Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Requizen]

The Skyborne Slayers requires all the units but the Relictor, the Venator, the Prosecutors, and the Raptors, so I likely won't change any of those units. And yes, I'd prefer to bring Retributors over Decimators as well. If I had the points for the Gryph-Hound, that'd be a good pick as well, hadn't really thought of it.

[Erdemo86]

And skyborne slayers are not listed in the new battletome. I dont know if you can play them in tournaments. Same like warrior brotherhood.

[Requizen]

I'm waiting to hear back from Adepticon on the matter, but it's a Battalion with points in TGH and was from GA:Order, so it should be legal still.

I hope so, I much prefer it to Hammerstrike atm.

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[Immersturm]

I thought Skyborne Slayers is a thing of the past?

Anyway, i did a few games against Tzeentch today and I was sorely disappointed in not only the new units but the book as a whole. Hurricanes performed poorly as they struggled to get past 4+ saves or the 2 wounds Tzangors. While the Longstrikes were far superior, but they suffered from the inherent problem of the Raptors, they are fragile as sin. 2 sets of 3 Skyfires were way faster and crippled my Longstrikes in the second game (used Hurricanes in the first) before they could get anything done.

The Aquilor was amazing. His Command Trait is very good, but you need a good unit to pair it with. As of right now I am only considering the Raptors. The Palladors have solid mobility, but they ranged output with the Javelin is nothing to write home about. They died too quickly with their 4+ saves without modifiers. I would've preferred Dracoths almost every time.

The stars of the game was the Hammerstrike. They are the only way to deploy close to the enemy without restrictions. Without them the games would've been over very quickly, but even they could'nt make up for the defficiencies of the rest.

Overall, I am a bit peeved. Not only were Tzeentch and Beastclaws a massive power creep, but now SCE have been neutered, because they lost their biggest advantage, the alpha strike. This new 9" limitation kills it, because SCE have no access to bubble wraps and blobs and most of their units are too soft these days. They win or lose in the first few turns. Contrary to popular belief, they are some of the softest armies because of their painfully low model-count.

Take away the new units and what you have is a worse SCE army than we had before. It may not be as bad as I made it sound, but it is far from what I expected.

[Erdemo86]

1 hour ago, Immersturm said:

I thought Skyborne Slayers is a thing of the past?

Anyway, i did a few games against Tzeentch today and I was sorely disappointed in not only the new units but the book as a whole. Hurricanes performed poorly as they struggled to get past 4+ saves or the 2 wounds Tzangors. While the Longstrikes were far superior, but they suffered from the inherent problem of the Raptors, they are fragile as sin. 2 sets of 3 Skyfires were way faster and crippled my Longstrikes in the second game (used Hurricanes in the first) before they could get anything done.

The Aquilor was amazing. His Command Trait is very good, but you need a good unit to pair it with. As of right now I am only considering the Raptors. The Palladors have solid mobility, but they ranged output with the Javelin is nothing to write home about. They died too quickly with their 4+ saves without modifiers. I would've preferred Dracoths almost every time.

The stars of the game was the Hammerstrike. They are the only way to deploy close to the enemy without restrictions. Without them the games would've been over very quickly, but even they could'nt make up for the defficiencies of the rest.

Overall, I am a bit peeved. Not only were Tzeentch and Beastclaws a massive power creep, but now SCE have been neutered, because they lost their biggest advantage, the alpha strike. This new 9" limitation kills it, because SCE have no access to bubble wraps and blobs and most of their units are too soft these days. They win or lose in the first few turns. Contrary to popular belief, they are some of the softest armies because of their painfully low model-count.

Take away the new units and what you have is a worse SCE army than we had before. It may not be as bad as I made it sound, but it is far from what I expected.

