AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[EMMachine]

27 minutes ago, VonSmall said:

Talisman works at the start of the combat phase - it doesn't specifiy your turn.

The problem here is the weird way GW changed attack first and attack last.

Then both players have Abilities and attacks that work at the start of the Combatphase, the player who's turn it is makes all activations and attacks that apply at the start of the combat phase.

So if the Gristlegore General is in close combat with the bearer of doppleganger cloak and it is the Flesh Eater Courts turn, the General can attack before the doubleganger cloak can even be activated.

It is basicly this:

Quote

Q: Some abilities allow or require a unit to fight at the start of
the combat phase, or the end of the combat phase. How exactly
does this work? What happens if two or more units have to fight
at the start or the end of the phase?
A: Units that fight at the start or the end of the combat
phase make a pile-in move and then attack with their
melee weapons before the players start picking any other
units to fight in that phase, or after the players have
picked all other units to fight in that phase, respectively.
So, first you pile in and make attacks with the units that
are to fight at the start of the phase, then the players
alternate picking units to fight with, starting with the
player whose turn is taking place, and lastly you pile in
and make attacks with units that make attacks at the end
of the combat phase. If there are several units fighting at
the start or the end of the phase, the player whose turn
is taking place attacks with all of their units in the order
of their choice, and then their opponent does the same.
Note that abilities used at the start or the end of a phase
still count as being used in the phase in question.
For example, the Flesh-eater Courts Savage Strike
command trait allows a general to fight at the start of
the combat phase, while the Stormcast Eternals Sequitor
Aetheric Channelling ability is used at the start of
the combat phase too. In the Flesh-eater Courts turn,
the Savage Strike command trait would take effect
before the Sequitor Aetheric Channelling ability. In
the Stormcast Eternals turn, the Sequitor Aetheric
Channelling ability would take effect before the Savage
Strike command trait.

 

[VonSmall]

Thanks for that - I'd still argue that the Cloak should work. It wouldn't stop a FEC unit for example striking another unit first other than the bearer. The wording of the item also doesn't suggest it is activated as such - rather that during the combat phase the bearer can't be attacked until he/she has attacked.

[EMMachine]

7 minutes ago, VonSmall said:

Thanks for that - I'd still argue that the Cloak should work. It wouldn't stop a FEC unit for example striking another unit first other than the bearer. The wording of the item also doesn't suggest it is activated as such - rather that during the combat phase the bearer can't be attacked until he/she has attacked.

I think you missed the errata for the doubleganger cloak from December 2018

Quote

Page 84 – Artefacts of Power, Relics of Ulgu,
Doppelganger Cloak
Change the rules text to:
‘Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you
can say that the bearer will put on the cloak. If you do
so, the bearer cannot be chosen as the target of attacks
made with melee weapons unless the bearer has made
any attacks earlier in that phase.’

Since the Errata you can activate it once per game.

[VonSmall]

4 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think you missed the errata for the doubleganger cloak from December 2018

Since the Errata you can activate it once per game.

Ah fair enough, cheers for the clarification.

[Dingar]

I pointed out the same thing EMMachine pointed out lol, I'll go back to lurking

Edited June 25, 2019 by Dingar
Took too long to post, someone else posted what I was posting!

[Malakree]

15 minutes ago, VonSmall said:

Ah fair enough, cheers for the clarification.

Sorry I assumed that you were up-to-date with all the faqs and erratas etc or I'd have gone a little more in-depth. It still works on your turn just not his.

[Luzgurbel]

So, to sum up, can we use the cloak against the gristlegore general?

[Rock Lobster]

 

10 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

So, to sum up, can we use the cloak against the gristlegore general?

In short, on your turn yes as you get to choose what activates first a the start of the combat phase, on their turn no as they will choose what gets to activate first in the combat phase.

However, on their turn if you buy them a beer and ask pretty please maybe they will allow you to activate your cloak first and kill their killer general...

[Malakree]

28 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

In short, on your turn yes as you get to choose what activates first a the start of the combat phase, on their turn no as they will choose what gets to activate first in the combat phase.

However, on their turn if you buy them a beer and ask pretty please maybe they will allow you to activate your cloak first and kill their killer general...

