Legions of Nagash: The Grand Host of Nagash and New Summoning

[Mikeymajq]

Can't...contain...hype...levels! 

Casting stuff twice when it happens will be brutal. Unless there's more to Arkhans alliegance I'm not overly impressed, but I do have a lot of wizards... it's just that the rest is Deathrattle and Nagash got that covered pretty well. 

I like that it looks like the alliegances will have a different effect on ghe graveyard-thingies. Again Arkhans was pretty meh. Mostly as it will probably cost points, otherwise it was cool but nothing to bank on. 

Some of these Death artefacts have been pretty damn strong imo.

Naghizzar and the black gold things seem very strong.

The orb could potentially one shot anything?

[smucreo]

Now that the 9+ is specified to have to be unmodified I'm way less impressed. It will be nice when it happens but all the bonuses to casting we were getting are less important now (although still a nice bonus), so this allegiance doesn't call me that much any more. Let's see what others have to offer, I'm waiting for an allegiance (Mannfred or Soulblight) that allows me to go for all in rush builds, if possible.

[Killax]

@Sception Thats the way I look at it also. In addition I feel there are enough flying monsters within Death that can be the make or break part of combats that otherwise could lead to a stalemate. For example a Terrorgheist with some sort of +1 to hit buff easily deletes most Khorne units on the spot. Depending per Ironjawz build the same can occur there.

Thing is really that this new Legions of Nagash book put Death on the level where they need to be right now. It's true that FEC could have used a similar buff but having said that each Grand Allegiance at some point has worked with 1 very relevant Battletome and a whole lot of other stuff that was simply put not on the same level. In some ways Chaos still functions like that if you look into how Tzeentch came out of the printing machine  

In general I think we will see the 3 Factions in this book focus around:
- Magic support (spoiled)
- Elite melee 
- Super recursion 

5 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Now that the 9+ is specified to have to be unmodified I'm way less impressed. It will be nice when it happens but all the bonuses to casting we were getting are less important now (although still a nice bonus), so this allegiance doesn't call me that much any more. Let's see what others have to offer, I'm waiting for an allegiance (Mannfred or Soulblight) that allows me to go for all in rush builds, if possible.

Sure, dice decide the outcome but consider me sweating when someone resolves a Vanhe's Danse Macabre twice...

[smucreo]

I guess it would be worth it for those rare instances although I'm sure my opponents won't appreciate it hahah Still, smashing against the enemy with VLoZDs, blood knights and Vargheists still looks like a way more fun prospect for me (and a way more frustrating one for my Tzeentch-playing friend, although I'd argue he deserves to feel the pain for once  )

[swarmofseals]

12 hours ago, Yeled said:

How is WDS calculated (and what does it stand for)? Thanks.

Sorry, it should have been WDR. Was typing while tired XD. WDR stands for "Weighted Damage Rating", and it's a statistic that I created to measure the overall offensive efficiency of a unit across all damage types. When I say offensive efficiency, I basically mean the ratio of damage output to points cost.

The "weighted" part is my attempt to create a single stat that can compare different types of rend/mortal wounds with at least some degree of accuracy. Each type of damage that a warscroll does is multiplied by a predetermined number depending on what type of damage it does. Rend 0 is multiplied by 1, Rend 1 by 1.33, Rend 2 by 1.66 and Mortal Wounds by 2.16. These wights are slightly arbitrary but do have some rationale. Basically I estimated the expected frequency of each armor save, with 4+ and 5+ being the most common, 3+ and 6+ being rarer and 2+ and - being the rarest. I then calculated the relative expected values of the different rends/mortals against these saves weighted by the expected frequency of encountering the saves. That's how I ended up with 1/1.33/1.66/2.16. If you expect to be playing against higher saves more frequently, then you might want to adjust the weights for rend/mortals up a bit while if you expect to be playing against worse saves, unrendable saves or ward saves more frequently then you might want to adjust the weights down slightly. 

Overall I don't think the weights are exactly accurate but I do think they are a pretty good estimate of the relative value of rend/mortals.

