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AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

It's to show how much harder gordrakk scales with each SfV stack than the standard MK.

Sorry, but the graph is marketing scam ;) 

Against 4+ save, you would get an extra 0.5 damage from the SFV... On a model already doing like 12 damages against 4+... An increase of this magnitude will doubtfuly have any effect on the game state (especially considering the game will already be 1-2 turn mature)

I think Gordrack main advantage is that you get much better odds of killing Heros (especially wizard) without needing extra buff

Let say you're trying to one shot Arkham against Pertiflex elite (3+ save with 6++). A regular Krusha with mean_un will average a bit above 11 damage (so a bit above 50% odd of killing him). So you would either need a WC buff , spend a CP for a +1 to hit or use an aggressive artefact/trait  to be safe. Meanwhile Gordrack would average 14.5 damage by himself, without any buff (and with better consistency)

Same logic would apply to Terrorgheist or Keeper let say (assuming you smash and bash the screen to by pass locus). Those might be better exemple as those army have class canon screen.

 

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22 minutes ago, broche said:

Sorry, but the graph is marketing scam ;) 

Against 4+ save, you would get an extra 0.5 damage from the SFV... On a model already doing like 12 damages against 4+... An increase of this magnitude will doubtfuly have any effect on the game state (especially considering the game will already be 1-2 turn mature)

You're right that at 1 stack it's only a ~0.4 damage increase vs a 4+ save unbuffed. However at 2/3 stacks it's suddenly becoming noticeable even vs a 2+ save, if you throw the WC buff in there suddenly the scaling becomes far higher.

28 minutes ago, broche said:

I think Gordrack main advantage is that you get much better odds of killing Heros (especially wizard) without needing extra buff

I deliberately didn't add that in because it's situational but yes, it makes him way better vs wizards. The point was to emphasise that the SfV scaling is noticeably better on Gordrakk WITHOUT including the fact he is just better vs heroes/wizards which have a 2+ save.

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4 hours ago, broche said:

I'm pretty sure you don't get the extra move in Hero phase (unless they change the spell wording but if I remember correctly it's state next movement phase)

I might be getting it wrong but the way I read it is:

Breath of Gorkamorka states that it doubles (triples if you role a double) the units Move characteristic. So in the hero phase you have suddenly a Move characteritic of 20 (or 30) until your next hero phase. Then (still on the hero phase as stated in the Mighty Destroyers description)  you use Might Destroyers to make a Normal Move (another 20 or 30  in). Then on your movement pahse you make your normal move for (another 20 (or 30). Minimum 60, maximum 90 in move  by the end of your movement phase.

Edited by Planar
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1 hour ago, Planar said:

I might be getting it wrong but the way I read it is:

Breath of Gorkamorka states that it doubles (triples if you role a double) the units Move characteristic. So in the hero phase you have suddenly a Move characteritic of 20 (or 30) until your next hero phase. Then (still on the hero phase as stated in the Mighty Destroyers description)  you use Might Destroyers to make a Normal Move (another 20 or 30  in). Then on your movement pahse you make your normal move for (another 20 (or 30). Minimum 60, maximum 90 in move  by the end of your movement phase.

@broche 

@Planar is correct. Breath of Gorkamorka doesn't have any restrictions on it, it just doubles the move characteristic. 

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Was passing my local store today and noticed a bunch of well painted Brutes in the window. Makes me want to further fresh out my collection. 
 

don’t have the new book but how viable are blocks of Brutes in a more elite style army? 
 

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14 minutes ago, Gibs said:

Was passing my local store today and noticed a bunch of well painted Brutes in the window. Makes me want to further fresh out my collection. 
 

don’t have the new book but how viable are blocks of Brutes in a more elite style army? 
 

Brutes are... okay. They're not the worst. I play them often because I'm one who likes to play what's cool than what is the most effective. 

Basically as long as you dont mind that Ardboyz and Gore-Gruntas almost completely overshadow them.

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1 hour ago, Waaaaaaght? said:

I am very sorry everyone, but I see everyone talking about a cabbage. What is this?  A special tactic, or a unit setup?