Actually he has to activate everything he wants to do at the start of the phase before you can activate anything. So if he lets you activate your cloak then he misses out on the ability to activate at the start of the turn and has to do so in normal sequencing.

[broche]

7 hours ago, Luzgurbel said:

Is the Aetherquartz Brooch no longer worth?

I would argue it's more mandatory than before, as you have so much CP dump (extra attack, AND free move or free attack in hero phase)

[Rock Lobster]

48 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Actually he has to activate everything he wants to do at the start of the phase before you can activate anything. So if he lets you activate your cloak then he misses out on the ability to activate at the start of the turn and has to do so in normal sequencing.

...better make it 2 beers then...

[Scurvydog]

Eh players who play FeC like that just plays to win anyway. Let him win fast and proceed to play a real game with someone else  

[Andrew G]

Played 3 games over the weekend with the new GHB. I decided to go with more balanced lists, as I tend to gravitate to the skew battalions for competitive play  (Gorefist, 'ardfist, ),  and wanted to give the Megabattalions a fair shake. 

Lists:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Live to Fight 
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
- 20x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 10x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Ironsunz (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Bloodtoofs (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
 

Not much of a difference between the two, the Ironsunz one obviously is a little more geared towards having an extremely scary MK in and outside the Waaagh! round. The Bloodtoofs is more geared for a traditional Waaagh! Bomb and keeping the MK in the back for an additional turn or two. 

Won all three games (Double Keeper Slaneesh, Mixed GG list: big units of bounderz and stabberz  w/ supporting pieces, and finally a Blisterkin list ...  I'm guessing he's preparing for the Gristlegore nerf in July.) Anyway, I had a few takeaways.

1: The 30 'ardboy pin w/ Ironsunz is extremely strong. I'm still experimenting with exactly how much I can safely engage, but in every game I was able to clear 2+ chaff screens and lock in a scary horde by piling barely within 3".  

2:  I still think it's necessary to put a MW save item on the MK.  The offensive loadout I went with in the Ironsunz build was complete overkill,  I don't think I even needed to swing w/ the fists or tail once.  On the other hand, I was constantly worried about the MK going down to MW in each game I played with Ironsunz, and the lists I played against weren't even particularly geared for MW output. 

3: As I anticipated, I used Mighty Destroyers once over the course of the three games, and overall think it's a slight nerf in the context of the way I play the game.  The guaranteed movement is nice in some cases, but most of the lists I ran had an 80% to 90% chance of activating Mighty Destroyers once during the round.  Going from an 80% chance but free, to a 100% chance but costing 1 cp is a slight nerf to me.  I know I'm completing discounting the ability to pile-in and attack in the hero, but with Warchanter/Waaagh! having no effect in the hero phase extremely limits its offensive usage. All-in-All, it's still a great ability that can win you games but it's annoying siphoning resources away from Waaagh!  

Anyway, going to a local tournament next weekend and I'm thinking about bringing a 'ardfist list I've been working on. Haven't locked down the details, but I'm anticipating a bunch of Skaven/FEC players going out for one last round before the July FAQ.  The only real solution I've found against them is just to send meat at them and hope they make a mistake... I'll need some luck. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Andrew G

[broche]

@Andrew G nice work! My current list is almost the same as your Ironsunz, i just did not decide on trait yet, but i'll probably go with Mirrored Cuirass for MW protection. Do you think Ironclad is still worth it considering Fungoid is likely to cast mystic shield on Krusha anyway?

[Andrew G]

17 minutes ago, broche said:

@Andrew G nice work! My current list is almost the same as your Ironsunz, i just did not decide on trait yet, but i'll probably go with Mirrored Cuirass for MW protection. Do you think Ironclad is still worth it considering Fungoid is likely to cast mystic shield on Krusha anyway?

I think I'm just going to go the MK loadout from the Bloodtoofs list from here out, so Prophet/Cuirass. 
That said, I think Ironclad still has use. I'm throwing mystic shield on the 'ardboyz the first turn or two in most cases, so Ironclad will definitely net some value.
If I was in a shooting heavy meta I'd probably go Ironclad, or even consider dropping Hysh for an Ethereal Amulet+Ironclad. 

