Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Drofnum]

2 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@Sception
what @swarmofseals said

@smucreo
With the 6" board limitation, I'm not convinced. This  "ambush" thing will often just mean you are sticking units way out of position on the side flanks of the board. Mortatchs can move as far as 21" with Ame. Pinions & the VLoZD moves 19". this gives you a lot more flexibility to get where you want to get without needing any ambush. A lot of people have this idea of ambushing behind the opponent, which will only happen if your opponent is playing very poorly. You don't need a whole lot of tools to beat an opponent whos playing poorly. This book has all kinds of mobility now, I just don't see the ambushing as useful at all. The only thing I can think of would be to hold some Morghast in reserve and wait till mid-late game when my opponent forgets and use the opportunity to come out of nowhere and hit hard. 

One thing with Ambushing is that it can force your opponent to change their gameplan just to mitigate the risk of a unit coming on behind them and getting in to their heroes.  If they are force to bubble wrap thats units that could have been pushing an objective that are now just used as a screen, etc.  The strength isnt always in the ability itself so much as how it forces your opponent to deal with it.

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

You say it like that isnt a huge advantage to a slow army...

Exact.

Fact is, Nurgle had acces to all Traits and stuff with GA Chaos. The Blight Tree is new. Its what gives the comp edge.

Fact is, Legions had acces to all Traits and stuff. The Graves and Legion allowance is whats new (free Keywords). Its what gives the comp edge.

With this Deaths slowness issue is resolved. Its hitting power is amped with Legion of Blood or Grand Host. Alternatively swarming boosts multiple small Heroes with Legion of Sacrement and Legion of Night.

My personal fav goes towards Legion of Night because it means you essentially obtain improved attrition (armour) but can also sneak in a VLoZD.

[smucreo]

5 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@Sception
what @swarmofseals said

@smucreo
With the 6" board limitation, I'm not convinced. This  "ambush" thing will often just mean you are sticking units way out of position on the side flanks of the board. Mortatchs can move as far as 21" with Ame. Pinions & the VLoZD moves 19". this gives you a lot more flexibility to get where you want to get without needing any ambush. A lot of people have this idea of ambushing behind the opponent, which will only happen if your opponent is playing very poorly. You don't need a whole lot of tools to beat an opponent whos playing poorly. This book has all kinds of mobility now, I just don't see the ambushing as useful at all. The only thing I can think of would be to hold some Morghast in reserve and wait till mid-late game when my opponent forgets and use the opportunity to come out of nowhere and hit hard. 

I guess it depends on the placement of the objectives, coming from all directions can still be useful I feel. Oh, and what @Drofnum said. What list do you have in mind?

[Killax]

16 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@smucreo
With the 6" board limitation, I'm not convinced. This  "ambush" thing will often just mean you are sticking units way out of position on the side flanks of the board. Mortatchs can move as far as 21" with Ame. Pinions & the VLoZD moves 19". this gives you a lot more flexibility to get where you want to get without needing any ambush. A lot of people have this idea of ambushing behind the opponent, which will only happen if your opponent is playing very poorly. You don't need a whole lot of tools to beat an opponent whos playing poorly. This book has all kinds of mobility now, I just don't see the ambushing as useful at all. The only thing I can think of would be to hold some Morghast in reserve and wait till mid-late game when my opponent forgets and use the opportunity to come out of nowhere and hit hard. 

The simple added power of the Ambush is also found in Gutrot Spume. It works and it works extremely well because your opponent now has to account for it whilst the centerline gravemarkers allow for "unbound" summonning.

Keeping two cheap Hex Wraith/Spirit Hosts units for Ambush enforces opponents to protect support heroes. Alternatively stick a full Zombie Dragon in there and threaten even hardier stuff.

Ambushes are amazing. Also @smucreo  

[Undeadly]

@WoollyMammoth

Alright, I won't deny you in saying that this is still an upgrade to death; I have never argued that this a direct nerf, aside from perhaps some issues on the total abandonment of the Old Summoning. Primarily for me, there is some frustration about how some minor things, like how rarely we'll ever get to use our Command Traits due to the focus on Mortarchs in both the rules and the Battalions, or some gripes about battalions or spells. Really, thats just from me feeling like there is some wasted potential.