Cabbages are Maw Krushas. They got the nickname from their roundish, textured shape. I've also heard them called frog dragons/frog daemons. Example of our leafy boi:

Image result for green maw krusha

Edited by TALegion
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What's up IJ boys,

I'm having an end of year 2v2 game at 1500 and my teammate and I (he's BoC) are splitting 750 each. I wanted to try something different and flavourful (and also field my 10 brutes, lel). I tried a few combinations and I was always either at 760 or too low for my taste. Here's my list:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Choppas
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Checked Out
- Artefact: Megaskull Staff
- Lore of the Weird: Wrath of Gork
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Total: 750 / 750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 67
 

I like that I can buff all my MSU (cept GGs) with the Warchanter for a CP, that I can reroll all my charges and that WoG is kind of optimized by all my small units. What you guys think of it? (Although I just realized that WoG casts on an 8 so it's way too unreliable if I don't have any + to cast)

I might just take this list then, which is pure melee and no cast.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Warchanter (110)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 740 / 750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 63
 

Edited by Jabbuk
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I am in a little bit of a delema. I have the units to create a brawl in a 1k point army, but I could also make an Ardfist battalion as well. 

Which one should I go for? I know the Ironjawz waaagh! Is very good, but the ability to make more Ardboys is very good too!

Also, if I do go Ardfist, should I use green puke on them to get the ardboys back, or not.

Edit: I am also trying to make a solid 2k list without mk, and want some advice on how I should build it, like big waaagh or IJ or what.

Edited by Waaaaaaght?
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On 12/12/2019 at 8:41 PM, Malakree said:

An extra dice on his cabbage is really nice. Especially with mean Un putting it up to 3 damage.

There's a few things which make his scaling better than the standard boss. Most obvious one being that he gets 2 extra attacks instead of one. This is important if your putting the WC +1 damage on him. With 2 SfV stacks that's 14 attacks from just him. 

Smasha is basically equivalent to the standard MK attack. It's d3 instead of 2 but it hits on 2s not 3s.

Kunnin looks mediocre but again the +1 damage makes it a slightly better version of the unbuffed MK weapon. More importantly there are so many wizards floating around at the moment that a lot of the time it's just going to be throwing out d3 MW instead.

He has the +1 wound MK trait just baked into his warscroll and can also destroy terrain cover bonus which is equivalent to +1 rend in some situations. Also in big waaagh! The 6++ really helps his survivability.

The way I look at it, you're paying 80 points to get a unique trait and artefact on a cabbage. Given that without a battalion the second cabbage has neither it's not a bad option if you can afford the points.

I used to think Big G was awesome too until I did quite a few games with him (I know you play him a lot). Sure he is a beast when he charges a hero and he wrecks face but from my experience the ordinary MK wrecks face too. The damage comparison you guys are making between them is irrelevant in my games since it is often overkill and the biggest problem is keeping him alive for more than 1 round of my opponent focusing him. That's where Ethereal Amulet or even Ignax's Scales (depending on meta/matchup) really come into play.

His 6 points in BW is also irrelevant in my book since you have to go out of your way not to have all bonuses active by round 2. And Brutish Cunning is just too good not to pick in BW. It is just way too many points being pooled into 1 unit. In some of my games I even find the ordinary MK to be too many points and I often consider switching him out for the guy on foot and more bodies on the table.

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5 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I used to think Big G was awesome too until I did quite a few games with him (I know you play him a lot). Sure he is a beast when he charges a hero and he wrecks face but from my experience the ordinary MK wrecks face too. The damage comparison you guys are making between them is irrelevant in my games since it is often overkill and the biggest problem is keeping him alive for more than 1 round of my opponent focusing him. That's where Ethereal Amulet or even Ignax's Scales (depending on meta/matchup) really come into play.

His 6 points in BW is also irrelevant in my book since you have to go out of your way not to have all bonuses active by round 2. And Brutish Cunning is just too good not to pick in BW. It is just way too many points being pooled into 1 unit. In some of my games I even find the ordinary MK to be too many points and I often consider switching him out for the guy on foot and more bodies on the table.

So my argument is specifically this.

  1. If you are using 2 maw krushas
  2. And you don't have 2 artefacts
  3. Then Gordrakk is an option to functionally gain a second Artefact/Command Trait for 80 points.

I still love him but I'm actually not going to be running any Cabbages at slaughter. They have decided to remove the realm artefacts, my poor aethercrutch broach :( , so I'm going for a big waaagh! army instead. Especially with the rise of petrifex bonereapers.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!

Leaders
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Master of the Weird
- Artefact: Shamanic Skullcape
- Lore of the Weird: Wrath of Gork
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
The Burning Head (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141

This is what I'm looking at running, if I can be bothered to paint another 3gg's I might swap the 10 brutes for 6 GG's, drop the Ironfist to a Gorefist and remove The Burning Head.