[VonSmall]

I had added the extra 10 Ard boys in rather than a 4th unit of GG for objective holding as well as to boost the cast/unbind of the shaman. In just about every game you'll have an objective you just sit on and 20 wounds seemed better than the 15 from GG.  Alternatively you cap it with the shaman and use the Ard Boyz to screen teleport/reinforcements (can 10 are boys cover more ground than 3 GG or is it about the same?)

Edited June 26, 2019 by VonSmall

[broche]

So just got my copy. I think I like the overall change. We did not discuss a lot the endless spell, but the price is now much more accurate now.  I think Ravenak Maw, Purple Sun and Lifeswarm could worth it.  With hand of gork and Mighty destroyer, we have the option for extra range in hero phase. Cog at 80 loose a bit of value, but is still worthy in certain list.

[Rock Lobster]

6 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Played 3 games over the weekend with the new GHB. I decided to go with more balanced lists, as I tend to gravitate to the skew battalions for competitive play  (Gorefist, 'ardfist, ),  and wanted to give the Megabattalions a fair shake. 

Lists:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Live to Fight 
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
- 20x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 10x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Ironsunz (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
 

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Bloodtoofs (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
 

Not much of a difference between the two, the Ironsunz one obviously is a little more geared towards having an extremely scary MK in and outside the Waaagh! round. The Bloodtoofs is more geared for a traditional Waaagh! Bomb and keeping the MK in the back for an additional turn or two. 

Won all three games (Double Keeper Slaneesh, Mixed GG list: big units of bounderz and stabberz  w/ supporting pieces, and finally a Blisterkin list ...  I'm guessing he's preparing for the Gristlegore nerf in July.) Anyway, I had a few takeaways.

1: The 30 'ardboy pin w/ Ironsunz is extremely strong. I'm still experimenting with exactly how much I can safely engage, but in every game I was able to clear 2+ chaff screens and lock in a scary horde by piling barely within 3".  

2:  I still think it's necessary to put a MW save item on the MK.  The offensive loadout I went with in the Ironsunz build was complete overkill,  I don't think I even needed to swing w/ the fists or tail once.  On the other hand, I was constantly worried about the MK going down to MW in each game I played with Ironsunz, and the lists I played against weren't even particularly geared for MW output. 

3: As I anticipated, I used Mighty Destroyers once over the course of the three games, and overall think it's a slight nerf in the context of the way I play the game.  The guaranteed movement is nice in some cases, but most of the lists I ran had an 80% to 90% chance of activating Mighty Destroyers once during the round.  Going from an 80% chance but free, to a 100% chance but costing 1 cp is a slight nerf to me.  I know I'm completing discounting the ability to pile-in and attack in the hero, but with Warchanter/Waaagh! having no effect in the hero phase extremely limits its offensive usage. All-in-All, it's still a great ability that can win you games but it's annoying siphoning resources away from Waaagh!  

Anyway, going to a local tournament next weekend and I'm thinking about bringing a 'ardfist list I've been working on. Haven't locked down the details, but I'm anticipating a bunch of Skaven/FEC players going out for one last round before the July FAQ.  The only real solution I've found against them is just to send meat at them and hope they make a mistake... I'll need some luck. 

I am really pleased to see you put those lists into action, all very solid. I am particularly taken with the Ironsunz approach (partly out of blood toofs fatigue after a year) and I think it has real legs for those tanky ardboyz, and a boss that has a little more survivability. I like your take on the protection verses offense. With the rerolls to wound and extra attacks you really dont necessarily need the extra oomph of the rend. That 5+ against mortal wounds is great, at his average of 16 wounds, it will take 24 mortal wounds to bring him down, meaning you can tank an entire skaven army's ranged mortal wound output for a turn and live potentially if you desperately need him to be somewhere exposed. He even has the potential to survive the girstlegore general if they dont roll well which is a claim few other characters can make.

Did you feel the Brutes upgrades were worth it (aside from rule of cool) compared to arboyz or would you have rather had a CP in retrospect? Do you think you get more value out of the fungoid and the potential for a mystic shield on the ardboyz or a 2nd warchanter for the 2+ to hit when they go in? I am genuinely on the fence so actually interested in your perspective.