However, the more I think about Summoning, the more I think that it can work very well. With the way that it works now, If I'm not mistaken, it is entirely possible to get a first turn charge. Place a Gravesite away from the enemy and load a bunch of Skeletons into it. If its your turn, advance a fast moving general up the field to pop the Gravesite, and boom; a 9" charge for them, or a giant road block. If the enemy gets the first turn, they will have to move up very quickly; putting them in range of our Spell casters, like Arkhan.

[Killax]

1 minute ago, Undeadly said:

like how rarely we'll ever get to use our Command Traits due to the focus on Mortarchs in both the rules and the Battalions, or some gripes about battalions or spells. Really, thats just from me feeling like there is some wasted potential.

However, the more I think about Summoning, the more I think that it can work very well. With the way that it works now, If I'm not mistaken, it is entirely possible to get a first turn charge. Place a Gravesite away from the enemy and load a bunch of Skeletons into it. If its your turn, advance a fast moving general up the field to pop the Gravesite, and boom; a 9" charge for them, or a giant road block. If the enemy gets the first turn, they will have to move up very quickly; putting them in range of our Spell casters, like Arkhan.

As with Summonning, the choice is yours.
- Nobody is forcing you to thake a Battalion.
- Nobody is forcing you to thake the named character attached to the specific Legion.
- There is only wasted potential (Command Traits) if you choose to do this.
- Summonning is only wasted potential if you do not choose to use any of your units for this.
- In the case of Legion of Night, Ambushing is only wasted potential if you do not choose to use any of your units for this.
- Having your Gravemarkers covered... Well... Again this is a choice to have it be done in the first place.

If you want to arm yourself against a possible strong opposing Shooting phase I think Legion of Night offers some amazing attrition buffs on top of the speed.
 

[Xasz]

What do you guys think of Prince Vhordrai vs VLoZD, without taking their command abilities into consideration.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

Leaders
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
- General
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: something
Vampire Lord (140)
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness
Prince Vhordrai (480)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blade & Shield
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Battalions
Lords of Sacrament (70)

Reinforcement Points (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

Maybe 1200p into characters is a bit much ^^

[Arkiham]

24 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

You say it like that isnt a huge advantage to a slow army...

.... that's excatly what I'm saying.

When it was announced gw (And a few here ) hyped up the summoning aspect loads. and people soon realised that summoming was garbage. It's a restriction for narrative an open play, not a "cool new way" to summon for matched. 

 

As is summoning for death now, they are addressing the imbalance of narrative an open, not making " cool new ways for matched play."

 

In reality the summoning Is such a minor part due to the advantages of just playing your unit normally due to the hyper aggressive play style of aos.

So let's quit pretending the gnarlmaw summoning aspect is amazing as you have to wait three turns to summon 10 plague bearers...and just realise that it's a nerf to summoning in matched play and start referring to it for its (currently ) only  worthwhile aspect. The Run and charge and very minor unit blocking ability.

[Undeadly]

13 minutes ago, Killax said:

As with Summonning, the choice is yours.
- Nobody is forcing you to thake a Battalion.
- Nobody is forcing you to thake the named character attached to the specific Legion.
- There is only wasted potential (Command Traits) if you choose to do this.
- Summonning is only wasted potential if you do not choose to use any of your units for this.
- In the case of Legion of Night, Ambushing is only wasted potential if you do not choose to use any of your units for this.
- Having your Gravemarkers covered... Well... Again this is a choice to have it be done in the first place.

If you want to arm yourself against a possible strong opposing Shooting phase I think Legion of Night offers some amazing attrition buffs on top of the speed.
 

Well, if we're talking about a competative level of play, than it would make the most amount of sense to use our Mortarchs and the Battalions they have. You cannot simply dismiss the fact that for the majority of the time, most people will include their Legion's Mortarch into their list. I can see the Command traits getting some use at smaller point levels, but even than, there are some real stinkers, like the "6+ to MW if they target you in combat" trait.

