AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Popisdead]

 

3 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I don't mind GW's Chimera. I actually don;t like mantic's version, just feels old school, 80's style.

Mantic is just cheap alternative gaming models.  They aren't aiming for better quality.  Ronnie (owner) has stated historically, plastics are really cheap once you stamp them up so his goal was just a cheap GW alternative.  

9 minutes ago, Salyx said:

You could even push it further making it a real killer with the Gavespawn Command Ability and Grashrak`s spell.

What I find pretty useful is their mobile Mortal Wounds. Can be really important to snipe that hero that needs to die, for example against Fyreslayers - or you just take 19 Cockatrice

However, they cannot be implemented in any bataillon, which increases your drops. Determining who takes the first turn is really important for Beasts of Chaos. I hope, on the next update, we get a bataillon that includes Monsters apart from Cygor and Ghorgor. That`s the only real reason I do not take Chimeras.

Yeah you can load them up as the +1A from the spawn stacks on each melee profile.  I think the shooting attacks needs two Chimera's to rely on the shooting attack.  Otherwise you just roll a 1 O_o...

The Battalions missed out on the Monsters.  Only Hungering Warherd got close to loading up on monsters and at the cost of only 1 DB.  The battalions need some attention.

19 Cockatrices are lovely... just make sure your general is Gonzo

[Popisdead]

@Maddpainting out of curiosity what are you taking these days?

 

Found this list at Goldcon 2021, not dissimilar to something I've run.  I placed mid pack which is fine.  diversity is good and just seeing everything represented in some fashion is ideal.  Every tournament should have a best-of race.

Dark walkers Brass Despoilers

Doombull Champions Doomcloak

Beastlord (Desolate Shard)

3 x 6 Bullgors, 1 x 3 Bullgors all with Great Axes

4 x 5 Centigors (operate as pairs for the rr 1s, up each flank)

2 Ghorgons.

I assume the BL is stabbing himself?  I would personally drop the 3 Bullgors for 20 Ungors to stab and be janky around the back field.  Shrugs, I would say if in one game you had an epic turn of slaughter it would be worth it for a tournament run.

[Chaos Shepard]

I think its good to have a Chimera in your back pocket for summoning. It has a nice charge bonus and come on the field within range of its mortal wound attacks. Though don't go into a game expecting to summon it.  I generally wait to turn 2 to see if it is viable. If I have rolled at least one 2 and one 3 on sacrifices I will consider the Chimera as a possible summon this game.  Even then based on the situation I may forgo it in favor of spamming some Bestagors.

[Apok]

Greetings.

 

Quote

Mantic is just cheap alternative gaming models.  They aren't aiming for better quality.  Ronnie (owner) has stated historically, plastics are really cheap once you stamp them up so his goal was just a cheap GW alternative.  

I beg the differ. That was true many years ago, since that time that company greatly improved their quality. Yes they did not reach the level of most GW minis but there are a handful of companies that can compare to GW. But If You look at the new plastic ones, they Rock! Detail and poses, if You wish I can send a photo of a new Basilean. The same goes for their Sci Fi range, please compare the imperial guard either scions or guardsmen to the GCPS models, Mantic is miles ahead of GW in this case.

  But back on topic. Are any of our Behemoths worth in a 1000 point game? I know that some scenarios provide extra VPs if a Behemoth controls an objective, but our monsters seem not to be competitive, and wasting 140+ points only for objective purposes does not seem a good idea?

 

[Maddpainting]

19 hours ago, Popisdead said:

@Maddpainting out of curiosity what are you taking these days?

 

Found this list at Goldcon 2021, not dissimilar to something I've run.  I placed mid pack which is fine.  diversity is good and just seeing everything represented in some fashion is ideal.  Every tournament should have a best-of race.

Dark walkers Brass Despoilers

Doombull Champions Doomcloak

Beastlord (Desolate Shard)

3 x 6 Bullgors, 1 x 3 Bullgors all with Great Axes

4 x 5 Centigors (operate as pairs for the rr 1s, up each flank)

2 Ghorgons.

I assume the BL is stabbing himself?  I would personally drop the 3 Bullgors for 20 Ungors to stab and be janky around the back field.  Shrugs, I would say if in one game you had an epic turn of slaughter it would be worth it for a tournament run.

About the same list as I have been for 2yrs lol.

