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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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12 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Dont you ever run into issues having put all your eggs in one basket? Arent opponents with quite a few Endless spells gonna be trouble with zero unbinding/dispells?

What about plague monks or witches? Wont they just run in and mob your units?

Quick note, I managed to ****** up the copy paste (I was knackered last night). I was big waaagh! With Big G as the general (corrected it).

A little bit but the only unit which isn't a threat with +1 damage is the 5 ardboys, even a unit of 10 or the block of 5 will mince stuff with it.

My biggest issue came down to how slow the army is without mighty destroyers, brutes limping across the battlefield being mopped up after the game is over etc. The only way I'd play big waaagh! Over IJ is if I was running a true hybrid list.

Honestly my biggest complaints were the 15 brutes rather than spells etc. I'd swap them out for 6 more GGs and possibly even another unit of 3. My next list will probably be something like this.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

2 big blocks of GGs, cabbage, weirdnob (maybe as general with 2 spells?) Hand of gork. I don't think you can overdo it on GGs they are just that good.

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Quick note, I managed to ****** up the copy paste (I was knackered last night). I was big waaagh! With Big G as the general (corrected it).

A little bit but the only unit which isn't a threat with +1 damage is the 5 ardboys, even a unit of 10 or the block of 5 will mince stuff with it.

My biggest issue came down to how slow the army is without mighty destroyers, brutes limping across the battlefield being mopped up after the game is over etc. The only way I'd play big waaagh! Over IJ is if I was running a true hybrid list.

Honestly my biggest complaints were the 15 brutes rather than spells etc. I'd swap them out for 6 more GGs and possibly even another unit of 3. My next list will probably be something like this.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

2 big blocks of GGs, cabbage, weirdnob (maybe as general with 2 spells?) Hand of gork. I don't think you can overdo it on GGs they are just that good.

Your lists just seem rather alphastrikey and not built around taking damage back. I have taken some inspiration, and I have had issues with other alpha strike armies personally. 

I dont mean anything bad about it, because a good offense is a valid tactic, and I often roll over people, but I have trouble vs endless spells that persist entire game and tons of screens or other armies that also alpha since the lists dont really have any proper screens. Thats why Im curious. 

But yeah, Im really surprised how much damage a buffed unit of charging Spear piggies do. Im certainly gonna run atleast 1 unit of 6, maybe 2, then Ardboyz.

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47 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Your lists just seem rather alphastrikey and not built around taking damage back. I have taken some inspiration, and I have had issues with other alpha strike armies personally. 

I dont mean anything bad about it, because a good offense is a valid tactic, and I often roll over people, but I have trouble vs endless spells that persist entire game and tons of screens or other armies that also alpha since the lists dont really have any proper screens. Thats why Im curious. 

But yeah, Im really surprised how much damage a buffed unit of charging Spear piggies do. Im certainly gonna run atleast 1 unit of 6, maybe 2, then Ardboyz.

As a player I am very aggressive. If you leave a gap or I think I see a weakness I will just initiate and try to punish as hard as I can. It's one of the reasons I struggled so much playing Big Waaagh! you need at least 1 turn to hit critical mass Waaagh! points before you can really go.

I'll try to hit broad points and keep the answers easy easy to understand as possible but this is going to dip into both my strategical, tactical and general gameplay very quickly. To reiterate though, if you go and watch the honest wargamer coverage of Bloodshed in the Shires, leo is a perfect example of a conservative Ironjawz player, I am literally the opposite end of that spectrum I'm about as aggressive as it can get. To give an example, since their release earlier this year I've killed 4 archregents before they got to summon, I've also got a few GK heads on the list aswell.

 

One of the key points to bring up early is that I am NOT running alphastrike lists, they look like it but they aren't. What I'm running is shock lists which rely on the lists aggressive potential to force the opponent to play as if next turn I'm in their face forcing the fight. This causes such a massive amount of problems and potential threats that the opponent has to deal with, is there a gap in the screen, can I punch one with shooting/impact hits, did they leave enough space for a Maw-Krusha to land in all becomes serious considerations for the opponent. More importantly they are serious considerations while I'm sat 25" away, I can literally be halfway across the board and they are still have to protect against me. I will just go at the drop of a hat from 24-28" away.

Game 3 at bloodshed is a good example of my mindset and how I play, my opponent deployed under the assumption that I would either give him first turn or try to fight on objectives. My response was to go first, ignore the objectives kill his archregent, put a cabbage into a terrorghiest while throwing 3 pigs to kill the screen allowing me to potentially pile in and attack the one with doppleganger. End result is that on my turn 1 I've his archregent and the ghouls on one side of the board, forced the terrorghiest to blow his doppleganger without actually engaging it and triggered a cabbage attacks on the second terrorghiest (it wiffed in spectacular style :( ).