 

So how do you do the calculation exactly? It's pretty easy. You calculate the expected damage output of each weapon on the warscroll for each model in the unit, taking into account whatever buffs are appropriate. Then you multiply the rend 1 damage by 1.33, the rend 2 damage by 1.66 and mortal wounds by 2.16. Sum everything up and then divide that number by the overall point cost of the unit and you get the WDR.

To give an example using a 5 man Black Knight unit, charging. This is based on the current warscroll:

6 attacks with the barrow lance, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, damage 1: 6 / 2 * 2 / 3 = 2 (rend 0)

10 attacks with steed's hooves and teeth, hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+, damage 1: 10 / 2 / 3 = 1.67 (rend 0)

Total damage: 3.67

Weighted damage: 3.67 (no modifier as it's rend 0)

Point cost: 120

3.67 / 120 = .030583333  -- that's the WDR.

 

Lets do a more complex one just for reference. Here's the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (with sword and no damage taken):

4 attacks with the vampiric sword, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, d3 damage: 4 * 2 / 3 * 2 / 3 * 2 = 3.56 (rend 1)

2 attacks with the dragon's maw, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, d6 damage: 2 / 2 * 2 / 3 * 3.5 = 2.33 (rend 2)

6 attacks with the dragon's claws, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, 2 damage: 6 / 2 * 2 / 3 * 2 = 4 (rend 1)

Total damage: 7.56 rend 1, 2.33 rend 2

Weighted damage: 7.56 * 1.33 + 2.33 * 1.66 = 13.92

Point cost: 440

13.92 / 440 = .0316

 

So here you see two very different warscrolls that have very similar WDR. The VLoZD hits much harder but is also much more expensive. The result is that it's a little bit more efficient than the Black Knights but not by much. 

 

Of course, if you know what kind of armor you are facing you can alter the calculations substantially. Against heavy armor the VLoZD will be significantly more efficient, while against light armor the Black Knights will be significantly more efficient. 

 

Also note that this does not take into account damage concentration, which definitely matters. The VLoZD does a lot more damage compared to the space it takes up on the table, which means it is much better at concentrating damage. Black Knights need to take up way more space in order to do the same amount of expected damage. 

[Rahr]

But the double cast is that only for arkham alliance? Is it not just for every one in the book or did i misunderstand that ?

[grungolah]

Just now, Rahr said:

But the double cast is that only for arkham alliance? Is it not just for every one in the book or did i misunderstand that ?

It sounded like an artifact to me.

[smucreo]

It's for any spell of the Lore of Death if I read it correctly. 

[Rahr]

Sure? For me its just seems like a new death thing like the Two new spell lores? But  might be wrong how did you guys understand it?

[Sception]

16 minutes ago, Killax said:

Sure, dice decide the outcome but consider me sweating when someone resolves a Vanhe's Danse Macabre twice...

Vanhel's is a necromancer warscroll spell, not a spell from either of the new lores, so from the wording in the preview it seems it would not gain the benefits of Locus of Shyish.

As for the Legion of Sacrament overall, a lot will depend on the individual spells, but to me the main thrust of it is looking to be the arkhan formation (arkhan, mortis, multiple necromancers), a dragon lord with the gold bracers (I'm not sure any legion will have an artefact as good for them), with the remaining points filled out with deadwalkers for the cheap battle line and the extra casting buff from a corpse cart, plus a balewind vortex if possible.

The chaff are just there to keep melee off the necromancers and soak some wounds while the list overall aimes to deal as much direct spell damage as possible before finishing off weakened enemies in melee with arkhan and the dragonlord.  There's decent protection for the big stuff (dragon lord shrugs wounds with the artefact, heals with the chalice if that's still a thing, arkhan has a formation that lets him pass at least some wounds to the mortis engine).  Casting wise, everything has significant bonuses to cast depending on what all they're in range of.  first turn +3 to everything, late game the faster mortis and monsters will probably separate from the necros, zombies, and corpse cart, reducing everything to a still respectable +2.  Plus arkhan's personal bonuses.  Plus a balewind on one of the necros, if it fits in the points.

Each wizard knows their own spells plus two from death/vampires, and each can cast two per hero phase, plus extra for Arkhan.  With three necros you'll have access to every necro spell, plus 4 vamp spells between arkhan and the dragon lord, and arkhan can personally cast a spell from anyone in range for the extra bonuses.  Plus vanhels (granted with only zombies it's not so great), curse of years, arcane bolt, mystic shield, etc, all with extra range from arkhan.

