AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Waiyuren]

9 hours ago, TactfulSaturn said:

 Hi guys, new to the forum but have been watching for a while to help build my tzeentch list! 

Saw this and found it interesting,  I sometimes find myself running out of spell choices, thinking I am out of range in turn 1. Is this normal practice that people still cast out of range to get the fate points? Do opponents ever kick off about it?

It does seem cheesey at first, but Tzeentch summoning is actually pretty expensive compared to other factions to factor that in; spells have always been written "cast spell; if successful pick target; if in range apply effects". On top of that, when AoS2 summoning was previewed the designers themselves said that was how fate points were meant to work.

They can't get angry at you for trying to bank points... That'd be like getting angry at you for playing your turn in the correct order. 😒

[Kharneth]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

It really depends i don't tend to save up as even if i'm out of range for alot of my spells the endless pells iwant to start setting up are important enough to get that +1 on on. 

That's what I was thinking. Though being unbound is unlikely, it's too important to be successful with those spells on the first turn. 

mmimzie, what does your 2k list with 3 pink horror units and no shaman look like? 

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

That's what I was thinking. Though being unbound is unlikely, it's too important to be successful with those spells on the first turn. 

mmimzie, what does your 2k list with 3 pink horror units and no shaman look like? 

yeah sure:

LoC, General, Mark of confuration, Magical Supremacy
Gaunt summoner 
Ogroid thaumaturge

10xPink Horrors
10x Pink horrors
10x Pink horrors

9x enlightend on disc (edit)

Umbral spell Portal
Balewind
Cogs
Burning Head
Pendulum

Is the current iteration.  Wall yourself off with pinks and enlightend and slaughter droves of pinks on your first turn to get lots of summoning pts early on.  Changes i've waffled on is droping the balewind and umbral spell portal for 10 acolytes to make my screen bigger, but honestly i use the enlightend as much as an anvil as i do as a hammer so i don't feel i need more of a screen. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by mmimzie

[Kharneth]

17 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

yeah sure:

LoC, General, Mark of confuration, Magical Supremacy
Gaunt summoner 
Ogroid thaumaturge

10xPink Horrors
10x Pink horrors
10x Pink horrors

9x enlightend

Umbral spell Portal
Balewind
Cogs
Burning Head
Pendulum

Is the current iteration.  Wall yourself off with pinks and enlightend and slaughter droves of pinks on your first turn to get lots of summoning pts early on.  Changes i've waffled on is droping the balewind and umbral spell portal for 10 acolytes to make my screen bigger, but honestly i use the enlightend as much as an anvil as i do as a hammer so i don't feel i need more of a screen. 

Oh thanks! I'm surprised to see that the shaman was not replaced with another hero. Who are you giving Fold Reality to, here? Do you pay any mind to the Burning Head's to hit buff? It seems really minor, but also seems to synergize very well with Pink Horrors. I'm guessing you're getting 30 blue horrors turn 1 no problem, yeah? 

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, Kharneth said:

Oh thanks! I'm surprised to see that the shaman was not replaced with another hero. Who are you giving Fold Reality to, here? Do you pay any mind to the Burning Head's to hit buff? It seems really minor, but also seems to synergize very well with Pink Horrors. I'm guessing you're getting 30 blue horrors turn 1 no problem, yeah? 

2 of the pink horror units get fold reality.  As they get a near always on +1 to cast just by smelling a hero. Then another +1 from the LoC command ability, and you ahve some pretty hand casters. Casters who can reliably help cast your net work of endless spells.  I give two of the units fold reality becasue i like to make sure i have the spell later into  the game. 

I do casualy pay mind to the burning head buff, but i don't break my net over it either. 

Yeah it's a pretty reliable 30 blue horrors, general i force the pendulum with the LoC and a Destiny die turn 1, and then attempt the burning head with one of the fold reality pink horor units. Then the other fold reality unit cast fold reality on the none fold reality unit. the none fold reality unit usualy hast unchecked mutation, and that unit tries to use the fold reality models to sneak forward into turn 1 casting range. 

i don't take another heros as i just use 120 of the pts to upgrade what would be a kairic alcolyte units into a wizard with +1 to cast, and use theo ther 60 to pay for another endless spell. 