 

The reason I brought that up first is that it's crucial to how I deal with the problems you're facing. An endless spell for example is hitting at most 24" away? So I'm actually out of range of them, Despite that I'm still well within threat range for my opponent, so they are forced to choose from three really bad options. Either they don't cast their spells (I played vs Nagash today, he cast 1 offensive spell over the entire game), they move towards me in the hope that they get next turn or they throw them out into the wild and pray.

 

On the screen issue, depending on what army I'm playing against I will often just swing for the double turn so at worst I'm running a 41.5% chance to win off a double turn. It's really complicated to go through because it varies wildly by army but it's combination of trying to force my opponent to make errors, making charges in order to clear screens while also screening myself from to much potential retaliation, throwing some units away to clean up screens opening up potential in later turns or just using my charges to pin the opponent while I win on objectives.

Another example from last week I played against sylvaneth he moved forward a bit and I slammed into his screens clearing them off. He then attacked into part of my assault with his hard hitters, so I threw the rest of it EVEN FURTHER into his line threatening his heroes that he needed for his teleports. By the end of his turn 3 he had cleared both cabbages, 6 gg's and a unit of 5 ardboys, he'd also lost the game because I was so far ahead on points he couldn't get back into it. I know I'm not going to hit his good stuff, I know that it's a suicide attack but I also know that while he's dealing with it I'll be busying scoring a ton of objectives. Then it really comes down to how well you pick your moment and can you delay/capitalise enough to win even if you die doing it.

 

Lastly is other alphastrikes, this is such a complicated question because I have literally never faced someone who could alphastrike me...Theoretically you screen in such a way that if they hit it you can retaliate and brutalise them. Realistically almost no army is running a 28-32" threat range AND a player who is aggressive enough to actually risk it. Even Bloodthirsters are running a max threat range of 22" and that's considered huge.

 

This then brings us back round to my first point. It's VERY rare that I actually alphastrike, maybe 4 games in the last 25. Most of the time I threaten without actually allowing my opponent to engage, this lets me build up command points and stall the game out on an even footing meaning that my eventual assault is even stronger. If you spend 3 turns wiggling forward on your objectives while I dance just out of range I now have 2 extra CP and you have 2 less turns to push me off your objectives ASWELL as take my objectives to actually equalise on points.

So yes, the list looks hyper aggressive because that's how it's meant to play and how I play as a player. The idea is that my opponent is so busy shitting themselves of whether or not I'm going to kick their teeth in next turn that I don't actually have to do it to win the game. They are looking at the bear knowing that they can't attack it forced to wait until it attacks them and if they trip or stumble it WILL pounce and will eat them. Control through aggressive potential.

If all else fails you can fall back on the old "Here's an army, catch" then play the "can you deal with it" game. 

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@Malakree Amen brother, I am with you here, I think this is exactly why IJ has so much potential right now. Yeah the Warchanter Buff is bonkers, but it's all about presure, threat and the possibility to punish your opponent when he makes mistakes, even if you are 24" away. With the current rules of IJ you have nearly complete map control.

I have a very similar list I want to play on my next tournament.

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 90 / 400
Wounds: 131

Edited by Hot Peanut
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One thing I have enjoyed over the weekend is a Warchanter with Get 'Em Beat and The Sash of Ten Paradises (+2" move). It meant that I could run him, make it a 6 and be going 12" when you combine that with the 12" bubble it's actually really easy to get off even with the long bomb engages. While it's very unreliable 😑 it can be game changing when it goes off.

Honestly I'm in 2 minds as to whether I make the cabbage the general and/or give him the artefact. I can just make the warchanter the general and have him take the d3 command points instead, same thing but better. Sure I lose the Waaagh! but if I'm honest it's so hard to get to make a difference now I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have a potential 2 extra CP's. Equally you could just take the 4+ CP on the weirdnob and grab hand of gork as a threat tool. (again if you don't protect your backline I'm going to TP stuff into it).

That said I really like the Fungoid tech, it's got the 4++ and the CP for free without the artefact. Plus the 20 points into a triumph which is super sweet. It's how much do I value hand of gork...realistically though I've been playing without it since forever so it's not like I'm losing something I'm not used to playing without.

