Thoughts about Tzeentch under General's Handbook

[FunkyPunk]

So I was wondering what other people's thoughts are about the tzeentch faction (both daemons and mortals) under GH. My experience is predominantly from the daemon side. I think the book has hurt it somewhat on three fronts:

-max one of each spell per turn

-the limitations on summoning 

-battle line troops

Before, my tzeentch lists would focus on a lot of casters, with some summoned flamers and other goodies. So, now I think it needs a bit of a different direction. I think spell casting can still be somewhat viable if your casters have good signature spells (such as gateway and the like), so variety in spellcasters is key. Does this seem reasonable?

Pink horrors are relatively expensive and arent as useful now they can't all spam shields or bolts. Has anyone else thought about what battle line units they'd use?

Summoning I think can still be useful as either a tool to keep your opponent on their toes, or to bring flexibility to your list, but it still seems a bit too risky for the benefits,

Any discussion, thoughts, and comments welcome!

 

 

[Shane]

Casting thoughts directly to the page in a ramble...

Rule of 1 on spells hits them hard. I'd argue the hardest.

Tzeentch certainly need a Battletome with allegiance abilities. Ability to duplicate spells or just a table of new spells to pick from would be ideal. 

I've been thinking more about the Blue Scribes. They can learn a spell and then cast it on a 2+. But you can't duplicate spells. So perhaps they dart about the board gathering spells, and cast them if they fail/the original unit dies. More of a unit that grows in power but needs more thought. I'd use them to grab the Herald's D6 wounds ability for when it inevitably dies.

Anyone that can cast more than one spell have been nerfed too. After all the Horrors you need to use (up to four units of them), the two core spells are already split between them.

As mentioned elsewhere, I expect they'll split Acolytes and Daemons in the books. Which would be shame. Keeping the two as one would provide some options. 

[daedalus81]

That is why I like the curseling so much -- if he's lucky enough to unbind a spell then he can recast it right then and glean magic further fills out my repertoire.  I already used it once to steal regrowth...very handy.  If only he had some +1/+2 to unbind.

[Nubgan]

I think we can safely say that with the Tzentch release probably sometime this year that we might see a decent battletome to solve some of there casting issues as well as some more battleline units such as the ones in the Silver Tower box. Its a bit of a poor god to back in its current state I think because of its nerfed casting dependance.

[Nico]

Also the Fatesworn Warband, which is decent for Tzeentch Slaves to Darkness/Mortals was also nerfed by the rule of one - no extra arcane bolts. Although I've asked whether this and Kroak would be exceptions.

[Lucio]

I'm hoping Kairic Acolytes will become Battleline for a Tzeentch force, they fill out a role between Maurauders and Pink Horrors nicely.

[WoollyMammoth]

I agree they need allegiance stuff. I'm sure they will get a full Tzeentch spell lore soon, along with rules for Silver Tower stuff and lots of new models over the next "year of tzeentch".

The pink horror thing is appropriate and annoying at the same time. There is finally proper restrictions to limit taking 4 units of these guys for free wizards. Unfortunately at the same time you HAVE to take several units of these guys since they are your only BL choice. Screamers and Flamers should be BL units IMO, at least if you pick only Tzeentch Daemons. Chariots are a bit weird but at least you can throw one in to fill up BL.

All they need to be good is a spell lore but they are a bit of thin faction so I hope they see new models this year. 

I don't think there will be an Arcanite/Daemon allegiance - they are clearly seperated as different factions. I think they will get separate spell lores with access to summon certain things. Or you can play them together as a CHAOS allegiance or open play.
 

[Shane]

Yeah, needing a Herald on a Chariot as your general to get a Burning one as battleline and only if Tzeentch is your alligence - stacking those taxes. 

Looking forward to the inevitable book...which might be this Dominions of Chaos. 

[Arkiham]

6 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

That is why I like the curseling so much -- if he's lucky enough to unbind a spell then he can recast it right then and glean magic further fills out my repertoire.  I already used it once to steal regrowth...very handy.  If only he had some +1/+2 to unbind.

use the balewind vortex, doesnt do anything for dispelling but gives you a bonus and allows close combat immunity and gives +1 save

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

use the balewind vortex, doesnt do anything for dispelling but gives you a bonus and allows close combat immunity and gives +1 save

I don't actually know what unit that spell is on.

Although not strictly tzeentch I've been toying with the Warpseer and Changeling in a ploy to exert some tzeentchy board control.

[BrAiKo]

The precedent has been set with Bloodbound (i.e. not including daemons).  There will likely not be a combined Tzeentch battletome.   My OCD is annoyed by the fact that this is standard for all of the gods excepts Slaanesh, who's forces are grouped together under 'Hosts of Slaanesh.'

[daedalus81]

Well, all the armies so far are really small with a few exceptions - Seraphon being one where they have tons of choices.  This will probably be the goal for GW, but they need to organize everything first.  Then we'll either see battalions that combine two or more armies or merged books of a sort.