[newsun]

36 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

yeah sure:

LoC, General, Mark of confuration, Magical Supremacy
Gaunt summoner 
Ogroid thaumaturge

10xPink Horrors
10x Pink horrors
10x Pink horrors

9x enlightend

Umbral spell Portal
Balewind
Cogs
Burning Head
Pendulum

Is the current iteration.  Wall yourself off with pinks and enlightend and slaughter droves of pinks on your first turn to get lots of summoning pts early on.  Changes i've waffled on is droping the balewind and umbral spell portal for 10 acolytes to make my screen bigger, but honestly i use the enlightend as much as an anvil as i do as a hammer so i don't feel i need more of a screen. 

All eggs in one basket for combat threat seems sketchy especially since a 1 on fold could remove the unit. 

[mmimzie]

8 minutes ago, newsun said:

All eggs in one basket for combat threat seems sketchy especially since a 1 on fold could remove the unit. 

Yay you mean i killed more pinks and get more fate points. AWESOME!!! Or if you mean for the enlightend on disc, i mean??? them the breaks of having a powerful spell. Generally the enlightend have paid for themselves or have done thier job before i attempt using fold reality on them.

Edit: so like the opinion on pinks isn't on farming value from them, atleast no entirely.  It is certainly quite nice when you get more pts of  blue than you deserve from them, but it is more about getting the blue up the table and in the way turn 1. Getting the blues on or around objectives. This scores me lots of pts and force my opponent to have to kill them thus getting me the real value of getting brimstones turn 2 and thus hopefully get them into place to score more even more pts. It's our best and quickest way to score objectives and get ahead quickly in the game, and is one of our primary strengths. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by mmimzie

[Kharneth]

12 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

2 of the pink horror units get fold reality.  As they get a near always on +1 to cast just by smelling a hero. Then another +1 from the LoC command ability, and you ahve some pretty hand casters. Casters who can reliably help cast your net work of endless spells.  I give two of the units fold reality becasue i like to make sure i have the spell later into  the game. 

I do casualy pay mind to the burning head buff, but i don't break my net over it either. 

Yeah it's a pretty reliable 30 blue horrors, general i force the pendulum with the LoC and a Destiny die turn 1, and then attempt the burning head with one of the fold reality pink horor units. Then the other fold reality unit cast fold reality on the none fold reality unit. the none fold reality unit usualy hast unchecked mutation, and that unit tries to use the fold reality models to sneak forward into turn 1 casting range. 

i don't take another heros as i just use 120 of the pts to upgrade what would be a kairic alcolyte units into a wizard with +1 to cast, and use theo ther 60 to pay for another endless spell. 

As far as I can tell, Pink Horrors are the most reliable casters (tied with Gaunt + Familiars) other than the LoC. They seem so vulnerable, though I'd be worried that Fold Reality wouldn't reliably last for when it's needed on the enlightens. That's a pretty awesome/sneaky tactic with the Fold Reality into Unchecked Mutation range, but why Unchecked Mutation and not Bolt of Tzeentch or Tzeentch Firestorm?

It might be more worth it for me to take Balewind and Burning Head instead of the Blue Scribes since the Balewind Vortex will be the extra spell cast that I lost from losing the scribes and the extra kills from the Horrors might prove more useful for summoning than re-rolling spell casts. How many turns do you kill your horrors for summoning points past the first turn? There're only so many 1s for Destiny Dice and Fold Reality casts. I can't imagine you can afford to do more than 3 turns of this at most (unless you get really (un)lucky with destiny dice) without losing the units. 

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

As far as I can tell, Pink Horrors are the most reliable casters (tied with Gaunt + Familiars) other than the LoC. They seem so vulnerable, though I'd be worried that Fold Reality wouldn't reliably last for when it's needed on the enlightens. That's a pretty awesome/sneaky tactic with the Fold Reality into Unchecked Mutation range, but why Unchecked Mutation and not Bolt of Tzeentch or Tzeentch Firestorm?

It might be more worth it for me to take Balewind and Burning Head instead of the Blue Scribes since the Balewind Vortex will be the extra spell cast that I lost from losing the scribes and the extra kills from the Horrors might prove more useful for summoning than re-rolling spell casts. How many turns do you kill your horrors for summoning points past the first turn? There're only so many 1s for Destiny Dice and Fold Reality casts. I can't imagine you can afford to do more than 3 turns of this at most (unless you get really (un)lucky with destiny dice) without losing the units. 

LoC cast bolt of change, he's the best wizard, i'm gonna give him what i see is the best spell.