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On 12/15/2019 at 3:34 AM, Jabbuk said:

What's up IJ boys,

I'm having an end of year 2v2 game at 1500 and my teammate and I (he's BoC) are splitting 750 each. I wanted to try something different and flavourful (and also field my 10 brutes, lel). I tried a few combinations and I was always either at 760 or too low for my taste. Here's my list:

Allegiance: Ironjawz

 

- Warclan: Ironsunz
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Warchanter (110)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 740 / 750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 63
 

I did a 2v2 not too long ago where we both fielded 1.000 pts. each. My friend brought his Seraphon so magic was his thing and his job was interrupting casts/removing endless spells. I did the killing in the combat phase. Do you know what his list will look like? Having some casters to counter armies that rely on buffs or on the magic phase is nice.

Otherwise I would go with the second list you have and maybe reconsider the clan. You likely have little to no CPs so turn 1 combat is unlikely unless you both just move max distance ahead. I would personally skip Ironsunz (you wont really have CPs to make use of the countercharge CA anyways) and if you don't count on turn 1 combat, Ironsunz doesn't give you much. I would go no clan and grab Brutish Cunning + Ethereal Amulet on your Megaboss. It will make him hard to deal with in such a low pts. game imo.

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8 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So my argument is specifically this.

  1. If you are using 2 maw krushas
  2. And you don't have 2 artefacts
  3. Then Gordrakk is an option to functionally gain a second Artefact/Command Trait for 80 points.

I still love him but I'm actually not going to be running any Cabbages at slaughter. They have decided to remove the realm artefacts, my poor aethercrutch broach :( , so I'm going for a big waaagh! army instead. Especially with the rise of petrifex bonereapers.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!

Leaders
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Master of the Weird
- Artefact: Shamanic Skullcape
- Lore of the Weird: Wrath of Gork
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
The Burning Head (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141

This is what I'm looking at running, if I can be bothered to paint another 3gg's I might swap the 10 brutes for 6 GG's, drop the Ironfist to a Gorefist and remove The Burning Head.

If you were talking about lists with 2 MKs that is a different story for sure.

 

Why are you going with 2 Weirdnobs? Are you banking on doing a lot of work with Wrath of Gork? If I was going BW with multiple casts I would for sure grab a Wordokk at least to dabble into the BS spell lore. It is honestly quite insane.

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2 hours ago, Kasper said:

If you were talking about lists with 2 MKs that is a different story for sure.

 

Why are you going with 2 Weirdnobs? Are you banking on doing a lot of work with Wrath of Gork? If I was going BW with multiple casts I would for sure grab a Wordokk at least to dabble into the BS spell lore. It is honestly quite insane.

The weirdnob general has +2 to cast, with zap em I can bring that to +4. That puts wrath of gork on a CV4.

With balewind and my army setup it's a long range, and rolling 16 dice. That gives me the ability to delete characters or things like units of 10 mortek guards. 

The other one is my third artefact carrier, since no realm artefacts means that warchanters cant have one and brings hand of gork.

I've also got the wurgog prophets who brings the BS lore and his mental fist of gork spell.

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3 hours ago, TheWilddog said:

Test model for some Iron Jawz to go along with my Bonesplitterz in a  Big Waaagh. Was a blast to paint up and was happy with how he turned out. Just need to start grinding on his friends.

DEB599E8-9DC4-4696-AB9B-6CC8E88753EF.jpeg

0391122A-0DB0-4DBD-9F5E-E222C9228D1E.jpeg

I think that's awesome - the rusty metal and weathering especially.  Great job, man

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Ran this list at a 2-day, 5-game GT this week (though I only played 4):

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Loud 'Un
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Kunnin'
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 2x Gore Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
Ironfist (160)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133

The tournament itself was about 20 players, so nothing hugely competitive. There are a handful of very good, highly-ranked players, but I largely avoided them, going 1-3 plus a bye. It's maybe not fair to speculate, but I am pretty confident that I could have won my last game vs. the opponents I would have faced. Additionally, there was at least one game where I blundered horribly and lost my Maw Krusha turn-1 to 30 boingrot bounderz  (I had no idea that they did mortals for every model in the unit, even if only 1 ends up in base-to-base contact after the charge). If that had gone differently, I think I could have won, ending 2-2 overall. Game-by-game:

Round 1 vs. Mawtribes (Focal Points)
My opponent was largely unfamiliar with new-book Ironjawz and didn't know how much more powerful they had become. He was able to make turn 1 charges, wiping out a screen of 10 ardboyz that I set up to block. I was able to wipe out a 12-man squad of ogres with 10 WC-buffed brutes, cover an entire flank of the board with my cabbage, and go around the other side with the 6 GGs, who are pretty independent as the Ironfist leader. After that, I got the double turn with 3 different units in combat - I MD'd three times, wiping out nearly half of his army. From there, it was a pretty clear victory. I'd chalk this up up largely to double-turn luck, my opponent not knowing what new IJs do, and IJ having the raw power to take advantage of that mistake.

