wound unit vs a 5 wound unit.  I still don't want to throw either into combat, because that isn't their role, but especially if the opponent has the ability to throw mortal wounds around or otherwise deal some chip damage, that extra survivability is huge.

None of these things on their own really make the warsong worth it over the branchwych.  However, the combination of those abilities does, and I would have to be really short on points to make my list work to decide to take the branchwych over the warsong revenant.

[Frowny]

I guess I'm pondering alongside alarielle. She is just so many points that it feels harder to justify, and as a 3 cast wizard herself, i don't need the warsong to do all the heavy lifting. Like she can summon the woods for example, or maybe the endless spell since she's at least somewhat up front. 

[Lord Krungharr]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:42 PM, KarrWolves said:

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Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Dreadwood
- Season of War: The Reaping
- Grand Strategy: Vengeance and Spite
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deepwood: Treesong
Drycha Hamadreth (335)*
- Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth
Battlemage (100)*
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)*
15 x Spite-Revenants (315)*
- Reinforced x 2

Units
6 x Spiterider Lancers (420)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Gossamid Archers (220)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Horrorghast (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 112
Drops: 1

Something like that?

Ooh, that's an interesting list.  I am using my 30 old metal Dryads as the Revenants (they look pretty good size on 32mm bases)....I think perhaps I could just use certain poses as Tree-Revs and other more wicked ones as the Spite-Revs, and paint them different colors.  

Haven't looked into the Gossamid Archers at all.  I wouldn't be opposed to taking an allied Steam Tank instead of buying those 😬

[KarrWolves]

8 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Ooh, that's an interesting list.  I am using my 30 old metal Dryads as the Revenants (they look pretty good size on 32mm bases)....I think perhaps I could just use certain poses as Tree-Revs and other more wicked ones as the Spite-Revs, and paint them different colors.  

Haven't looked into the Gossamid Archers at all.  I wouldn't be opposed to taking an allied Steam Tank instead of buying those 😬

You can replace the Gossamid Archers by anithing you'd like, they are not part of the core list: the last 225pts are tech points, I've just put them because they fit nicely and that usually doesn't happen in my Sylvaneths lists (now I want to try this one). Also that makes a very anti-Nighthaunt list, which is pretty nice.

Note that you can get the Echoes of Doom box and sell the Skaven half, meaning you get the Lady of Vines, a Treelord/Durthu, 3x Kurnoth Hunters and 5x Gossamid Archers for quite cheap (but that's pretty expensive if the only thing you want in the box is the archers).

[Frowny]

What have people found is the correct number for the bug riders? On one hand a bigger unit is more likely to be alive for resurrecting and to kill it's target or to make better use of strike and fade. On the other hand, with the giant bases getting all of them into contact and the cost adds up. You also can't then be in multiple places

Is it different for the lancers vs. seekers?

 

[Arzalyn]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

What have people found is the correct number for the bug riders? On one hand a bigger unit is more likely to be alive for resurrecting and to kill it's target or to make better use of strike and fade. On the other hand, with the giant bases getting all of them into contact and the cost adds up. You also can't then be in multiple places

Is it different for the lancers vs. seekers?

 

I heard some mixed opinions so far. In general the base size isn't much of a problem with the 2" reach + 6" pile in. Its more of a matter of what you expect the unit to do.

Lancers are really divisive, some people really like them and some hate them. I generally see them in units of 6 and in bounty hunters. Generally they are used as a strike and fade threat that isn't dependent on teleports+charge bonuses to do their function. Their damage vs no-bounty hunters can be a little lackluster.

Seekers are more common sight of the two. How much depend on what you want them to do:

- units of 3 are a good mobile unit with a ok resilience and work well supporting kurnoths. Just don't expect much damage from them.

- units of 6 are much more self sufficient damage-wise and can stand a punch pretty well. If you want to take seekers as unit by itself I recommend you go with 6.

- units of 9 are only possible in harvestboon, and they work as really good objective/area deniers with their really good resilience and the pre-game movement.

[readercolin]

First things first, I want to clarify that I don't think that 9 bugs is ever the right choice.  It is too many points in one spot, too large of a target against an opponents shooting, and it is too hard to effectively use all 9 and still remain within the range of the woods that is required for strike and fade.  Because of the number of points in a squad of 9, you basically have to use strike and fade with them, as otherwise they are going to be WAY too exposed with over 1/3 of your army in a single unit.

