Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Requizen]

So there's no way to get the Lightning Strike bonus in 2000 points as far as I can tell. Is anyone even thinking of making their army a Stormhost in that case? You have to take a heavy Battalion buy-in, with Battalions that are pretty meh in the first place, for mostly situational abilities. The only big bonus I can see from it is the ability to put everything in one drop, but other than that it seems like too much of a restriction for me.

 

Not saying they're bad, it's great from a fluffy perspective for Open and Narrative, but Matched is a different story.

 

If they don't touch Skyborne (low chance of that happening) I'll probably stick with it.

 

Scions of the Storm is cool and all, but relying on rolls to bring things in sounds like something that needs to only lose you the game once before you abandon it. I can see myself running lots of Priests with Lightning Chariot and Vexillors for the mobility, even if it isn't as insane as Warrior Brotherhood was.

 

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Edit: I think armies will move toward more structured builds - heavy infantry in front of good shooting units while cavalry flanks. Less all in on Alpha Strikes.

 

 

 

[TalesOfSigmar]

It sounds like a fair few of the Batallions have been tweaked and changed allowing you to change the dice roll of Scions of the Storm up and down depending when you want units to arrive.

Need to go through every Batallion and see what changes have been made before trying to work out what's best to use.

I know a few people have been looking at the leaks and saying Hammerstrike Force would be the go-to formation, but for one unit of 3 x Prosecutors with Javelins, a unit of 10 Retributors and 10 Protectors you're still paying over half your army points for three units. It's a lot of points for one trick.

I'm sure down the line they'll be some really interesting lists with all the different artefacts and powers available to us now.

[chord]

4 hours ago, Turragor said:

Is it just me that thinks he's pretty decently priced?

He is a dangerous model even without the attack boost from delayed start.

A few of the new treats in the tome will affect him too (he's a stormcast unit) - think prayers and the new buffs.

 

 

In narrative I really like using the Prime.  In matched not so much. There are so many ways to deal Mortal Wounds and with only his 8 wounds, its easy to get him knocked down in your opponent's hero phase to a point where he can be killed in shooting or combat.

I would have liked a point reduction down to 300. 

[Nico]

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That's 1880 points counting the cost of the battalion and it doesn't make anything battleline. I understand it's still useful for narrative, open, or 2500+ points but come on man, tournament standard is 2000 points, you couldn't do something to make it usable at that level? Is it really that much more fluffy for them to not be battleline? Is 3 units of dracoths that much more in line with the narrative than 2? If both groups of cav was only minimum 2 you could still fit in battleline. Or make it 2-4 so that open play people can have a fluffy way to make a stormcast cav army without locking it out of tournaments.

This is not a sensible criticism. There are plenty of very large battalions which are primarily intended for narrative play (Archaon's Grand Host and Gordrakk's Megaboss Fest (that's it's actual name) for example. They are often super good for a reason - to make a dramatic narrative. They might work well in a 2,500 point or 3,000 point tournament as well, since everyone will know that the scalable heroes and warscrolls become a lot better (Nagash; Alarielle; Gordrakk - use his command ability on a single drop Beastclaw raiders army and bellow YOLO).

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I know a few people have been looking at the leaks and saying Hammerstrike Force would be the go-to formation, but for one unit of 3 x Prosecutors with Javelins, a unit of 10 Retributors and 10 Protectors you're still paying over half your army points for three units. It's a lot of points for one trick.

A more efficient thing to do might be to use 10/15 Retributors/Protectors for the damage and 5 Decimators for the 6" Battleshock Debuff, they don't even need to get into combat with the real target to do their thing - they can just chill or chew up some chaff. The fact that the Hammerstrike force seems to appear in a lot of the Single Drop Army battalions is probably not a coincidence. My team at Firestorm Fours #OnlyTheFilthful used it alongside a small Skyborne Slayers battalion (partly as an experiment and partly to avoid using the Warrior Brotherhood).

I'm hoping that the Vexillor's teleport has been toned down (e.g. teleport to 5" or even 7" away from the enemy) rather than completely deleted. He did feel a tad overcosted at 200 anyway - 180 felt about right. 

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I'm sure down the line they'll be some really interesting lists with all the different artefacts and powers available to us now.

Yep - will almost certainly happen. It may even take months for really good combos to evolve as it did with Sylvaneth.

[wayniac]

I am already thinking of perhaps a mainly Vanguard force, designed to be able to outflank the enemy and threaten anywhere on the board.  Maybe something like (not sure of traits etc. yet, waiting until I get the book) at 2000 points:

Lord Aquilor (General)
Lord Castellant
Lord Relictor
2x Knight-Venators

10 Liberators
5 Judicators
1 Gryph Hound (with Lord Castellant)

(Forming an anvil to guard my own objectives with the Lord Castellant)

5 Vanguard Hunters
5 Vanguard Hunters
3 Vanguard Palladors

(Able to outflank to seize enemy objectives or go after heroes)

10 Retributors

(Potentially keeping these guys in reserve to strike down where I need them; possibly 5 Retributors and 5 Protectors?)