Tzeentch's firestorm: 9 dice fishing for 6s that do d3 mortal wounds: 9/6 is 1.5 times the average of a d3 which is 2, means you do 3 average mortal wounds. Less than the average of bolt of change while being harder to cast. Making Bolt of change the best spell.  Spikes very high and also very low, can very realisticly do 0 damage, but could  (all though less likely than 0 damage) do 6 mortal wounds.  7+: 1.75     8+: 1.25      9+:  .83

Unchecked mutation:  dpes d3 mortal wounds of a 7 which is average 2. ~.5 more mortal wounds on average from the unchecked mutation bit.  But just keeping it at 2 mortal wounds. Alittle easier than Bolt of change, but not by much.   Damage when factoring in the casting value (or needed roll) 5+: 1.666       6+:1.444      7+: 1.16

So comparing the two spell we can see they are really close when cast by a pink horror squad with full buffs.  That said for me i like that uncheck put out damage almost every turn, but i can see the argument for the potential burst of firestorm. I think it's definitly a choice to me made, but i'm just a bigger fan of  reliability over spike damage.

It's not an infinite combo, and i don't think i've sold it as such. Sure you can't keep milling your pinks past turn 3 or so, but the value of summoning drops of dramaticly late into the game. As you opponent is likely well nested on objectives by then, and so it's more about smash in and claim objectives and less about summoning to take hold of objectives.  So pink milling is turns 1-3, and enlighend/Loc/ Gaunt summoner/ogroid work to score you pts later by clearing hole in your opponents armies. Ogroid being key in that the brim stones he summons can retreat from the unit they are in combat with and still stay in objective range. Unlike normal summong that must be more then 9" away. 

[Kharneth]

45 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

LoC cast bolt of change, he's the best wizard, i'm gonna give him what i see is the best spell.

Tzeentch's firestorm: 9 dice fishing for 6s that do d3 mortal wounds: 9/6 is 1.5 times the average of a d3 which is 2, means you do 3 average mortal wounds. Less than the average of bolt of change while being harder to cast. Making Bolt of change the best spell.  Spikes very high and also very low, can very realisticly do 0 damage, but could  (all though less likely than 0 damage) do 6 mortal wounds.  7+: 1.75     8+: 1.25      9+:  .83

Unchecked mutation:  dpes d3 mortal wounds of a 7 which is average 2. ~.5 more mortal wounds on average from the unchecked mutation bit.  But just keeping it at 2 mortal wounds. Alittle easier than Bolt of change, but not by much.   Damage when factoring in the casting value (or needed roll) 5+: 1.666       6+:1.444      7+: 1.16

So comparing the two spell we can see they are really close when cast by a pink horror squad with full buffs.  That said for me i like that uncheck put out damage almost every turn, but i can see the argument for the potential burst of firestorm. I think it's definitly a choice to me made, but i'm just a bigger fan of  reliability over spike damage.

It's not an infinite combo, and i don't think i've sold it as such. Sure you can't keep milling your pinks past turn 3 or so, but the value of summoning drops of dramaticly late into the game. As you opponent is likely well nested on objectives by then, and so it's more about smash in and claim objectives and less about summoning to take hold of objectives.  So pink milling is turns 1-3, and enlighend/Loc/ Gaunt summoner/ogroid work to score you pts later by clearing hole in your opponents armies. Ogroid being key in that the brim stones he summons can retreat from the unit they are in combat with and still stay in objective range. Unlike normal summong that must be more then 9" away. 

Thanks, and I do agree. I had not considered spells in terms of their casting value before. I appreciate the analysis as I wouldn't know how to come up with damage based on casting rolls. I am also a bigger fan of reliability over spike damage, especially when the spike damage occurs randomly. 

Yeah, you didn't sell it as an infinite combo, I'm mostly just thinking out loud. With Pendulum and Burning Head you could get 15 slain horrors and drop 30 blue horrors without even dipping into fate points. I like your list as it's $25 cheaper and if I find my spell casting too unreliable I can then add the Blue Scribes to help out. Not sold on the spellportal, though I've got one enemy in particular I think I'll use it for, but there are other endless spells I'd like to experiment with (pallisade and shackles). 

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Thanks, and I do agree. I had not considered spells in terms of their casting value before. I appreciate the analysis as I wouldn't know how to come up with damage based on casting rolls. I am also a bigger fan of reliability over spike damage, especially when the spike damage occurs randomly. 

Yeah, you didn't sell it as an infinite combo, I'm mostly just thinking out loud. With Pendulum and Burning Head you could get 15 slain horrors and drop 30 blue horrors without even dipping into fate points. I like your list as it's $25 cheaper and if I find my spell casting too unreliable I can then add the Blue Scribes to help out. Not sold on the spellportal, though I've got one enemy in particular I think I'll use it for, but there are other endless spells I'd like to experiment with (pallisade and shackles). 