 

Round 2 vs. OBR (Duality of Death)
My opponent brought 3 catapults, 60 mortek guard, a harvester, and some heroes. This was an extremely painful match with me having no cover, losing both warchanters on his turn 1, and losing the weirdnob turn 2. I had an opportunity to Hand of Gork some ardboyz into 2 catapults, but I failed the cast twice. I struggle vs. OBRs and am not sure what I could have done differently, as it seems like I would have just been overpowered regardless of what I did. Either way, my opponent was a nice guy, so I had a good time. I'm definitely going to spend some time thinking about how to best approach OBRs, since I believe that they'll be a common army to face.

 

Round 3 vs. Khorne (Blood and Glory)
I got slaughtered here. He brought an exalter greater daemon of khorne, skarbrand, and bunch of gors and centigors. I was unfamiliar with the 6-inch pile and double fighting for the daemons, which wiped out my whole ardboy screen and all of the gorgruntas before I could really fight back. Long-story-short, be played his list well, I didn't know what to expect and responded very poorly, and he wiped me out because of it. Hard to say much more, since I shook hands at the start of turn 2. Lesson learned.

 

Round vs. all-squig Gloomspite (Battle for the Pass)
Maybe the most fun game of sigmar that I've played. It started off terribly with me losing the Maw Krusha without it having done anything, so I thought it was hopeless. His boingrots were very open in the center of the field, though, allowing me to countercharge and fight consistently in the following turns. It was a slow grind of attrition, which I was winning in the long-run, but his mobility and numbers let him hold the objectives better than me. By the end of the game, he had nearly nothing left, and I had a handful of gore-gruntas and ardboyz, but he won with more VPs by the end of turn 5. Had the maw krusha survived to fight even once or twice, I believe that I could've won, but it's hard to say. Either way, I wasn't mad at the end, because it was such an entertaining game of constant fights, charges, teleports, and racing to capture objectives in every corner of the map.

 

Overall impressions:
- I'm still very new to 2k games and tournaments, so a lot of my losses were due to mistakes. I clearly played poorly at times and was caught off guard by abilities that I was unfamiliar with. This isn't a surprise, though, and I'm taking all of the losses as learning experiences.
- Hand of Gork is great, but when you get unlucky, the weirdnob feels like a waste. I failed 7/9 of my attempted casts (not including unbinds), and that severely lowered my potential across my games. A 7+ cast should be about 59% chance, which is decent but unreliable. I've considered running the +1 cast artefact on the weirdnob (making a 7+ cast a 72% chance), but I can't bring myself to drop the aetherquartz or sunblessed armor - both are so impactful that I can't imagine the list functioning in the same way without them.
- I really, really liked using Dead Kunnin for my command trait. The extra command points are very, very useful for when you need the extra damage from the boss's +1 to, rerolling 1s to hit, more MDs, or anything else. It's also more opportunities for Aetherquartz, upping its impact. I rarely/never miss having access to the Waaagh and feel like Dead Kunnin the right choice for me.
- Ardboyz may be preferable to Brutes in most circumstances, but when they can charge into things with 4+ wounds, Brutes are much more deadly. I like my 10-man unit for that reason alone, keeping them behind the ardboyz and setting me up to charge enemy units that I've already locked in combat. The only huge gripe that I have with them is their bravery 6, which often means that I need to spend command points on inspiring presence.

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Change to the Ardfist batallion:

image.png.a82a97d03e92af6039f16473321c3d59.png

 

So it can no longer be spammed. Small units is being discouraged since a unit of 5 boyz can't suddenly turn into a 10 man unit. Also can't recycle infinitely since the new unit isn't added to the batallion, but to the army instead.

Edited by Kasper
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9 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Change to the Ardfist batallion:

image.png.a82a97d03e92af6039f16473321c3d59.png

 

So it can no longer be spammed. Small units is being discouraged since a unit of 5 boyz can't suddenly turn into a 10 man unit. Also can't recycle infinitely since the new unit isn't added to the batallion, but to the army instead.

Honestly, is there any point in running this now? Why would you pay 1 CP with a 50% chance of it doing nothing?

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13 minutes ago, TALegion said:

Honestly, is there any point in running this now? Why would you pay 1 CP with a 50% chance of it doing nothing?

I mean we all knew it was cheesy as hell to run 5x5 Boyz and spam CPs to flood the edges of the board and it was 100% not intended to be played that way.

I could still see it being worthwhile in a BW army with bigger sized units where you don't have *that* valuable CP spenders. I would have liked it to be spmmable until you succeed in a 4+ roll though, just to combat bad streaks.

Edited by Kasper
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