Thought im the only one who thinks like this. Agree you to 100%. New units are like useless. Raptors are like judis, maybe a bit more dmg but lower wounds. Hunters like Libs and palladors are bad dracoths. Only tournament viable battalion is hammerstrike force... only good battalions like warrior brotherhood+azyros and skyborne slayers are destroyed/deleted.  Most of the new battalions are not playable at 2000 points. I think only viable sc tournament army will be hammerstrike with 10 retris and 10 protectors.

[Erdemo86]

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Lord Celestant (100)
Knight Venator (120)
Lord Relictor (80) (Lightning Chariot)

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- Stormcast Eternals Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- Stormcast Eternals Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- Stormcast Eternals Battleline

Units
10 x Paladin Protectors (400)
10 x Paladin Retributors (440)
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (80)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)

Battalions
Hammerstrike Force (120)

Total: 2000/2000
 

I think this will be the new Stormcast tournament Meta. Drop the prosecutors with scions of storm and go all in with lightning Chariot and Celestant. Battleline with Raptors shoot.

You could also change one unit judis with libs and a gryph hound for more defensive plays.

[Heksagon]

8 hours ago, Immersturm said:

I thought Skyborne Slayers is a thing of the past?

Anyway, i did a few games against Tzeentch today and I was sorely disappointed in not only the new units but the book as a whole. Hurricanes performed poorly as they struggled to get past 4+ saves or the 2 wounds Tzangors. While the Longstrikes were far superior, but they suffered from the inherent problem of the Raptors, they are fragile as sin. 2 sets of 3 Skyfires were way faster and crippled my Longstrikes in the second game (used Hurricanes in the first) before they could get anything done.

The Aquilor was amazing. His Command Trait is very good, but you need a good unit to pair it with. As of right now I am only considering the Raptors. The Palladors have solid mobility, but they ranged output with the Javelin is nothing to write home about. They died too quickly with their 4+ saves without modifiers. I would've preferred Dracoths almost every time.

The stars of the game was the Hammerstrike. They are the only way to deploy close to the enemy without restrictions. Without them the games would've been over very quickly, but even they could'nt make up for the defficiencies of the rest.

Overall, I am a bit peeved. Not only were Tzeentch and Beastclaws a massive power creep, but now SCE have been neutered, because they lost their biggest advantage, the alpha strike. This new 9" limitation kills it, because SCE have no access to bubble wraps and blobs and most of their units are too soft these days. They win or lose in the first few turns. Contrary to popular belief, they are some of the softest armies because of their painfully low model-count.

Take away the new units and what you have is a worse SCE army than we had before. It may not be as bad as I made it sound, but it is far from what I expected.

Wow, that's very interesting. I can't wait for more raports like this. 

I have high hopes for The Aquilor, because his Command Ability can is very tricky and you can use in many ways.

I will use him for my Aether Strike and Justicar Conclave- he can teleport himself, Raptors (Longstrike), but also Aetherwings - aaand that's is the most interesting thing.

Extra stuff from this battalions is based on Aetherwings, the fact you can just teleport them is quite useful.

[Turragor]

I wouldnt put much stock in ppl playing with hammerstrike with a few token new units and not having a great time. Ask anyone who tried alphastrike with small units instead of 'all in' how they did.

You've gotta go all in.

So I predict the new meta could move first towards a 75/25 split of those who can't let alphastrike go and move to hammerstrike, and those who embrace this new death of a thousand cuts/ will o the wisp style stormcast.

The former will play the kind of max hammerstrike list we're seeing and won't do quite as well as warrior brotherhood lists.

The latter, well I don't know. How valuable could a "can't pin down, not sure where or when they are going to deploy" list do with the objective based scenarios we have?

I think very well and so after the new book matures like a fine cheese and more people splurge on vanguard units we'll start to see 50/50 hammerstrike and vanguard lists.

Just a guess from a total amateur mind haha!

 

[Immersturm]

MSU does not work, I agree. This was part of what ruined my first game. The second game had me taking far less units and more focus on alpha strike. This game I almost won. The Hammerstrike crippled the Skyfires (though not before they killed 3/6 Longstrikes). I took a risk and has the Prosecutors deep strike with the SCE trait and then toss the Paladins right after them. It worked.