[Turragor]

2 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I am already thinking of perhaps a mainly Vanguard force, designed to be able to outflank the enemy and threaten anywhere on the board.  Maybe something like (not sure of traits etc. yet, waiting until I get the book) at 2000 points:

Lord Aquilor
Lord Castellant
Lord Relictor
2x Knight-Venators

10 Liberators
5 Judicators
1 Gryph Hound (with Lord Castellant)

(Forming an anvil to guard my own objectives with the Lord Castellant)

5 Vanguard Hunters
5 Vanguard Hunters
3 Vanguard Palladors

(Able to outflank to seize enemy objectives or go after heroes)

10 Retributors

(Potentially keeping these guys in reserve to strike down where I need them; possibly 5 Retributors and 5 Protectors?)

I am definitely taking more fun lists to my next tournaments.

Previously non- WB or SS lists would be hard pressed to do well mostly because of lack of lightning strike deployment. The extra bells and whistles with those two battalions really didn't matter.

Especially if the non-lightning striking list met another stormcast list that was lightning striking.

But I feel that giving scions of the storm as the faction trait means that no more will the results be decided at the list level. Not entirely.

You can still be too experimental or make just an okay list.

That's okay though, that should always be the case.

Maybe the tl:dr will be - where variants of 2 kinds of lists were great in tournaments before, we will now have variants of (guesswork here) 6 kinds of lists.

[kozokus]

56 minutes ago, Nico said:

There are plenty of very large battalions which are primarily intended for narrative play

NO WAY!!! There is still no matched play points for the Brotherhood of the Greats Bolts!

Shame !

[Rhellion]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

yep - will almost certainly happen. It may even take months for really good combos to evolve as it did with Sylvaneth.

Honestly the majority of them aren't worth a second glance. There are a couple good ones.

[Immersturm]

Boys, it's that time again. Let's talk efficiency and optimization. Vanguard Huntards. When compared directly to the Crossbow Judicators, they are superior (bigger threat range and same amount of shots if the Judis moved and when they Judis do not move, the Hunters can charge to get more damage out in one turn).
 

However, would Hunters usurp our trusty core of bow Judicators and Liberators? Or are they a niche unit that will not see much use because it lacks specialisation?

[wayniac]

1 minute ago, Immersturm said:

Boys, it's that time again. Let's talk efficiency and optimization. Vanguard Huntards. When compared directly to the Crossbow Judicators, they are superior (bigger threat range and same amount of shots if the Judis moved and when they Judis do not move, the Hunters can charge to get more damage out in one turn).
 

However, would Hunters usurp our trusty core of bow Judicators and Liberators? Or are they a niche unit that will not see much use because it lacks specialisation?

I think they have their uses (see my idea above) but don't replace Liberators/Judicators.  They seem great for harassing flanks, which is where I think they will excel; being able to pop in (or redeploy via Lord Aquilor) to shoot out enemy characters or contest objectives.

[Lissë-Prime]

I tried to build up a list of pure vanguard abilities based on the Warscroll Battalions.
But with more than 3,000 points combined I think I will not see them in action more then few times.

My list would be like this:

Allegiance Ability: 

• Battle Trait: Scions of the Storm << But not use as it is quite unreliable.
• Command Trait: Cunning Strategist << This is a trait tailored for Vanguard.

Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber (140 Points) << If you can get this chamber it will be disaster and headache for the enemy. Unfortunately you need ... points to do so.

• 1 × Lord-Aquilor (200 Points) - General
  • Obsidian Blade -> Give to Starbound Blade
• 3 × Knight-Venators (3×120 = 360 Points) << Only need these guys to complete the Chamber. Otherwise I'll chose the Raptor units instead.

Vanguard Angelos Conclave (100 Points) << Let's ride the wind. Imagine a possibility to move up to 54" in your prefer direction.

• 2 × 3 × Vanguard-Palladors (2×220 = 440 Points) - Shock Handaxe << This will be used to outflank and harass enemy. The Handaxes themselves cannot deal so much damage but at least I can almost guarantee a mortal wound per leader model.
• 1 × 3 × Vanguard-Palladors (220 Points) - Starstrike Jevelin << This can be used to harass the enemy line but may deal not much damage, if at all. It's like you have a stronger unit of Prosecutors with Celestial Hammer. I may consider to switch to Handaxe instead. Because all other benefits you will get is to get them in close combat.
• 4 × 5 × Vanguard-Hunters (4×140 = 560 Points) - Battleline - Shock Handaxe or Storm Sabre << These guy are the main harassers. I would give enemy a turn or two before appear in pursuit. In the meantime I would rain a lot of arrows at them.

