Manfred - too easy to kill ?

[Keith]

As much as I like Mannfred  , only 11 wounds and 4+ save ( Ok 12 wounds as he ignores the first one each turn)

I think most of the nasty armies I've seen will be able to drop in and charge/shoot him off the table pretty quick , even if he does kick ****** with spells and combat.

The Vampire lord on Zombie Dragon or some cheaper Vamp lords ?

Is there something I'm missing with Mannfred ?

[deynon]

You are missing that it can heal itself with spell, killing enemies in CaC.  Cause not only tour enemies are able to damage.

Moreover it depends if you want to play Legion of Night. Cause then you could use ageless cunning to arrive from the border in the way to reduce the distances from your enemy with him. 

And it's up to you deploy anyway him in the way that it's not a target for all the enemy force.  I think it would be better to add anothr "big" target that the oponent can'tignore in the way to divide his focus.

[Malakithe]

All the Mortarchs are too easy to kill

[Hampshire Hammerers]

Ran Manfred in my first game with the new book vs. Maggotkin. Died in one round of combat to 5 Blightkings. Admittedly my opponent got some amazing rolls off, but he went down very easily. 

Having said that, I think thematically two of the Mortarchs would be skulking around behind their own minions, Neferata being a bit more aggressive. Manfred would only engage when the odds were in his favour - this is how il be playing him from now on!

 

[themortalgod]

Most big monster heroes in this game die very easily to focused enemy fire. (I've seen Glottkin or Nagash go down on turn 1 before so hard to expect Mannfred to stand a chance to really focused fire) You need to plan for this and mitigate it. They need proper screens and there are tons of great defensive debuffs in the new lore that can be used to lower enemy threat. The other big one is that you kinda need multiple threats, if someone like Mannfred is your only big threat, then the enemy will put all their resources into him. If you have 2 or 3 big threats then they have a much harder choice to make with their resources.

Also, remember that most enemies ranged threat is a reasonably limited, this isn't 40k where most ranged threats are 24-48" in range. In AoS most threats are going to be in the 18" neighborhood with a few exceptions being longer range.  Plan for this. Mannfred has a 16 + 2D6" threat bubble to charge. 21+2D6 with Amethystine Pinions.  You can easily start a turn out of range of most enemy threats and engage them in combat that turn. 

On top of that, you can also leverage bat swarms to further help reduce incoming ranged damage.

As for melee threats. Again, Mannfred's speed is key. Something like blight kings should never really threaten him since he is so much faster. Don't let your opponent bait you into taking a counter charge. Mannfred is no Archaon, he isn't built to erase units in a single swing. He does good damage but he needs support. All it takes is screening the counter charge with say dire wolves and all of a sudden he is a lot less vulnerable. 

(That said, he is pretty squishy, against a strong gunline like Tzeentch, he is going to really struggle. I think this new book has some competitive options, without a doubt. Mannfred isn't one of them)

 

[Keith]

Ok thanks guys , I will be still be running him , but probably in ambush vs certain armies. Luckily the Legion of Night suits my army

I was listening to a local podcast and one player gleefully  talking about his 9 sky fires. I don't think Mannfred can survive that sort of damage output , not much can , I can only hope GW fix sky fires one day....

 

 

[tcdragon]

I have not yet had a go with the new LoN book but I have been thinking of taking a legion of night army but it sounds as if Mannfred is not the Mortarch for competitive play. Is that right? if you didn't want to take Nagash, what is the best Legion/ Mortarch for competitive play?

Is this too vague?  

[Richelieu]

2 hours ago, tcdragon said:

I have not yet had a go with the new LoN book but I have been thinking of taking a legion of night army but it sounds as if Mannfred is not the Mortarch for competitive play. Is that right? if you didn't want to take Nagash, what is the best Legion/ Mortarch for competitive play?

Is this too vague?  

Many people (myself included) see potential in Arkhan led legion of sacrament.  

[Sception]

On 2/14/2018 at 6:39 PM, deynon said:

You are missing that it can heal itself with spell, killing enemies in CaC.

You can't heal if you're dead.  As @Malakithe says, all the Mortarchs are too easy to kill, making none of them really viable for competitive play, especially as generals.  Oh, you can run big monster heroes.  VLoZD with a defensive artefact or Nagash in a First Cohort are survivable enough, but 11 wounds just does not cut it.  People are still trying to push Arkhan because of the Lords of Sacrament formation, but as much as I also like that formation thematically and Aesthetically, I doubt it will justify the cost of Arkhan himself in tournament play.

Mannfred and Neferata, unlike Arkhan, don't even have good formations to get you to take them as a tax.  While the speed boost for Neferata's formation is nice, it doesn't justify taking her and the palanquin when neither is particularly good so you wouldn't have been better off with double dragon if you wanted a legion of blood monster mash.  As for Mannfred's formation, even with +1 attack, Vargheists, fluffy as they are for Legion of Night, are imo just outclassed by Harbingers and terrorgheists as outflanking threats.  To get them to compete with archai, the formation needed to grant vargheists increased charge range or reliability.  Extra attacks aren't bad or anything, but they're just not what vargheists needed to do what the Legion of Night wants them to do.