The repositioning of the Aquilor and a Pallador unit took the other flank while Judis did their thing. All of his heroes apart from the LOC, most of horrors and all of his Skyfire were gone... and I still lost. After that initial push I got outmaneuvered and taken apart by his Enlightened blob and LoC while the other Horrors came back because of his trait and no unit had enough output to finish it, apart from the Paladins, but they were simply too slow to get anything done after killing the Skyfires.

This is why I think that overcommitting on the Paladins is a bad idea. I would take 10 + 5 at most, usually 5 + 5. They are the scalpel. If they were like the Vanguard Wing, I would conver 20, but after the initial drop they are slow. They are a target-seeking missile. They drop and destroy. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

As for the Battalions, there are some pretty solid ones, to be fair. Among my list of 'have to try someday' are Lords of the Storm, Hammerstrike, Vanguard Wing, Angelos and Justicar and maaaaaybe the Aetherwing, though I am not sure about the last one, seeing as that list is super fragile.

I think it boils down to less about the quality of any individual unit but list building. SCE can not play MSU anymore. They need to commit. If you take a flanking list, go all the way, if you are taking an aggressive melee push, go all the way. If you are taking a gunline, you will be disappointed though.

Some traits can also do good work. +1 saves or D3 units scout 5" before the game can make certain setups work. But I still think that palying on attrition is a bad idea. SCE need to hit hard to win. Fast and hard, like a Sledgehammer glued to a speeding freight train.

[Turragor]

The idea of a flanking list is growing on me. Aquilor, 2xRelictor 3x10 Hunters and 6 each palladors and longstrike is 2000 on the nose I think.

No battalion bonuses which I'd probably look into.

Basically, there's some flexibility from pure Vanguard.

Saying it is one thing though, I just gotta get painting

Oh and robbing a bank.

[Double Misfire]

16 minutes ago, Turragor said:

The idea of a flanking list is growing on me. Aquilor, 2xRelictor 3x10 Hunters and 6 each palladors and longstrike is 2000 on the nose I think.

No battalion bonuses which I'd probably look into.

Basically, there's some flexibility from pure Vanguard.

Saying it is one thing though, I just gotta get painting

Oh and robbing a bank.

Try to squeeze an extra Aquilor in there for Consummate Commander and all the redeployment shenanigans?  

[Immersturm]

1 hour ago, Turragor said:

The idea of a flanking list is growing on me. Aquilor, 2xRelictor 3x10 Hunters and 6 each palladors and longstrike is 2000 on the nose I think.

No battalion bonuses which I'd probably look into.

Basically, there's some flexibility from pure Vanguard.

Saying it is one thing though, I just gotta get painting

Oh and robbing a bank.

There is a Battalion that includes 3 Hunters and at least one Pallador unit. It makes your army even faster, though you would need to pay the Battalion cost. You may want to drop one Hunter unit down to 5 or something. No need for 2 Aquilors though. A bit overkill if you ask me. Palladors can do their 6D6 (9D6 in the battalion) redeployment if they really must. But boys before toys. SCE suffer from a low modelcount.

[Turragor]

57 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

But boys before toys

This is the new motto of the stormcast, delivered in their thunderous manly voices. In my eyes my stormcast are always exceedingly camp.
 

Quote

 

Lord Perineum Doublefist laid his long hammer shaft on the ground, he cleared his throat mightily.

"I hear you Darius, it is nice to take the finest wargear into battle in our finest formations... However," Lord Perineum gripped his shaft and raised his mighty weapon up to the skies, "Boys before toys Darius."