Shaman
Shaman
Shaman
BL/DB 
Bestis
Bestis
Bestis
Bullgor x6 or 30 Bestigors ( if I take Betis I take BL, if I take Bulls I take DB).
Ungors
Ungors
Raiders
Raiders
Insert more Ungors and more Raiders
Gavespawn
Depraved Drove/

Thats about it. 

Depending how I feel I might take more Raiders than Ungors, or more Ungors and more Bestigors. 

Some times I go really Raider heavy and take 120 (4x30) with 60 Bestigors (1x30, 2x10) and just turn 1 flood the table with Raiders, sniping a key character or or unit, then forcing them to take the double turn or possible lose right there. I won against Seraphon like this the a couple weeks ago. Sniped out 2 units of 3 Salamders on my turn 1 before he got the +1 to saves off. He has to kill the Raiders now and take turn 2 first to stand a chance. But that is... not fun to play IMO, it is very hit or miss (its still 4+/4+ and they still get a 4+ save, yes I re-roll hits of 1 and 2, but its still swingy) so it either works or.... it doesn't lol.
 

[Popisdead]

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

About the same list as I have been for 2yrs lol.
...

Some times I go really Raider heavy and take 120 (4x30) with 60 Bestigors (1x30, 2x10) and just turn 1 flood the table with Raiders, sniping a key character or or unit, then forcing them to take the double turn or possible lose right there. I won against Seraphon like this the a couple weeks ago. Sniped out 2 units of 3 Salamders on my turn 1 before he got the +1 to saves off. He has to kill the Raiders now and take turn 2 first to stand a chance. But that is... not fun to play IMO, it is very hit or miss (its still 4+/4+ and they still get a 4+ save, yes I re-roll hits of 1 and 2, but its still swingy) so it either works or.... it doesn't lol.
 

Oh, I thought you dropped your shamans based on previous comments.  

I've used 30 Raiders early game march up to snipe characters.  

There was a guy in the early days of AoS who loved heavy pressure of lots of Raiders (Gorthor had a good buff at the time).  I have 120 Ungors and locally ppl don't care if I proxy.  So i've been tempted to spam them.  40 of them are built and painted as Raiders.  It isn't too far a stretch to put quivers and bows on the Maul-ungors and then easily have 80 that are usable.  These days CoS is a more effective shooting army and i have a very large WE army that I've converting over to Living City.

[Popisdead]

6 hours ago, Apok said:

  But back on topic. Are any of our Behemoths worth in a 1000 point game? I know that some scenarios provide extra VPs if a Behemoth controls an objective, but our monsters seem not to be competitive, and wasting 140+ points only for objective purposes does not seem a good idea?

 

Depends on the build.  I'm a fan of Ghorgons but they are swingy.  They are cheap enough and destructive enough to cause a pain.

[Maddpainting]

11 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Oh, I thought you dropped your shamans based on previous comments.  

I've used 30 Raiders early game march up to snipe characters.  

There was a guy in the early days of AoS who loved heavy pressure of lots of Raiders (Gorthor had a good buff at the time).  I have 120 Ungors and locally ppl don't care if I proxy.  So i've been tempted to spam them.  40 of them are built and painted as Raiders.  It isn't too far a stretch to put quivers and bows on the Maul-ungors and then easily have 80 that are usable.  These days CoS is a more effective shooting army and i have a very large WE army that I've converting over to Living City.

I try to never take less than 3 Heroes b.c Gavespawn is a HUGE part of my tactics. Locking mega heroes/units into combat for an additional turn so they can not move changes the game completely. Without Gavespawn i would be in lots of trouble. So I tend to start with 4 heroes and go from there. 

[Apok]

Hi

28 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

I try to never take less than 3 Heroes b.c Gavespawn is a HUGE part of my tactics. Locking mega heroes/units into combat for an additional turn so they can not move changes the game completely. Without Gavespawn i would be in lots of trouble. So I tend to start with 4 heroes and go from there. 

That is very interesting! I usually try to take 2 or 3 because I feel that our heroes are very weak. I mean the only engine that we have is the +3" Move aura. Which is a huge deal non the less but I feel that we want more bodies. Well unless You play Places of arcane power vs KO on a near empty table. In that case the more heroes the better :) I will have to try a 3x Shaman build one day because we do in fact have some nice Spells (Tendrils, Stranglethorns and Wild Rampage come to my head). But with no bonuses to cast we won't cast much I think.

  I also had an idea of a double beastlord build, one with the Gnarlblade and the other with the Volcanic Axe, but I think that the Knowing Eye is the clear winner for Artefact number 2 in Gave spawn.