[themortalgod]

On 2/14/2018 at 10:22 PM, Keith said:

Ok thanks guys , I will be still be running him , but probably in ambush vs certain armies. Luckily the Legion of Night suits my army

I was listening to a local podcast and one player gleefully  talking about his 9 sky fires. I don't think Mannfred can survive that sort of damage output , not much can , I can only hope GW fix sky fires one day....

 

 

To be fair, 9 skyfires + a shaman is a 780pts investment. It SHOULD be significantly more powerful than something worth about half of that. Which you can really neuter pretty harshly with some well placed debuffs from necromancers. 

[Red]

38 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

To be fair, 9 skyfires + a shaman is a 780pts investment. It SHOULD be significantly more powerful than something worth about half of that. Which you can really neuter pretty harshly with some well placed debuffs from necromancers. 

how are you getting these debuffs from the necromancers off? Don't you have to start the turn within 18" of the target to be able to cast anything, and every other faction's quality ranged damage severely out-threat's that with move + shoot?

Things that cost about, or less than a Mortarch that can neuter them (1/2 wounds or less) in one turn from over 18" (which puts you down to 10" move, so you can't really charge past the chaff line). Decent chances of a Dead Mortarch on a double turn.
2 warp-lightning cannons (360 points for 6 mortal wounds) 

30 glade guard (360 points for 10 -3 rend wounds)

1 thunder tusk beast rider (360 points for 6 mortal wounds)

 Note that this is just looking at the war scrolls without any army synergy: I'm sure you can get more efficiency with buffs that you would normally take for your army.

 

@themortalgod: you may be fine with relegating our unique characters who define entire allegiances to chaff, but some of us want to figure out how to keep them healthy on the table so that they can epically fight things. What constructive strategies can you add to this discussion other than "its OK if they die if you have other, more efficient troops in the wings"?

[Ashtyn]

Unless I'm mistaken you can set Manfred up off the board. The text specifically says '3 units' and heroes count as units. 

By doing this you can increase the chance that he will do his job, since you could bring him out during a chance to get a double turn.

[Malakithe]

6 minutes ago, Ashtyn said:

Unless I'm mistaken you can set Manfred up off the board. The text specifically says '3 units' and heroes count as units. 

By doing this you can increase the chance that he will do his job, since you could bring him out during a chance to get a double turn.

Yes you can set up any Legion of Night units. Thats all it says. The trait just allows your general to ambush so your not taking up one of the 3.

I was thinking Manny + 2 TGheists would make people poop themselves

[Andreas]

11 minutes ago, Ashtyn said:

Unless I'm mistaken you can set Manfred up off the board. The text specifically says '3 units' and heroes count as units. 

By doing this you can increase the chance that he will do his job, since you could bring him out during a chance to get a double turn.

But you wouldn't want to build a tournament winning lists that rely on a turn roll.

I think you can build fun and probably good lists with Mannfred but I don't think you should use him in the way you suggest if you want to win tournaments.

[Andreas]

9 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Yes you can set up any Legion of Night units. Thats all it says. The trait just allows your general to ambush so your not taking up one of the 3.

I was thinking Manny + 2 TGheists would make people poop themselves

Or mayby 8 Harbingers plus a vampire lord for the same price if you go that rute with a full on in your face Night-list. 

[Ashtyn]

6 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Or mayby 8 Harbingers plus a vampire lord for the same price if you go that rute with a full on in your face Night-list. 

I literally just put something like this into war scroll builder. 

8 Harbringers and a Vampire lord on ZD. Only issue was that you can't increase the chance that the vamp lord can charge  

[Malakithe]

2 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Or mayby 8 Harbingers plus a vampire lord for the same price if you go that rute with a full on in your face Night-list. 

Yes ive considered that too. Each set up has its + and - . A ton of Harbingers will certainly be fast and hard to remove. Ton of wounds and ton of dmg but needs to charge. 

The TGheists can drop and, scare the ****** out of someone then shoot 10" into someones battleline potentially taking out non mounted heroes. Then they can charge. Manny would come up behind them.

This is my Night list. It sounds okay but no idea if it would work

Allegiance: Legion of Night
Leaders
Mannfred Mortarch Of Night (420)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread (Deathmages)
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Vampire Lord (140)
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
Behemoths
Terrorgheist (300)
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144

[Red]

30 minutes ago, Ashtyn said:

Unless I'm mistaken you can set Manfred up off the board. The text specifically says '3 units' and heroes count as units. 

By doing this you can increase the chance that he will do his job, since you could bring him out during a chance to get a double turn.

Don't they show up at the end of the movement phase, so you would lose out on Manny's sexy command ability? 

 

it IS a great way to guarantee his safety: can't shoot someone who isn't there!