Vanguard Justicar Conclave (60 Points)

• 2 × 3 × Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (2×180 = 360 Points) << These guys are pure glass cannon, period.  I can get 30" of pure deadly 6 shots (55% chance, equal to 3×2 = 6 wounds with -2 Rend -- Not so easily be saved) each turn which can be easily turn any unit it targeted into a lump of meat. And with re-roll hit 1 from the Concert, they would be much more effective than Knight-Venator.
• 1 × 3 × Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (160 Points) << Unlike the Longstrike one, these crossbows are quite short (18") and I need to take a risk to be charged so quick so I consider taking only 1 unit. But only 1 unit can rain 18 shots of 25% change to deal a damage. So it will be about 4.5 wound per turn, which is quite acceptable output. Anyway if you want to charge this unit you may need to think twice.
• 3 × 3 × Aetherwings (3×60 = 180 Points) << Not so much use in themselves but I need 3 units of them to complete the battalion to perform concerts by sending them to pinpoint the enemies because I'm playing Tau in 40K and love using Marker Drones.

Total: 3,440 Points. Not so good to play in any matched play but I would love to see them in action once.

[Nico]

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Honestly the majority of them aren't worth a second glance. There are a couple good ones.

I largely agree - from an initial glance - some of the big battalions didn't jump out as being strong the way that (especially) Gnarlroot and Winterleaf did. One or two looked a lot better than the others. However, I'd give them time.

[Kytlock]

Hello all! I'm looking at becoming an SE player. I so far have a Lord Relictor, Lord Castellant on Dracoth, and an unopened box of Paladins (waiting on the new rules to decide what to build as).

I really wanted to build a 1k list, but have seen the upcoming rule changes and decided to hold off. However, I really want some opinions on the Hammerstrike battalion, as I love the Prosecutor models and it seems pretty sweet to drop the Ret's in with them. I also like the Celestant Prime a lot. These being points hungry, is it still a good start or not efficient enough?


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[wayniac]

26 minutes ago, Nico said:

I largely agree - from an initial glance - some of the big battalions didn't jump out as being strong the way that (especially) Gnarlroot and Winterleaf did. One or two looked a lot better than the others. However, I'd give them time.

IMHO this is a good thing.  They aren't super strong, so there isn't that feeling of "But I'm hurting my chances of winning by not taking them" sort of thing.

[Lissë-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Kytlock said:

Hello all! I'm looking at becoming an SE player. I so far have a Lord Relictor, Lord Castellant on Dracoth, and an unopened box of Paladins (waiting on the new rules to decide what to build as).

I really wanted to build a 1k list, but have seen the upcoming rule changes and decided to hold off. However, I really want some opinions on the Hammerstrike battalion, as I love the Prosecutor models and it seems pretty sweet to drop the Ret's in with them. I also like the Celestant Prime a lot. These being points hungry, is it still a good start or not efficient enough?


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In 1K game I would not include Celestant-Prime for the reason that it is point hungry.  

For Hammerstrike Force, I once use this in battle. If you place your Prosecutors wisely and select right Paladin (e.g. Decimators vs large unit of small models) it will be deadly. But you will risk your Prosecutors being taken down prematurely. Overall it is a decent battalion in 1K list.

If you like Hammerstrike Force, you may also add 80 points and get Celestial Vindicator Warrior Chamber as well.

If you hold off to see new battalion I think you will be disappointed because as far as rumours go there is no new battalion for small list. Just large (and larger and very very large) list can fill the new battalions. 

[Immersturm]

I really like the Aethewing Strikeforce. Loads of dakka and pretty cheap to boot. Throw in a unit of shooty Palladors and an Aquilor to outflank with the Raptors and you have a pretty shooty and mobile army. Not sure it can take it up with a good old fashioned Dracothian Guard push though, especially since the Vexillor is far cheaper now.

[Kytlock]

If you like Hammerstrike Force, you may also add 80 points and get Celestial Vindicator Warrior Chamber as well.

So after seeing the Stormhost rules on another site, it seems the the Celestial Vindicators get there own rules that favor the Hammerstrike. And it's even the paint scheme I was thinking about!


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[Immersturm]

I am not sure I like any of the Storm Hosts, because none are able to make good use of the Vanguard elements. The Aquilor is my new favourite Hero and General and I think I usually usually run the second general trait, so that I can toss in the Lord Celestant on foot to buff the +1 to hit. But I think the Aquilor will replace the Dracoth Celestant in most of my lists now, which is pretty bad news for the Storm Hosts, because most of them want those bloody Lords of the Storm.