[Maddpainting]

More heroes are more bodies 5/6 the time

[Forehead]

Also dont write off the devolve spell, hugely situational but great for dealing with screens and castle builds, maybe even cheekily pulling a unit off an objective or out of an aura.

I think its my favourite part of BoC when you get it off, either that or summoning 10 gors/ungors and making a 9+ charge to take an objective in turn 4 or 5.

The worst parts are when all your heroes are shot off by turn 2 or when your giant falls over onto the BL that just cut him. Devastating stuff.

[Televiper11]

Anyone have any good Razorgor proxy ideas? I was thinking of using Gorebeasts.

[Apok]

Hi

4 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

Anyone have any good Razorgor proxy ideas? I was thinking of using Gorebeasts.

   In the Wfb days I've used the Thunderwolfs from the Thunderwolf Cav. But right now The wolfs are Lycans in my KoW army. Gorebeasts was a thing too!

You can also go with the Ork Pigs, they are huge and will do nicely. I was thinking about using Morunfangs, they were my chariots once but now I’m using different models and they just sit in the box of shame 😊

[Maddpainting]

The large Ork IJ/savage pigs are great.

These https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ironjawz-Orruk-Gore-Gruntas

Edited February 3, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Popisdead]

15 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

Anyone have any good Razorgor proxy ideas? I was thinking of using Gorebeasts.

I bought a few boxes of Orc Boarboyz.  I put spare Bullgor horns on them to bulk them up.  I also did up my Chariots with them.  I suspect next battletome both chariots and razorgors will be gone.  GW isn't doing a good job supporting this range.  We only have 1 plastic hero.  

I guess Gorebeasts are the new Boarboyz?  Is that correct?  Those should work better as they are more bulky.  Mine were always a touch small.

[Popisdead]

On 1/28/2021 at 4:55 AM, Maddpainting said:

Some times I go really Raider heavy and take 120 (4x30) with 60 Bestigors (1x30, 2x10) and just turn 1 flood the table with Raiders, 

How feasible do you think spamming Raiders (thinking 120) with Desolating Herd in tops of double shots from 6s on ambush and being in the enemies deployment.  With Darkwalkers (a waste) you could do half the units turn 2.  I find good opponents still have enough to block off behind table ambushing.  

[Maddpainting]

Yeah it works i do it time to time actually. My 2 main Battalions for now are Depraved and Desolation. 

I went to a major GT with Desolating, almost every player loved the Raiders and said they were my MVP's, the problem with Desolation is the 1 Gor/Chariot unit and only up to 3 Bestigor units. I did only go 2-3 but that was also b.c FeC/HoS still had their insane first first mechanics and HoS has summoning like crazy. 

My list was 
BL
Shaman
Shaman
Shaman
Bestigor x30
Bestigor x10
Bestigor x10
Raiders x30
Raiders x30
Raiders x30
Ungors x10
Ungors x10
Gors x10
Desolating 
2000 (was 2k at the time)

One of the HoS had a terrible OP list that he took 2nd in the full event with, only b.c he spent like $800 on the 15 of the Harp hero that shoots, gains points, is cheap, etc.. if it wasn't for that 1 unit and OPness that should have been faq right away I would have won that game as I actually almost did win. (He cost something like 6 DP but it always gave you 5? something silly like that and then b.c it dealt wounds it also gave you DP's as well. I can't fully remember but I do remember it was basically free to get and you can get 2-3 a turn easily. He had 12 on turn 2).


But remember 4 of the missions has small DZ's and will be hard to use that battalions ability. You also can not really take the 2nd turn and hold objectives, you either give up turn 1 objectives completely for a chance at double turn, or you take turn 1 and zone them out enough so if you get double turn its ok.  Its still only 4's to wound with no Rend, you will 100% kill 1 or 2 key units, but don't expect to kill much more than that. 

PS: I would be careful with shooting armies for the future, GW might end up nerfing them in some way as they are extremely strong right now.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Derptau]

Who the hell does a 15 enchrantress list? That's just dumb. I kinda love this list. I think we're goin to see a weird swing against shooting armies soon though. Either in the guise of a new book or the new edition.

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

PS: I would be careful with shooting armies for the future, GW might end up nerfing them in some way as they are extremely strong right now.

I didn't think they were that strong.  CoS seems to do well as 4-1 but I've yet to see a 60-90 Sisters of the Watch Living City list

8 minutes ago, Derptau said:

Who the hell does a 15 enchrantress list? 

Isn't she a Leader?  I guess he summoned her....