 

This text is not affiliated in any way with the creative fictional works of Games Workshoptm

[BURF1]

On 3/3/2017 at 7:26 PM, Erdemo86 said:

Thought im the only one who thinks like this. Agree you to 100%. New units are like useless. Raptors are like judis, maybe a bit more dmg but lower wounds. Hunters like Libs and palladors are bad dracoths. Only tournament viable battalion is hammerstrike force... only good battalions like warrior brotherhood+azyros and skyborne slayers are destroyed/deleted.  Most of the new battalions are not playable at 2000 points. I think only viable sc tournament army will be hammerstrike with 10 retris and 10 protectors.

I think the exact opposite, I think hammerstrike will be what people start with but I think the real strong lists will be built around the raptors and the Lord Aquilor. The Aetherstrike force has the potential to wipe entire armies of the board from 30" out in a single turn (an unlucky or unwise opponent could be looking at giving a big squad of Longstrikes 5 rounds of shooting in a single turn). I think the problem is that people are stuck on playing them as a punchy drop down from the sky and BLAM army when now they work exceedingly well as a 'haha can't catch me!' shoot you for 3 turns with some of the strongest ranged units in the game and then put Dracoths directly into your squishy bits army.

[BURF1]

17 hours ago, Immersturm said:

MSU does not work, I agree. This was part of what ruined my first game. The second game had me taking far less units and more focus on alpha strike. This game I almost won. The Hammerstrike crippled the Skyfires (though not before they killed 3/6 Longstrikes). I took a risk and has the Prosecutors deep strike with the SCE trait and then toss the Paladins right after them. It worked.

The repositioning of the Aquilor and a Pallador unit took the other flank while Judis did their thing. All of his heroes apart from the LOC, most of horrors and all of his Skyfire were gone... and I still lost. After that initial push I got outmaneuvered and taken apart by his Enlightened blob and LoC while the other Horrors came back because of his trait and no unit had enough output to finish it, apart from the Paladins, but they were simply too slow to get anything done after killing the Skyfires.

This is why I think that overcommitting on the Paladins is a bad idea. I would take 10 + 5 at most, usually 5 + 5. They are the scalpel. If they were like the Vanguard Wing, I would conver 20, but after the initial drop they are slow. They are a target-seeking missile. They drop and destroy. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

As for the Battalions, there are some pretty solid ones, to be fair. Among my list of 'have to try someday' are Lords of the Storm, Hammerstrike, Vanguard Wing, Angelos and Justicar and maaaaaybe the Aetherwing, though I am not sure about the last one, seeing as that list is super fragile.

I think it boils down to less about the quality of any individual unit but list building. SCE can not play MSU anymore. They need to commit. If you take a flanking list, go all the way, if you are taking an aggressive melee push, go all the way. If you are taking a gunline, you will be disappointed though.

Some traits can also do good work. +1 saves or D3 units scout 5" before the game can make certain setups work. But I still think that palying on attrition is a bad idea. SCE need to hit hard to win. Fast and hard, like a Sledgehammer glued to a speeding freight train.

Not to spend too much time arguing semantic but all MSU means is that you take multiple small units, which is what you're suggesting with the 5+5 paladins and all the formations you suggested (except aetherwing which is a deathstar list) and I would argue that the strength of the new stormcast isn't it's full on alphastrike anymore but that it can have an extremely strong alpha strike pick out whatever your opponents army has that can either chase you down or kill you at range and then dance the rest of the army around him while you whittle them down until eventually you commit to combat and break their back. Basically your opponent has to spread out or die to your shooting but when they do they die to your melee dropping into their backlines.

[Immersturm]

Unless they shoot back. Thundertusks and Tzangor Skyfires will have no problem reaching and killing your ranged units. What you are saying is not alpha strike. Alpha strike means sealing the outcome by turn you arrive (usually 1-2) and the rest being formality. Killing key units and then dancing around is closer to attrition.

As has been mentioned above, I think we will see a split between Alpha Strike and Extremis players and Vanguard players. Personally, I am in the former camp. I find it far easier to build hard hitting alpha strike lists or pseudo death stars with buffed up defensive capabilities. I believe there will be some crossover between the two groups, but I doubt we will see a perfect fusion. SCE cost too much for that.