[broche]

So I came up with this list I find interesting. It's less about waaagh bomb (but still an option) and more about having a high MW output. If both spell goes off you can hit above 20 mortal with the MK charge (and potentially charge again)

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Hulking Muscle-bound Brute 
- Artefact: Luminary Rod 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
- Spell: Power of Da Waaagh!
20 x Orruk Ardboys (280)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Ironfist (160)
Ironsunz (80)
Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

[Luzgurbel]

Why don't merge up 2 units of Brutes into 1 of 10 and use the teleport on them?

[Andrew G]

15 hours ago, VonSmall said:

I had added the extra 10 Ard boys in rather than a 4th unit of GG for objective holding as well as to boost the cast/unbind of the shaman. In just about every game you'll have an objective you just sit on and 20 wounds seemed better than the 15 from GG.  Alternatively you cap it with the shaman and use the Ard Boyz to screen teleport/reinforcements (can 10 are boys cover more ground than 3 GG or is it about the same?)

I could see going something like 30 x 'ardboyz, 10x 'ardboyz, 10x 'ardboyz, 3x GG, 3x GG being optimal. My thought process behind the 4x3GGs is they can spread for objectives and still have the speed to consolidate on the Waaagh! bomb turn/turns, but I could see having some more bodies for objectives, board coverage, and shaman buff could be better. 

14 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Did you feel the Brutes upgrades were worth it (aside from rule of cool) compared to arboyz or would you have rather had a CP in retrospect? Do you think you get more value out of the fungoid and the potential for a mystic shield on the ardboyz or a 2nd warchanter for the 2+ to hit when they go in? I am genuinely on the fence so actually interested in your perspective.

4

Mixed feelings on the Brutes... I don't think they're a bad choice but I'm probably switching them out for 'ardboyz and buying a CP.  The Brutes really do shine in the later turns after Waaagh! bomb, having a unit that can dish out respectable damage with only 1 or 2 Waaaghs does have value, but I think of them as a "win more" option; most games are going to be decided before the Brutes get involved (There are some notable exceptions. For example, against Idoneth alpha-strike they're obviously beasts). I've written at about this at length but I generally value bodies, speed, and survivability over damage output when considering IJ units. 

On the second point, iI would also take the Fungoid over the second warchanter. It's not just mystic shield(which is great), but also the CP generation. You're going to get a lot more damage output from an extra 2.5 CP over 5 turns than +1 hit over 5 turns. If you're playing with realm spells, it goes further in favor of the fungoid. 

[Luzgurbel]

23 hours ago, broche said:

I would argue it's more mandatory than before, as you have so much CP dump (extra attack, AND free move or free attack in hero phase)

So, we are stuck in the realm of Light.

 

What other artifacts are worth of that realm? I'm looking at the Luminary Rod, Sunblade, Blade of Symmetry, Mirrored Cuirass, Sash of the Ten Paradises and Prysm of Amyntok.

[newsun]

42 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

So, we are stuck in the realm of Light.

 

What other artifacts are worth of that realm? I'm looking at the Luminary Rod, Sunblade, Blade of Symmetry, Mirrored Cuirass, Sash of the Ten Paradises and Prysm of Amyntok.

Zedek has seen the light and it's all coming from Aqshy!

[broche]

50 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

Why don't merge up 2 units of Brutes into 1 of 10 and use the teleport on them?

That would be a totally valid option. I like to play brutes in squad of 5 to mitigate their low bravery. Also you get 3 brutes boss instead of 2, and Brute boss is almost half the damage of the whole squad, so I prefered to go with 20 ardboys

51 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

So, we are stuck in the realm of Light.

Yeah, but I suspect they are gonna do an errata in the next FAQ (they should seriously limit it to once per hero phase). I think the only other valuable item are Etheral Amulet and Ignax scale. But Hysh have the mirror cuirass, not as good as scale but similar.  Luminary rod is also playable (but really niche). Sash on a Megaboss on foot is usable. 

I think if you're playing a low mortal wound/high rend shooting meta, Etheral amulet + ironclad would not be a bad choice.

 

[Carlos]

Hi,

I play with Ironjawz, but I have a question about the Allegiance Abilitie: Smashing and Bashings.

- How many i can use this abilitie in a combat phace ??

- For example, whith the Unit A destroyed an enemy unit and i select another friendly unit for atack and also destroyed another enemi unit, i can used abilitie again?

Thank.