I look at it in this point of view; We have a limited amount of traits and artifacts, and for every bad one, that is one less good trait or artifact.

Also, I have no problem with Night's Ambushing; I think its a reasonably good mechanic that has it uses, and pairs nicely with Gravesites. Although it makes up for it by having the least amount of entirely unique artifacts, the most expensive Mortarch, and a okay secondary trait.

Personally, I think the Legion of Sacrament is the go to anti-shooting army, as when coupled with Arkhan's Command trait, or the copy cat version, and a Balewind, our spells can reach incredibly far. A 30" Amarathine Orb or a 36" Overwhelming Dread can really put a dent in a shooting armie's overall ability to out out the hurt, while remaining very far out of most shooting or Unbinding ranges. 

Although, if I may suggest a non-summoning complaint to you, what about this: Both Deadwalkers and Nighthaunt both recieved very little support in this book, especially compared to Deathrattle. Where Black Knights got a buff, Nagash's Host can give an extra attack and make GG troops, as well as give them another 6++ save, along with Night's "The Bait" rule, and the fact they recieved the only other non-mortarch battalion aside from Soulblight, who were also given quite a bit of attention.

Meanwhile, Deadwalkers aren't even mentioned by Keyword in the book, despite having 2 battleline. And Nighthaunt may as well keep using the rules featured in GH17 if they wish to remain pure Nighthaunt, seeing as they also recieved relatively nothing new besides access to the Artifacts and Gravesites. Their hero's don't even have DI, so that does little for them unless they bring along an ally.

 

 

[WoollyMammoth]

49 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

@WoollyMammoth

Alright, I won't deny you in saying that this is still an upgrade to death; I have never argued that this a direct nerf, aside from perhaps some issues on the total abandonment of the Old Summoning. Primarily for me, there is some frustration about how some minor things, like how rarely we'll ever get to use our Command Traits due to the focus on Mortarchs in both the rules and the Battalions, or some gripes about battalions or spells. Really, thats just from me feeling like there is some wasted potential.

However, the more I think about Summoning, the more I think that it can work very well. With the way that it works now, If I'm not mistaken, it is entirely possible to get a first turn charge. Place a Gravesite away from the enemy and load a bunch of Skeletons into it. If its your turn, advance a fast moving general up the field to pop the Gravesite, and boom; a 9" charge for them, or a giant road block. If the enemy gets the first turn, they will have to move up very quickly; putting them in range of our Spell casters, like Arkhan.

I agree with everything you are saying.

• Some old summoning was really good (morgast harbringers) which is no longer possible.
• The command trait thing is my biggest gripe in death. It affects a lot of armies but exacerbated in Death (especially this tome). There is no reason for this rule - allowing named chars to take command traits will not break the game.
• There are a lot of ways to get a first turn charge in this book. Any char on a fast moving mosnter can use the new 5" move spell. The key thing with the new summoning is you can summon 40 skeletons/9 spirit hosts/30 grave Guard etc within 9" and not just ... 5 grave guard. This makes it functional for the first time.

@Killax
You do not understand death players. Yeah you can not take a battalion, but death players have been waiting for a good battalion to take for 3 years. Nobody is forcing us to take the named char, but we WANT to take the named char. We also want to take a cool command trait. GW is forcing an "either, or" scenario blocking us from doing what most armies have no problem doing because GW decided that their "durthu" or  their "Kroq-Gar" no longer have names. GW needs to do one of two things

A. give us a "generic" Mortarch (ex. call Neferata a "Vampire Queen" with different rules). They could have easily done this but they did the OPPOSITE (made the VLoZD a named char)
B. Remove the arbitrary named char restriction. I was really hoping for an exception to the rule in this book, because I did not think they would go through the trouble of writing 24 command traits that the book is designed for you not to be able to take. 