I could see it working, sure.  Would even like to try running it.  But I don't have a dragon lord right now, and my zombies are in disarray, and my corpse cart unassembled, so while I'd like to try this one day, for now I'll be sticking to a grand host of nagash list based on deathrattle & morghasts.

[smucreo]

As a disclaimer, I should say the other reason why this magic heavy build doesn't appeal as much to me is because where I play lots of people play Tzeentch, so any kind of magic reliant list usually gets me thinking I'll get outmagicked and dispelled immediately... On the other hand with so many buffs upon buffs it could even surpass some Tzeentch lists at some points with a bit of luck.

[Sception]

With a dragon lord, arkhan, and three necromancers, you're looking at up to 11 casting attempts a turn, all with multiple buffs to the roll meaning you'll probably make most of those attempts.  That's a lot of spells to unbind, even for tzeentch, and a real drain on their fate dice.  Still a massively uphill battle, but to be honest I don't think there will be a single allegiance in this book that won't be facing an uphill battle against tzeentch, and at the same time I think tzeentch is going to be facing some pretty big nerfs in the not too distant future if they continue to be as overwhelmingly dominant in the tournament scene as they were at LVO.

[Iradekhorne]

11 minutes ago, smucreo said:

As a disclaimer, I should say the other reason why this magic heavy build doesn't appeal as much to me is because where I play lots of people play Tzeentch, so any kind of magic reliant list usually gets me thinking I'll get outmagicked and dispelled immediately... On the other hand with so many buffs upon buffs it could even surpass some Tzeentch lists at some points with a bit of luck.

Mortis engine,, corpse cart and  legion of sacrament.

You don't need luck with +6 to cast and dispell with nagash (or +5 for arkhan). eben any wizard can have +3 to cast and dispell +3!!!

They just deny ur magic if they were in range, and they have much more spellpower with the sacrament than any tzeentch army, because they have more attemps of cast and they know more spells.

The problem of tzeentch are his forepower, not his magic power, how can tzeentch  loose at magic with death with that diference?.....

 

[smucreo]

Not all of the spells have to pose an immediate threat, they can focus their attention on those that are really scary for them and save the LoC unbinds for Arkhan. The LoC also has the trait to unbind to up to 27" so there's no way he won't be in range most of the time, and it carries lots of buffs to casting/unbinding (+1 to cast and the thing with the dice where the result of the lowest dice is equal to that of the highest one). The Tzeentch player can also bring the Gaunt Summoner on a vortex and familiars and be even more annoying. And the blue scribes, and the changeling, etc

And even if you hurt some units depending on what they are they can use Fold Reality and regen them up, so that can soften the blow too. Again, the casting buffs are crazy good and extract a lot of value out of little guys, and it's way better than what we have before, but it still doesn't convince me. 

Against any other list I'm sure our magic will be almost unparalelled, but in my particular case I think I'm better off going another route for now  

[Lemon Knuckles]

So let's just write this out.: 

Arkhan + Mortis Engine + 3 Necromancers with Batallion option = 9 spells cast per turn and 5 unbinds per turn.   Arkhan casts with a +4 bonus, and necros with a +2 bonus, and unbinds against you within range are -1.   On average, 3 of those 11 casts will hit for double effect thanks to Locus.   Range of all spells is increased by 6", and the Engine provides extra protection for your casters from the batallion ability.   Necros can redirect wounds to summonables and the group gives 7 rolls per turn of Deathly Invocation.   Round this group out with a horde of summonables and maybe a balewind vortex?  Am I doing this right?

[Sception]

Again, tzeentch currently dismantles everything we've seen out of the new book just as easily, so Legion of Sacrament being weak against them is hardly worth mentioning.

[Killax]

37 minutes ago, Sception said:

Vanhel's is a necromancer warscroll spell, not a spell from either of the new lores, so from the wording in the preview it seems it would not gain the benefits of Locus of Shyish.