So yeah I'm totally onboard with that fungoid train. Great shout there @Hot Peanut love it 🤩

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I was thinking about the Brutes current state and I had this idea that traditionally, we're always looking to HoG ardboys in (a big group preferably) but wouldn't a single group of 10 Brutes be a terrific target to HoG? They can either be TP'ed in the back or in the front/side to accelerate their movement. After that it's just a matter of timing to get in fight with them. I have a group of 10 and they look so damn cool, I thought this could be a great alternative. Meanwhile your ardboys take objectives and/or go faster in the frontlines, waiting to charge.

What do you think?

I'm also just considering taking a group of 10 instead of 2 units of 5. It feels like it would hit much much harder. I'd do this in Da Choppas though to get the extra bravery, otherwise it's too risky.

Edited by Jabbuk

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12 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I was thinking about the Brutes current state and I had this idea that traditionally, we're always looking to HoG ardboys in (a big group preferably) but wouldn't a single group of 10 Brutes be a terrific target to HoG? They can either be TP'ed in the back or in the front/side to accelerate their movement. After that it's just a matter of timing to get in fight with them. I have a group of 10 and they look so damn cool, I thought this could be a great alternative. Meanwhile your ardboys take objectives and/or go faster in the frontlines, waiting to charge.

What do you think?

I'm also just considering taking a group of 10 instead of 2 units of 5. It feels like it would hit much much harder. I'd do this in Da Choppas though to get the extra bravery, otherwise it's too risky.

My problem with HoG Brutes is you have to roll a natural 8 to get the charge in, and usually no hero is around to reroll.  Were as Boyz just need a 6.

 

I've only tried Brutes once in the new book, and I was not impressed with them

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13 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I was thinking about the Brutes current state and I had this idea that traditionally, we're always looking to HoG ardboys in (a big group preferably) but wouldn't a single group of 10 Brutes be a terrific target to HoG? They can either be TP'ed in the back or in the front/side to accelerate their movement. After that it's just a matter of timing to get in fight with them. I have a group of 10 and they look so damn cool, I thought this could be a great alternative. Meanwhile your ardboys take objectives and/or go faster in the frontlines, waiting to charge.

What do you think?

I'm also just considering taking a group of 10 instead of 2 units of 5. It feels like it would hit much much harder. I'd do this in Da Choppas though to get the extra bravery, otherwise it's too risky.

I've been thinking this too but they're gonna suffer more from Battleshock tests than Ardboyz without IP.  I'm always leery of moving Brutes away from Heroes.

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20 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I was thinking about the Brutes current state and I had this idea that traditionally, we're always looking to HoG ardboys in (a big group preferably) but wouldn't a single group of 10 Brutes be a terrific target to HoG? They can either be TP'ed in the back or in the front/side to accelerate their movement. After that it's just a matter of timing to get in fight with them. I have a group of 10 and they look so damn cool, I thought this could be a great alternative. Meanwhile your ardboys take objectives and/or go faster in the frontlines, waiting to charge.

What do you think?

I'm also just considering taking a group of 10 instead of 2 units of 5. It feels like it would hit much much harder. I'd do this in Da Choppas though to get the extra bravery, otherwise it's too risky.

10 brutes is 280 points, 15 Ardboys is 270.

I would take the 15 ardboys everyday with the only two exceptions. 1) your entire meta is gristlegore and Ogors. 2) you're running a brutefist.

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8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Quick note, I managed to ****** up the copy paste (I was knackered last night). I was big waaagh! With Big G as the general (corrected it).

A little bit but the only unit which isn't a threat with +1 damage is the 5 ardboys, even a unit of 10 or the block of 5 will mince stuff with it.

My biggest issue came down to how slow the army is without mighty destroyers, brutes limping across the battlefield being mopped up after the game is over etc. The only way I'd play big waaagh! Over IJ is if I was running a true hybrid list.

Honestly my biggest complaints were the 15 brutes rather than spells etc. I'd swap them out for 6 more GGs and possibly even another unit of 3. My next list will probably be something like this.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

2 big blocks of GGs, cabbage, weirdnob (maybe as general with 2 spells?) Hand of gork. I don't think you can overdo it on GGs they are just that good.

This was my previous list exept i ran Gruntas in 2 units of 3 instead of the one 6. In the end i just scrapped megaboss for more Gore-gruntas. I think i under used warchanter buff on Cabbage, but still 15 wounds against 45. Still a super nice list to play!

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14 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

If I remember correctly, you can charge at the end of your opponent's charge phase, not during his hero phase, right ? I have the book in french and we often have mis translation.