[Drofnum]

I just dont get the endless complaints, this new book improves a lot.  Perhaps there are changes not to your liking but does that mean they are bad?  Not necessarily and how are you going to know without playing them or giving them a shot?  Does it fix everything?  No, obviously not, but what battletome makes every unit/combination you want to play viable?  I think expectations need to be tempered here.

Why just complain about what has changed and what you didnt get that you specifically wanted instead of looking out how you can make a new list that will work and that you will enjoy?  This book is definitely not bad in any way and improves death by leaps in many ways, I just dont get the negative attitude(entitlement imo) that comes with so much of this hobby honestly.

[smucreo]

26 minutes ago, Xasz said:

What do you guys think of Prince Vhordrai vs VLoZD, without taking their command abilities into consideration.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

Leaders
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
- General
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: something
Vampire Lord (140)
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness
Prince Vhordrai (480)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blade & Shield
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Battalions
Lords of Sacrament (70)

Reinforcement Points (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

Maybe 1200p into characters is a bit much ^^

Really cool list, I'd go for something similar but maybe with more skeletons than 10 as your second unit since it might get blasted into space being this small... Plus I'd want to use them as sponges for my necros so I'd expect them to take lots of damage. The prince really hits hard, but for its cost I'd get a VLOZD. I feel unless you use his command trait there isn't that big of a difference to justify paying extra. That being said, though, it fits nicely with your build getting you to 2000 points exactly, so there's that  

[Drofnum]

1 minute ago, WoollyMammoth said:

You do not understand death players. Yeah you can not take a battalion, but death players have been waiting for a good battalion to take for 3 years. Nobody is forcing us to take the named char, but we WANT to take the named char. We also want to take a cool command trait. GW is forcing an "either, or" scenario blocking us from doing what most armies have no problem doing because GW decided that their "durthu" or  their "Kroq-Gar" no longer have names. GW needs to do one of two things

I want a good named hero for my KO, I want a legit general option with a command ability or a battalion thats worth taking at ANY point cost. So many armies have these problems and expecting everything to get better in one battletome was just aiming for disappointment.  Some of the gripes would require a core rule change, which isnt happening until GH18 at the earliest.

I completely agree that they need to change the way named characters interact with command abilities and artifacts though. But coming from playing mainly KO/Seraphon, I would kill for the chance to have command abilities tied to my allegiance or to have a spell lore worth using(any spell lore at all please). 

[Drofnum]

I've been trying to get Nagash and a zombie dragon list to work, I definitely dont think its optimal but it could be fun for my local club games.

Nagash

Necromancer/Vamp lord

40 x Skeleton

10 x GG

Zombie Dragon

2 x Morghast

 

I think it leaves me a few points left over for something, probably another hero as that list is super light on those.  Could be fun in a Grand host list it, has some very glaring weaknesses I think but I want to play with Nagash and see how he does and have limited models as this isnt my main army.

[Killax]

11 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@Killax
You do not understand death players. Yeah you can not take a battalion, but death players have been waiting for a good battalion to take for 3 years. Nobody is forcing us to take the named char, but we WANT to take the named char. We also want to take a cool command trait. GW is forcing an "either, or" scenario blocking us from doing what most armies have no problem doing because GW decided that their "durthu" or  their "Kroq-Gar" no longer have names. GW needs to do one of two things

A. give us a "generic" Mortarch (ex. call Neferata a "Vampire Queen" with different rules). They could have easily done this but they did the OPPOSITE (made the VLoZD a named char)
B. Remove the arbitrary named char restriction. I was really hoping for an exception to the rule in this book, because I did not think they would go through the trouble of writing 24 command traits that the book is designed for you not to be able to take. 

I completely understand Death players. Don't for a moment think this GW aspect is so special. The prime reason I even hang around here is because in 40k the exact same happend to Chaos Space Marines. Not for two or three years, for straight 15 years...
Back to the topic, if you want to thake the named character, the best way to circumvent/continue to obtain acces to Command Traits remains to pick the one who isn't linked with the Legion in question. I do not agree that there is anything really blocking you from thaking a Command Trait, nor do I think named characters are required now to put up a strong competitive list. 