I like the spell portal because it does an average of 6 mortal wounds this is enough to drop most onfoot heroes with a single spell. Giving you some powerful turn 1 muscle flex, combine that with some turn 1 summoned blue horrors and you become a very realistic threat for droping a lot high profile heroes. That said i do agree droping the portal wouldn't be a bad idea. I also feel kind of similar about the balewind as it'****** or miss in various match ups. 

[Kharneth]

13 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I like the spell portal because it does an average of 6 mortal wounds this is enough to drop most onfoot heroes with a single spell. Giving you some powerful turn 1 muscle flex, combine that with some turn 1 summoned blue horrors and you become a very realistic threat for droping a lot high profile heroes. That said i do agree droping the portal wouldn't be a bad idea. I also feel kind of similar about the balewind as it'****** or miss in various match ups. 

I assume those 6 mortal wounds are coming from Infernal Gateway? That's the exact scenario I can see that being used, also possibly for transferring the predatory spells to the enemy when you're done splitting horrors. Still, it's something I could do without. Doing 6 mortal wounds through the portal to a hero and then chipping a unit with 2 mortal wounds from unchecked mutation and however many from an extended infernal flames on turn 1 would be so mean!

[Reezark_SP]

Mmimzie, ideally how many Blues do you try to get on the table throughout the game before you spend your fate points on to summoning something else? What else besides Blues do you like to summon?

[mmimzie]

13 hours ago, Reezark_SP said:

Mmimzie, ideally how many Blues do you try to get on the table throughout the game before you spend your fate points on to summoning something else? What else besides Blues do you like to summon?

The first turn I secure as much of the map as I can. For that it depends on the mission. If it is a hero mission than I will save my casting pts to summon a herald turn 2, otherwise I aim for 40 blue horrors turn 1.  Turn 2  I try to kill enough pinks to grab another 30 blues and summon most or all of the brims I got fro. the blue horrors that died previously. If the blues are dying fast than I tend to spend all my fate pts keep my model count high, otherwise I save fate pts for flamers/exalted flamers in turn 3. 

 

Edit: on the topic of none blue horror summoning. One could lean less into fate pts. Since most blue horror summoning is coming from pink horror milling, and very little from casting. You could drop the mark of conjuration on the LoC. Which would make the cogs less worth while. From there one could drop the vortex and spell portal both of which already having questionable usefulness. This would clear up 160pts and an artifact. The LoC could take the feather charm  to move abit faster, and be abit safer. While you also bring 2x10 karmic acolytes to make your initial screen that much harder to penetrate.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by mmimzie

[Neffelo]

What configurations does everyone rune their Karic Acolytes in?

[Kharneth]

On 11/30/2018 at 5:22 PM, Neffelo said:

What configurations does everyone rune their Karic Acolytes in?

To me it doesn't really seem to matter. I use mine with all shields and swords because their purpose is to die and the 6+ save from the shield makes them that much harder to kill. They don't really do damage, you could give 3 guys the glaive but I don't think it'd make a huge difference.  There's no real harm in it, you'll probably lose the last 3-5 through battleshock anyway. I wouldn't take any paired weapons because you'll want at least some shields. 

[mmimzie]

On 11/30/2018 at 2:22 PM, Neffelo said:

What configurations does everyone rune their Karic Acolytes in?

@Kharneth hit the nail on the head for this one. They don't do alot, they are appart of a shooting spam that can occur if you get tons of blues and pinks on the table, but really they are a cheap and mildly durable way to get wounds on the table.  I think brims are maybe too throw away and they die to literally anything. The acolytes are abit better in that reguard. 

[Kharneth]

When using the Ogroid Thaumaturge's Fireblast what type of horror do people create? Brimstone horror seems pointless as blue is better in every way, though I'd be tempted to summon a pink horror over a blue horror. Is there any reason to summon blue horrors (perhaps for the smaller base size?)? If I summon a Pink Horror will it get to cast a spell since it's still the Hero Phase? When I create Pink Horrors in this way, or through summoning (Herald as well), do they immediately generate a spell from the list? Creating a single Pink Horror that can now cast spells like a Wizard seems like a very powerful thing provided you still have uncasted spells.