[Maddpainting]

Yeah they can summon her. 

Also Seraphon, Lum, and KO shooting is out of this world. 

Lum can do 20+ MW's each turn from 30" away
Seraphon has 2-3 units of guys with lots of attacks that are -2 for D3 that also can be buffed many times (re-rolls, run and shoot, +atks, + to hits, + to saves, etc...)
KO is KO. 

[Maddpainting]

46 minutes ago, Derptau said:

Who the hell does a 15 enchrantress list? That's just dumb. I kinda love this list. I think we're goin to see a weird swing against shooting armies soon though. Either in the guise of a new book or the new edition.

Yeah it was a thing right before the DP nerf. But it was also a Major GT, so you take what you think can win.

[Apok]

Hi!

13 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

PS: I would be careful with shooting armies for the future, GW might end up nerfing them in some way as they are extremely strong right now.

Let us hope so, the shooting rules are as dumb as you can get! When I played 40k from 3rd to 5th edition You Could actually hide in close combat, and in 4th edition it was a major ork tactic, smash a whole unit and consolidate into another one. But right now in AoS Shooting has no boundaries! Fire from Close combat, info close combat etc.  There are so many good TT games out there right now. When I play vs a KO I feel like there is nothing I can do. To be fair though we have no LoS blocking terrain and no area terrain so maybe that is why I get beat up so much. Maybe skyfires are the answer to my problems? Because I have only 30 Ungor rider I prefer to use them as 3x10 instead of 1x30 man strong unit.

[Maddpainting]

Shooting into combat is not a bad idea and was placed their to help range units in a combat game. But it has gotten way out of control. They just need to put in some restrictions, like -1 to hit, only hit on 6's, can't melee if you shoot, etc...

[Derptau]

No way. 3rd through now you can still hide in close combat in 40k and it's dumb, but it's also much more important in a game with standard troops being able to reach across the board from every army out there. 

Shooting into combat is great in AoS as far as I'm concerned. One of the things that doesn't happen because of that is the previously mention ork hopscotch. 

More so, it stops protracted combats from happening, meaning it behoves you to use the movement phase to better effect in order to hit units and not be stuck in combat with them.

 

9 hours ago, Apok said:

Hi!

Let us hope so, the shooting rules are as dumb as you can get! When I played 40k from 3rd to 5th edition You Could actually hide in close combat, and in 4th edition it was a major ork tactic, smash a whole unit and consolidate into another one. But right now in AoS Shooting has no boundaries! Fire from Close combat, info close combat etc.  There are so many good TT games out there right now. When I play vs a KO I feel like there is nothing I can do. To be fair though we have no LoS blocking terrain and no area terrain so maybe that is why I get beat up so much. Maybe skyfires are the answer to my problems? Because I have only 30 Ungor rider I prefer to use them as 3x10 instead of 1x30 man strong unit.

 

[Popisdead]

10 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Shooting into combat is not a bad idea and was placed their to help range units in a combat game. But it has gotten way out of control. They just need to put in some restrictions, like -1 to hit, only hit on 6's, can't melee if you shoot, etc...

What are the comparisons to 40k?  I know if 40k it's pistols only.  

15 hours ago, Apok said:

Hi!

Let us hope so, the shooting rules are as dumb as you can get! When I played 40k from 3rd to 5th edition You Could actually hide in close combat, and in 4th edition it was a major ork tactic, smash a whole unit and consolidate into another one. But right now in AoS Shooting has no boundaries! Fire from Close combat, info close combat etc.  There are so many good TT games out there right now. When I play vs a KO I feel like there is nothing I can do. To be fair though we have no LoS blocking terrain and no area terrain so maybe that is why I get beat up so much. Maybe skyfires are the answer to my problems? Because I have only 30 Ungor rider I prefer to use them as 3x10 instead of 1x30 man strong unit.

Um no.  They really aren't.  They are good and means your Fantasy army can still work.  Hiding in CC for an archer unit is death.  

3rd ed 40k: mechanical chess, just Rhino rush and win without thinking

4th: Can I game these rules harder than you?  Orks were terrible in this edition.  Utter garbage.  The big issues was Hammer DAemon Hunter heroes in marine armies consodolating into every other unit they smash.  

5th: pretty good ruleset and Orks did reliably well for me.  So good edition   I don't recall loosing much if at all.  Maybe it was the pain of learning in 4th.

Across the board BoC are a hard army to do well.  You really do need the bodies.  100-180 Wounds.

Consider watching these to learn some tips