[Knight-Errant]

So yesterday i played a 2k game against death.Take and Hold. Used Knights Excelsior Exemplar Chamber.

15 liberators followed by protectors no starsoul and Prosecutors

That 1-2 reroll and staunch defender with the warding lantern plus a Relictor is definitely very good.SS or WB is no match imho

Heroes didnt take a single wound lost all the archers and 3 out of 15 libs, plus 5 of 5 libs (2 units).

Enemy got tabled.

 

[Immersturm]

29 minutes ago, Knight-Errant said:

So yesterday i played a 2k game against death.Take and Hold. Used Knights Excelsior Exemplar Chamber.

15 liberators followed by protectors no starsoul and Prosecutors

That 1-2 reroll and staunch defender with the warding lantern plus a Relictor is definitely very good.SS or WB is no match imho

Heroes didnt take a single wound lost all the archers and 3 out of 15 libs, plus 5 of 5 libs (2 units).

Enemy got tabled.

 

I can see it working damn well with Liberators and Dracoths are additional units. couple it either with +1 saves or D3 units scout and you have a force that is tough to shift... unless you face MW spam.

What bothers me is the Devastation Brohood. When they use Scions, they need to stay 9" away and they have no other ways of getting close reliably. The Hammerstrike can, at least, get around that restriction. How did the Brohood do?

[Votters]

4 hours ago, Knight-Errant said:

So yesterday i played a 2k game against death.Take and Hold. Used Knights Excelsior Exemplar Chamber.

15 liberators followed by protectors no starsoul and Prosecutors

That 1-2 reroll and staunch defender with the warding lantern plus a Relictor is definitely very good.SS or WB is no match imho

Heroes didnt take a single wound lost all the archers and 3 out of 15 libs, plus 5 of 5 libs (2 units).

Enemy got tabled.

 

Where you just using 5 of each paladin unit?  

[ledha]

i think the knight excelsior chamber is very good.

Stormcast can be more resilient ant tanky than ever, but massive mortal wound are still our worst nightmare. Beating a tzeentch list will be very hard, except maybe with a powerful and long range army

[Immersturm]

7 minutes ago, ledha said:

i think the knight excelsior chamber is very good.

Stormcast can be more resilient ant tanky than ever, but massive mortal wound are still our worst nightmare. Beating a tzeentch list will be very hard, except maybe with a powerful and long range army

Tzeentch and BCR are among the most powerful lists and thus most likely to be seen in a competitive meta.

[ledha]

i'm honestly more afraid of tzeentch. Beatsclaw hit like a train but are quite fragile, while tzeentch has lot of cheap meatshield and ways of resurrect their most powerful units, while destroying us from afar. And they don't have lot of trouble with taking objectives

[Requizen]

Which is why I think a move to shooting focused army types is prudent. Even though Hammerstrike and Skyborne still give us alpha striking melee powerhouse units, the meta is incorporating a lot of chaff, and you can't always rely on getting behind or catching people out of position. We have relatively powerful shooting, though held back by cost. I think some sort of Liberator spam backed by shooting prowess may be something to pursue - Judicators, Raptors, Venators, and even Prosecutors can all snipe important units or characters with relative reliability, while Liberators act as speedbumps and walls.

If the meta shifts away from high ranged damage (or things get nerfed in TGH2), Cavalry armies may be prominent as well, but atm they are pretty shaky.

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[Immersturm]

The issue I have with SCE shooting is that those units are very soft. For around the same price DoT get Skyfires, which are way faste, have a similar output, better melee and more survivability. Outside of a 3+ roll with Scions, which is in no way reliable, Skyfires will usually get the jump on Raptors. Even if Raptors get the jump, similar output but more live means that Skyfires will win this exchange either way.

[Malakithe]

Hey @Immersturm...what were the DoT lists you have faced so far? If you remember