[Fuggorf]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

When using the Ogroid Thaumaturge's Fireblast what type of horror do people create? Brimstone horror seems pointless as blue is better in every way, though I'd be tempted to summon a pink horror over a blue horror. Is there any reason to summon blue horrors (perhaps for the smaller base size?)? If I summon a Pink Horror will it get to cast a spell since it's still the Hero Phase? When I create Pink Horrors in this way, or through summoning (Herald as well), do they immediately generate a spell from the list? Creating a single Pink Horror that can now cast spells like a Wizard seems like a very powerful thing provided you still have uncasted spells.

You don't get a choice. It only summons Brimstones.

Page 127 – Ogroid Thaumaturge, Fireblast Change the last sentence to: ‘After the damage has been inflicted, you can set up 1 unit of Brimstone Horrors within 1" of the target; the number of models set up in the new unit is equal to the number of mortal wounds inflicted.’

[Kharneth]

6 minutes ago, Fuggorf said:

You don't get a choice. It only summons Brimstones.

Page 127 – Ogroid Thaumaturge, Fireblast Change the last sentence to: ‘After the damage has been inflicted, you can set up 1 unit of Brimstone Horrors within 1" of the target; the number of models set up in the new unit is equal to the number of mortal wounds inflicted.’

Oh they changed it? 

But still, when/if you summon a wizard do you get to choose a spell for it to have? 

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

Oh they changed it? 

But still, when/if you summon a wizard do you get to choose a spell for it to have? 

yeah the ogroid is just brims now. it's still pretty good it's basicly shift the control of an area potentialy by 2xd6 because you can kill d6 guys and get d6 brims that can retreat and hold the objective. Also shooting wise the damage out put from shooting for both brims and blue horrors is about the same.  Blue would be better obviously becuase they give you brims eventualy. 

Not sure if the summoned wizard should or shouldn't get a spell, but as i read it. It owuld seem you could get your spell as it jsut says wizards in your army can take the spell. It doesn't specificy wizards that started the game in your army. Though there could be something in the generals hand book the counters this. 

EDIT: looks like a yes

from the FAQ:

Q: If I add units to my army after a battle has started, and my army has an allegiance ability that adds a keyword to the units in the army, is that keyword received by eligible units I add to my army after the battle has begun? For example, if I have a Stormcast Eternals army and use the Stormhosts rule to give all Stormcast Eternals units in the army the Hammers of Sigmar keyword, would any new Stormcast Eternals units that I add to my army get the keyword? By the same token, if an allegiance ability has a spell lore that grants a spell to Wizards in an army, do Wizards that I add to the army that have the appropriate allegiance gain a spell? A: Yes to all questions.

Edited December 3, 2018 by mmimzie

[mmimzie]

Also spent some time tonight adding some more color to my lord of change. I think I like him staying mostly washed out so the bright wings really stand out on the table, but he was too dark. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by mmimzie

[Kharneth]

I think Ogroid is going to be a useful addition. His Fireblast is a very good spell, it's basically an easier to cast Bolt of Tzeentch. I see the horrors as a bonus that makes it particularly useful around objectives, as you've mentioned. He's an arcanite wizard so he can be used to cast Glimpse the Future if I need the Gaunt Summoner to take something else. Lastly, he's got excellent combat stats for a wizard. I plan on using him to hold/steal an objective. I think using him with Treacherous Bond surrounded by lots of blue and brimstone horrors will make for a hard-to-secure objective. 

Your Lord of Change is so dark and colorful at the same time! Do you use it with the sword? How's that go for you, is it mostly for defense or do you often engage in combat? 

[Reezark_SP]

On 12/1/2018 at 10:04 PM, mmimzie said:

@Kharneth hit the nail on the head for this one. They don't do alot, they are appart of a shooting spam that can occur if you get tons of blues and pinks on the table, but really they are a cheap and mildly durable way to get wounds on the table.  I think brims are maybe too throw away and they die to literally anything. The acolytes are abit better in that reguard. 

I like to make mine as annoying as possible. Multiple groups of 10 with Scroll for extra shooting range the the bird to maybe put a mortal wound on enemy wizards. Everybody else gets shields/blades and shields/glaives.

[Kharneth]

1 hour ago, Reezark_SP said:

I like to make mine as annoying as possible. Multiple groups of 10 with Scroll for extra shooting range the the bird to maybe put a mortal wound on enemy wizards. Everybody else gets shields/blades and shields/glaives.

I never take them above 10 and always give them the Scroll and Vulcharc as they do not replace weapons. I don't believe you can use shields with the glaives, so you'll lose 3 shields. Maybe you can use the shields against ranged attacks? I assumed the "double-handed" description meant that it replaces the sword and shield.