I really don't understand how to beat slaanesh. In fact, it has become so frustrating to have an army with so much lack of balance that I stopped tournaments/playing AoS and we're having fun playing narrative game with Warcry. Such shame since we finally have a book haha

Well the good news is, Leo Rautonen recently beat Slaanesh to win Bloodshed (80+ player event) and you can watch how he beat them :D

 

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On 11/3/2019 at 6:39 AM, Malakree said:

Game 2 was vs 30 hearthguard on starstrike. Stars landed in a blob under the hearthguard, real boring nothing of note happened.

That's the trouble with Starstrike 2019 (which I'm guessing you played), armies like Hearthguard can just jam up the middle and assume it will probably land there.  Which it usually does, and then it's a boring non-game with no real tactical decisions or ebb and flow.

Starstrike 2018 was way more interesting and strategic (as well as exciting).  If you committed to one third of the board, it was a genuine commitment - the risk / reward ratio seems to be off with SS19 imo.

Edited by PlasticCraic

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6 hours ago, Malakree said:

Honestly I'm in 2 minds as to whether I make the cabbage the general and/or give him the artefact. I can just make the warchanter the general and have him take the d3 command points instead, same thing but better. Sure I lose the Waaagh! but if I'm honest it's so hard to get to make a difference now I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have a potential 2 extra CP's. Equally you could just take the 4+ CP on the weirdnob and grab hand of gork as a threat tool. (again if you don't protect your backline I'm going to TP stuff into it).

I'm thinking the same thing, especially in lists that take Aetherquartz (which is a lot of us now). If a tournament's rules give points for letting your general live, a weirdnob is probably safer, too. Also, if there are useful realm CA's, it may worth having 2-3 more uses of those per game than a single waaagh (2-3 because you're actually saving 1 CP by not using it on the waaagh itself). Hysh's CA comes to mind, since you need to use it to guarantee your own safety.

I might just use as it a personal choice. I don't feel that I get many game-changing waaaghs, whereas multiple extra CP could easily make huge differences.

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7 hours ago, Malakree said:

That said I really like the Fungoid tech, it's got the 4++ and the CP for free without the artefact. Plus the 20 points into a triumph which is super sweet.

That was exactly why I replaced the Weirdnob with the Fungoid.

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14 hours ago, Malakree said:

One thing I have enjoyed over the weekend is a Warchanter with Get 'Em Beat and The Sash of Ten Paradises (+2" move). It meant that I could run him, make it a 6 and be going 12" when you combine that with the 12" bubble it's actually really easy to get off even with the long bomb engages. While it's very unreliable 😑 it can be game changing when it goes off.

What else are you gonna get from the Hysh realm? If not you might as well go for Aqshy and get Thermalrider's Cloak since it's +4 and fly.

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1 hour ago, Kasper said:

What else are you gonna get from the Hysh realm? If not you might as well go for Aqshy and get Thermalrider's Cloak since it's +4 and fly.

Aetherquartz Broach. Ie. The mandatory artefact...

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4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Aetherquartz Broach. Ie. The mandatory artefact...

Maybe I'm super noob, but why is this mandatory?

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5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Aetherquartz Broach. Ie. The mandatory artefact...

But weren't you also going Ironsunz? How are you gonna get 3? :P

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27 minutes ago, feraxil said:

Maybe I'm super noob, but why is this mandatory?

 Cause we’re command point starved. Mighty destroyers is amazing, and any methods you can implement to allow for greater Command Point generation greatly enhance our army. 

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2 hours ago, Kasper said:

But weren't you also going Ironsunz? How are you gonna get 3? :P

I wouldn't take the move artefact 😆 I just had a spare artefact and used it, I was commenting on how nice it actually was.

3 hours ago, feraxil said:

Maybe I'm super noob, but why is this mandatory?

@Gothmaug is right. Game 5 at Bloodshed it triggered 5 times in my first hero phase. So I spent 1 command point to basically have an entire extra move phase for free...

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4 hours ago, Hot Peanut said:

Great article, thanks for your effort, but you never mentioned Gore Gruntas... They got such a cool turnover and are finally a really great unit! 

Fixed! And thank you 😁

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A little of a side topic but I am super pumped to get the new Brutes models that will come in Beastgrave. I've gathered 4 images here that depicts them into that universe. 

One with a pony tail: 48-BG-ENG.png

Another one with a pony tail but with metal jaw: 366-BG-ENG.png

Here's one with more of a bone jaw, classic setup but with axes: 6-BG-ENG.png

And finally, a badass one with what looks like could be the leader of the band: 396-BG-ENG.png

Perhaps these Brutes will be better? :)

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