[Turragor]

8 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

I am not sure I like any of the Storm Hosts, because none are able to make good use of the Vanguard elements. The Aquilor is my new favourite Hero and General and I think I usually usually run the second general trait, so that I can toss in the Lord Celestant on foot to buff the +1 to hit. But I think the Aquilor will replace the Dracoth Celestant in most of my lists now, which is pretty bad news for the Storm Hosts, because most of them want those bloody Lords of the Storm.

You sure the Lord Aquilor isn't in lords of the storm now?

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, Kytlock said:

Hello all! I'm looking at becoming an SE player. I so far have a Lord Relictor, Lord Castellant on Dracoth, and an unopened box of Paladins (waiting on the new rules to decide what to build as).

I really wanted to build a 1k list, but have seen the upcoming rule changes and decided to hold off. However, I really want some opinions on the Hammerstrike battalion, as I love the Prosecutor models and it seems pretty sweet to drop the Ret's in with them. I also like the Celestant Prime a lot. These being points hungry, is it still a good start or not efficient enough?

If you play the Prime in a 1000 point list, it will be very hard to survive early on at the 1000-640 point deficit. If you do make it to, say, turn 3, before bringing him in from the Celestial Realm, the Prime will totally melt anything your opponent brought to the battle. It's really a high risk-high reward play. 

[Nico]

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it will be very hard to survive early on at the 1000-640 point deficit.

Could you not just stay off the table until then with the Battle Trait.

[BURF1]

Personally i think the winners are the lord relictor and the crossbows. Here's a mockup 2000 point 'leaf blower' list, which i think will be the strength of the new stormcasts, this is keeping with stormcast allegience so no hurricanum in this version.

1xKnight Azyros 

3x Lord Relictor 2 with buff weapons 1 with lightning chariot, 1 is general with +1 save within 6 inches and a defensive relic.

2x5 judicators

1x5 liberators

1×12 Longstrikes

1x9 longstrikes.

Huge damage and survivabilty between the +1 save, the relictor heal, the relictor -1 to enemies hit and the 2 weapon buffs on the longstrikes. Mobility through lightning chariot for you star unit and reoll ones to hit from the azyros. A good first turn of rolling could cut an opponent army in half from 30 inches away.

[Nico]

What is probably not an original thought: why would they bother to nerf the Azyros plus Lightning Strike combo unless they were planning to retain the Warrior Brotherhood as an option? On the basis that it's just a reliable way to bring on the dudes 9" away at a timing of your choice, it's still a good option (it would be overcosted if not for the fact that the whole army has received a good allegiance pack). Skyborne Slayers would also become a decent option again since it would be an inflexible (drop all at once) way to drop the army at 5" - so a reliable charge in exchange for the loss of flexibility. Hopefully, these options (and the Wardens of the Realmgate) are retained going forward.

It would be nice if there was a battalion with the Celestant Prime in it to buff him a bit.  

[Turragor]

51 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Personally i think the winners are the lord relictor and the crossbows. Here's a mockup 2000 point 'leaf blower' list, which i think will be the strength of the new stormcasts, this is keeping with stormcast allegience so no hurricanum in this version.

1xKnight Azyros 

3x Lord Relictor 2 with buff weapons 1 with lightning chariot, 1 is general with +1 save within 6 inches and a defensive relic.

2x5 judicators

1x5 liberators

1×12 Longstrikes

1x9 longstrikes.

Huge damage and survivabilty between the +1 save, the relictor heal, the relictor -1 to enemies hit and the 2 weapon buffs on the longstrikes. Mobility through lightning chariot for you star unit and reoll ones to hit from the azyros. A good first turn of rolling could cut an opponent army in half from 30 inches away.

I can see stormcast gunline being a thing for sure. Maybe not the best use of all SC toys but something that won't automatically suffer from not being WB or SS.

[Turragor]

In fact I think a strong ranged unit x 2 along with 2 relictors is a good backup. 

If you roll to drop and fail one or the other then you wouldn't guarantee the salvo. It's decent insurance.

You'd also only need to roll to drop the next big ranged unit the next time you want a salvo as the relictor is already there.

• So deploy in the clouds except for some objective cappers
• Let the opponent go first
• See what he is about, what he does with his units knowing you've got this 'cloud salvo'. Ponder his weakpoint
• Roll to bring down 1st relictor at max range to buff your 1st salvo provider
• If it fails roll for the 2nd (if that fails, oops! Maybe reconsider rolling for the ranged unit)
• Roll to bring down 1st big ranged unit
• If it fails roll for the 2nd (if that fails, oops! Just a rogue relictor on the board, worst case both - gonna be sniped)
• I wouldn't roll for the 2nd salvo unit if all goes well, I'd leave the combo in the bag for another ripe moment
• See if you get the double

I might try pondering something like that backed up with some other flexible tools.

Of course, that logic applies to any single unit boosted with buffs. It just feels like ranged doesn't need to make a charge which is nice.