I want to be pure arcanites, but I know if I do my army will be fairly limited in options and I may be strongly tempted to step outside of it - hopefully the rumored allegiance book brings back the other spell lores.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, daedalus81 said:

I don't actually know what unit that spell is on.

Although not strictly tzeentch I've been toying with the Warpseer and Changeling in a ploy to exert some tzeentchy board control.

It's on the scenery peice. Every wizard knows it. No one uses it, it's a spell every wizard knows

[Bass294]

2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

It's on the scenery peice. Every wizard knows it. No one uses it, it's a spell every wizard knows

No one generally uses it since it's been OOP for years and generally you won't be able to summon it since matched play doesn't let you bring along scenery.

[AverageBoss]

Really looking forward to what they do with the Tzeentch marauders, gors, and minotaur from Silver Tower. The pink horrors are pretty easy to figure out. Blue and Brimstone horrors less so.

[Arkiham]

5 hours ago, Bass294 said:

No one generally uses it since it's been OOP for years and generally you won't be able to summon it since matched play doesn't let you bring along scenery.

I've not seen this mentioned anywhere on the leaks I have, do you have an image showing this? 

[FunkyPunk]

Cheers for everyone's input on this! Do agree that the rule of one has hurt the faction a lot - it seems like a bit of a clumsy way to stop heavy magic, but never mind.

Tomorrow I'm going to try (this is for a fun game so that's why there's some slightly janky choices, but still hope to gain some insight into how the force works):

Lord of Change - 260
Gaunt summoner of Tzeentch - 120

Pink horrors x10 - 140
Pink horrors x10 - 140 (these 2 are mainly useless but they're the only battleline I've got at the mo..)
Chaos warriors x10 - 180
Chaos knights x5 - 200
Flamers of tzeentch x6 - 400 (potentially summoned for more versatility)

Soul grinder of tzeentch - 280
Soul grinder of tzeentch - 280

=2000

The idea is  a small mortal warband led by the gaunt summoner, who has gotten the help of a powerful Lord of Change to show the Stormcast the error of their ways! The gaunt summoner's spell + the Lord of Change's infernal gateway gives a good amount of mortal wound juiceyness at small range, and along with the flamers are my firebase. Everything else is there to hold the stormcast up.

Still undecided on traits / artefacts - will have to look into that one a little more.

[Shane]

I'd put a unit of three flamers behind each Grinder as it stomps up the board. Use the Grinders as distractions/tarpits whilst the flamers, well, flame away.

[Rupert Read]

15 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Really looking forward to what they do with the Tzeentch marauders, gors, and minotaur from Silver Tower. The pink horrors are pretty easy to figure out. Blue and Brimstone horrors less so.

There's warscrolls for all the silver tower stuff in a couple of White Dwarfs from when the boxed game was released. The Pink Horrors are the same except they spit into two Blue Horrors when they die and the Blue Horrors turn into a base of Brimstone Horrors each when they die. From what I remember the Blue Horrors and the Brimstone Horrors don't have any magic. 

If you field three units of 10 Pink Horrors for your core at 2000pts they then split into 60 Blue Horrors and then 60 Brimstones. That ability kind of makes up for the drop in the Pink Horrors magical ability imo. You could easily use the Pink Horror models painted blue for the Blue Horrors but not sure where you would get 60 Brimstones from. Would love to see this on the table though if you can find something else to represent the Brimstones. Would be cool to see a new Tzeentch book or just a new spell law and command abilities etc via an app download to.

 

[Shane]

The Pink Horror points are not for the ST warscroll rules. 

 

Unless GW have said otherwise. 

[Changer]

ST Pink Horrors don't have a warscroll - you just use the main warscroll.  

I think this means that you can split any Pink Horrors from units down into Blue Horrors and in turn Brimstone Horrors if you have the models for them.

[Arkiham]

11 hours ago, Shane said:

The Pink Horror points are not for the ST warscroll rules. 

 

Unless GW have said otherwise. 

The blue horrors just do that. It's nothing to do with the pink horrors now 

[Shane]

Okay, I get it. So once points costed you could pay for Blue Horrors, and have them "deepstrike/summon" as the Pink Horrors die. 

Interesting. Will wait to see what 20 of them are priced at. Would make a neat tactic for holding an objective. 

[Changer]

That's an interesting concept.  I had assumed that you would pay for Pink Horrors and when they died you'd get Blue Horrors for free.  Then in turn you'd get Brimstone Horrors for free when the Blue Horrors died.

I suppose we'll find out on Saturday, or whenever we get points etc... for Tzeentch.

[Rupert Read]

Haven't GW said somewhere that if a unit has more than one warscroll the most recently published version supersedes any previous versions although you can you use older versions if your opponent/TO agrees? The Terrorgheist warscroll is the one that springs to mind ref this.