As for the Legion of Sacrament overall, a lot will depend on the individual spells, but to me the main thrust of it is looking to be the arkhan formation (arkhan, mortis, multiple necromancers), a dragon lord with the gold bracers (I'm not sure any legion will have an artefact as good for them), with the remaining points filled out with deadwalkers for the cheap battle line and the extra casting buff from a corpse cart, plus a balewind vortex if possible.

The chaff are just there to keep melee off the necromancers and soak some wounds while the list overall aimes to deal as much direct spell damage as possible before finishing off weakened enemies in melee with arkhan and the dragonlord.  There's decent protection for the big stuff (dragon lord shrugs wounds with the artefact, heals with the chalice if that's still a thing, arkhan has a formation that lets him pass at least some wounds to the mortis engine).  Casting wise, everything has significant bonuses to cast depending on what all they're in range of.  first turn +3 to everything, late game the faster mortis and monsters will probably separate from the necros, zombies, and corpse cart, reducing everything to a still respectable +2.  Plus arkhan's personal bonuses.  Plus a balewind on one of the necros, if it fits in the points.

Each wizard knows their own spells plus two from death/vampires, and each can cast two per hero phase, plus extra for Arkhan.  With three necros you'll have access to every necro spell, plus 4 vamp spells between arkhan and the dragon lord, and arkhan can personally cast a spell from anyone in range for the extra bonuses.  Plus vanhels (granted with only zombies it's not so great), curse of years, arcane bolt, mystic shield, etc, all with extra range from arkhan.

I could see it working, sure.  Would even like to try running it.  But I don't have a dragon lord right now, and my zombies are in disarray, and my corpse cart unassembled, so while I'd like to try this one day, for now I'll be sticking to a grand host of nagash list based on deathrattle & morghasts.

Hmm, well it would be the first Allegiance ability that indeed would specify the own Lore and exclude the spell the Wizard knows allready. Which from a design perspective feels odd because it means you have to remember that 9+  don't always do something... My best guess there would be that it applies to all Wizards in the Allegiance... Knowing the article suggests otherwise.

I think that in general Magic has a lot of caps on it and I don't see a ton of two-cast spell Wizards in Death so I agree that this probably isnt the most exciting Allegiance. But then again I do believe the intend of this Allegiance will really be to focus on indeed, scary Wizards. 

Other than that I would try to obtain a Vampire Lord on Dragon ASAP. Not so much because of this but in general because of GH2017. Monster generals are very viable and it's 100% likely that there will be AoE buff bubbles in this Allegiance such as we have seen in every Allegiance now. Thus the bigger the base the bigger the AoE buff. Too good to pass on so far for all competitive armies in my opinion. 

29 minutes ago, Sception said:

At the same time I think tzeentch is going to be facing some pretty big nerfs in the not too distant future if they continue to be as overwhelmingly dominant in the tournament scene as they were at LVO.

To be honest the Fate Dice system should have never been written the way it was. However enough Tzeentch units also suffer the cost from it.

Personally I like the idea of the dice effect but would have kept it at 9 dice re-rolls, which in itself is allready very potent.

[Lemon Knuckles]

2 minutes ago, Sception said:

Again, tzeentch currently dismantles everything we've seen out of the new book just as easily, so Legion of Sacrament being weak against them is hardly worth mentioning.

That's been true of everything I've ever written up sadly.

 

[Sception]

Locus of Shyish not an allegiance ability, it's a property of the lores themselves.

[Yeled]

Also, there are buffs/artifacts in the Maggotkin book that buff Nurgle Lore stuff but not warscroll spells. So it's not without precedent. 

[Foggy]

Arkhan has been my favourite so far of the mortarchs and loving the look of this Legion. However sure I will be tempted into trying out the others as they are all looking good so far. Hope this continues with tomorrow’s preview......hyped for this book. ?

[Vextol]

When the reviewers are talking about the 'locus of shyish' they keep saying the spell will resolve twice.  Does anyone have confirmation that the ability actually says "resolve twice" and not something like "cast and resolve the spell twice"?

It seems like some of the new battletomes (thinking nurgle) like to introduce these awesome concepts in such a way that they can never actually be used in a cool manner.  Grave yards have it pretty wrapped up here, but I could see a Kroak situation happening as well with some bad/intentional wording.