[Lightbox]

6 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Yes ive considered that too. Each set up has its + and - . A ton of Harbingers will certainly be fast and hard to remove. Ton of wounds and ton of dmg but needs to charge. 

The TGheists can drop and, scare the ****** out of someone then shoot 10" into someones battleline potentially taking out non mounted heroes. Then they can charge. Manny would come up behind them.

This is my Night list. It sounds okay but no idea if it would work

Allegiance: Legion of Night
Leaders
Mannfred Mortarch Of Night (420)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread (Deathmages)
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Vampire Lord (140)
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
Behemoths
Terrorgheist (300)
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144

Seems fun! Though I'd suspect you'd have more use with spear skellies in those numbers but it's each to their own really.

 

Also you haven't used an artifact. Manny can't take it but a diff hero could.

[Sception]

I do want to be clear that AoS is not the best game for competitive balance regardless, and if you can reliably get more casual games against opponents you know won't spam enough shooting to casually sweep a mortarch off the board first turn, then any of the three of them, mannfred even more than the other two, can be perfectly fun and effective to play with.

[Richelieu]

2 hours ago, Sception said:

You can't heal if you're dead.  As @Malakithe says, all the Mortarchs are too easy to kill, making none of them really viable for competitive play, especially as generals.  Oh, you can run big monster heroes.  VLoZD with a defensive artefact or Nagash in a First Cohort are survivable enough, but 11 wounds just does not cut it.  People are still trying to push Arkhan because of the Lords of Sacrament formation, but as much as I also like that formation thematically and Aesthetically, I doubt it will justify the cost of Arkhan himself in tournament play.

Gotta disagree.  Lord of change isn't meaningfully more difficult to kill than Arkhan and is basically the same cost and does, broadly speaking, the same thing.   People love him and he is the centerpiece to many successful tournament lists. 

If you are worried about one of your models dying, make it so that if your opponent brings enough force to bear on that unit to kill it, that you have other units positioned to counterattack.  

[Andreas]

11 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Yes ive considered that too. Each set up has its + and - . A ton of Harbingers will certainly be fast and hard to remove. Ton of wounds and ton of dmg but needs to charge. 

The TGheists can drop and, scare the ****** out of someone then shoot 10" into someones battleline potentially taking out non mounted heroes. Then they can charge. Manny would come up behind them.

This is my Night list. It sounds okay but no idea if it would work

Allegiance: Legion of Night
Leaders
Mannfred Mortarch Of Night (420)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread (Deathmages)
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Vampire Lord (140)
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
Behemoths
Terrorgheist (300)
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144

I have decided to build this list.

1    Mannfred, Fading Vigour    420
1    Vampire Lord, Vile Transference    140
1    Necromancer, Overwhelming Dread    110
1    Necromancer, Morbheg's Claw, Prison of Grief    110
2    Morghast Harbingers    220
2    Morghast Harbingers    220
1    Corpse Cart    80
15    Grave Guard    240
40    Skeleton Warriors    280
10    Dire Wolfs    120
5    Dire Wolfs    60

Somewhat simular but with Harbringers instead of terrorgheist and a small unit of Grave guard (in the grave) instead of a second skeleton unit to get one more hammer. I have two painted 40 units of skeletons so I probably will try both approaches

[Malakithe]

34 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Seems fun! Though I'd suspect you'd have more use with spear skellies in those numbers but it's each to their own really.

 

Also you haven't used an artifact. Manny can't take it but a diff hero could.

Yeah i forgot to switc to spears in scrollbuilder. I also havent looked at the Night items too much yet to know which is which

[Malakithe]

29 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I have decided to build this list.

1    Mannfred, Fading Vigour    420
1    Vampire Lord, Vile Transference    140
1    Necromancer, Overwhelming Dread    110
1    Necromancer, Morbheg's Claw, Prison of Grief    110
2    Morghast Harbingers    220
2    Morghast Harbingers    220
1    Corpse Cart    80
15    Grave Guard    240
40    Skeleton Warriors    280
10    Dire Wolfs    120
5    Dire Wolfs    60

Somewhat simular but with Harbringers instead of terrorgheist and a small unit of Grave guard (in the grave) instead of a second skeleton unit to get one more hammer. I have two painted 40 units of skeletons so I probably will try both approaches

I went with Dread on Manny cuz he is a better platform to cast it with the turn after he ambushes with the TGheists.

Unless you bring a balewind a necro wont get as much meaningful use from Dread. Youll be stuck to casting whatever is nearest mostly 

[Andreas]

12 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I went with Dread on Manny cuz he is a better platform to cast it with the turn after he ambushes with the TGheists.

Unless you bring a balewind a necro wont get as much meaningful use from Dread. Youll be stuck to casting whatever is nearest mostly 

I have to try both set ups but in my mind I think Fading Vigour could be the stronger than Dread just because it also makes the opponent roll only one charge dice. So even if the unit end up 3" from Mannfred (or another unit) they will fail the charge 1/3 of the time. That could be really game winning as rolling snake eyes on an important charge often is.