Moving on, I think that seekers have valid reasons to be taken in squads of 3, or squads of 6.  Squads of 3 are good for supporting other hammer units in either kurnoths or other bug units, and being able to clear off objective sitters or screens.  Squads of 6 can be a good melee hammer on their own, and can take solid advantage of strike and fade, able to heal from any unleash ****** or fight on death effects that would annoy them.

As for lancers, they are worse than kurnoths or seekers in every way except fight first.  This means that you should only be bringing them if you plan to take advantage of fight first and charging, which means that I would only really look to bring them in squads of 3.  If you are bringing a squad of 6, you are likely looking to take advantage of strike and fade, in which case your opponent can't hit you back anyways, and why not do that with the higher damage seekers then?  With fight first though, you can charge across the lines and dish out damage to a number of targets before your opponent gets to respond.  With the mobility of seekers, this is a solid plan against any opponent who try to spread out, while a warsong revenant is going to punish anyone who decides to castle up instead (for extra points, use the warsong + branchwych + spell portal to double bomb them and really punish a castle).

[KarrWolves]

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

First things first, I want to clarify that I don't think that 9 bugs is ever the right choice.  It is too many points in one spot, too large of a target against an opponents shooting, and it is too hard to effectively use all 9 and still remain within the range of the woods that is required for strike and fade.  Because of the number of points in a squad of 9, you basically have to use strike and fade with them, as otherwise they are going to be WAY too exposed with over 1/3 of your army in a single unit.

Moving on, I think that seekers have valid reasons to be taken in squads of 3, or squads of 6.  Squads of 3 are good for supporting other hammer units in either kurnoths or other bug units, and being able to clear off objective sitters or screens.  Squads of 6 can be a good melee hammer on their own, and can take solid advantage of strike and fade, able to heal from any unleash ****** or fight on death effects that would annoy them.

As for lancers, they are worse than kurnoths or seekers in every way except fight first.  This means that you should only be bringing them if you plan to take advantage of fight first and charging, which means that I would only really look to bring them in squads of 3.  If you are bringing a squad of 6, you are likely looking to take advantage of strike and fade, in which case your opponent can't hit you back anyways, and why not do that with the higher damage seekers then?  With fight first though, you can charge across the lines and dish out damage to a number of targets before your opponent gets to respond.  With the mobility of seekers, this is a solid plan against any opponent who try to spread out, while a warsong revenant is going to punish anyone who decides to castle up instead (for extra points, use the warsong + branchwych + spell portal to double bomb them and really punish a castle).

I'd like to add a couple more comments on the Spiterider Lancers (nothing to add on the Seekers, very well summarized):

• the Fight First is particularly useful if you want to run 2 hammers: one of the 2 units can attacks an isolated target and stay there while the 2nd one can use strike and fade, and both can attack before getting attacked back
• they are very mobile, which means they are not relying on charge buffs and teleporting to deliver their damage
• they are cheaper than Seekers, and in some lists that can be the deciding factor: for a unit of 6, that's 50pts difference, which is quite a lot. One of the 2 lists that did a 5/0 with Sylvaneths had 2x 6 Spiterider Lancers, that's 100pts cheaper than the Seekers.
• the damage output compared to the Seekers is indeed worse but not by a huge margin, especially against low saves
• they are the best unit against Nighthaunt, Thunderlizard, Gotrek, Heart of Fury (everything that reduces the damages), which are pretty common in the meta (more for the first 2 but I've seen the other 2 as well).

So yeah, if you only look at the pure damage meter, they aren't the best, but once you consider their cost and every else they bring to the table, they are definitely not a unit to dismiss.

To conclude, I would recommend:

• Revenant Seekers: unit of 3 for support / 6 for survivable hammer
• Spiterider Lancers: unit of 6 for mobile hammer

Running 2x 6 Seekers isn't the best idea, but 6 Seekers in combination with 6 Lancers seems to be a good combo (or 2x 6 Lancers if short on points).

Edited October 7, 2022 by KarrWolves