It would be really cool to see more models, having said that, the named characters in Legions of Nagash are actually great, also benifit from the Legion bonus and because of that going without a Command Trait is not the make or break deal for a competitive army. To give the same Glottkin example again, it made a straight top 10 apperance twice. Cancon even showed that a 2nd place is reachable... That's one game away from winning the event... With an army that does not have Shooting.

I agree with you that in general it would be better for the game if Named Characters would have a preset Command Trait like they do in 40K. At the same time, the Command Trait isn't the dealbreaker or power that should be looked for.
When I say this I mean that the essential part of any Legion of Nagash army isn't actually it's characters but the rest of the army.
- Legion effects apply on multiple units, next to the general.
- Graveyards affect Summonable units, these are not the general.
- If you optimize the both of these two aspects the general becomes roughly 25% of your army (maxed cost) while this can be okay, boosting 75% is a whole lot more relevant as focussing on the 25%.

...To put this in context with my own experiences, yes I use a Bloodthirser for my Khorne armies. This is absolutely not where my power comes from however. Every succesful step my army thakes comes from Bloodletters.
When I analyze what is going on with all Legions of Nagash I see the same potential to litterly deep strike tons of units who can obtain loads of attacks and have attrition options that far surpass that of Arkhan, Mannfred, Nefrata or indeed even Nagash. When you focus on that aspect the true power I see in the Legions comes from it's units. So every point spend into expensive characters is nice but at the same time removes from the strongest assets this book supplies.

[WoollyMammoth]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

I completely understand Death players. Don't for a moment think this GW aspect is so special. The prime reason I even hang around here is because in 40k the exact same happend to Chaos Space Marines. Not for two or three years, for straight 15 years...
Back to the topic, if you want to thake the named character, the best way to circumvent/continue to obtain acces to Command Traits remains to pick the one who isn't linked with the Legion in question. I do not agree that there is anything really blocking you from thaking a Command Trait, nor do I think named characters are required now to put up a strong competitive list. 

It would be really cool to see more models, having said that, the named characters in Legions of Nagash are actually great, also benifit from the Legion bonus and because of that going without a Command Trait is not the make or break deal for a competitive army. To give the same Glottkin example again, it made a straight top 10 apperance twice. Cancon even showed that a 2nd place is reachable... That's one game away from winning the event... With an army that does not have Shooting.

I agree with you that in general it would be better for the game if Named Characters would have a preset Command Trait like they do in 40K. At the same time, the Command Trait isn't the dealbreaker or power that should be looked for.
When I say this I mean that the essential part of any Legion of Nagash army isn't actually it's characters but the rest of the army.
- Legion effects apply on multiple units, next to the general.
- Graveyards affect Summonable units, these are not the general.
- If you optimize the both of these two aspects the general becomes roughly 25% of your army (maxed cost) while this can be okay, boosting 75% is a whole lot more relevant as focussing on the 25%.

...To put this in context with my own experiences, yes I use a Bloodthirser for my Khorne armies. This is absolutely not where my power comes from however. Every succesful step my army thakes comes from Bloodletters.
When I analyze what is going on with all Legions of Nagash I see the same potential to litterly deep strike tons of units who can obtain loads of attacks and have attrition options that far surpass that of Arkhan, Mannfred, Nefrata or indeed even Nagash. When you focus on that aspect the true power I see in the Legions comes from it's units. So every point spend into expensive characters is nice but at the same time removes from the strongest assets this book supplies.

I completely agree. All I wanted was an acknowledgment that it would be nice if named chars could have access to command traits in some way, even if only in this book. I'm going to write the FAQ team about it and stop talking about it.

The command traits are good, but not mandatory for matched play. This was not the case with GH2016 and the 5++; this was near-mandatory for matched play. I don't think that you cant make a competitive or even fun list using a named char as the general, but unlike artifacts you can stick on a side-kick hero, it feels like you are missing out on something when you have to just throw away the command traits. It just makes the book feel less exciting for no reason, which is a let down.

 

[Undeadly]

8 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I just dont get the endless complaints, this new book improves a lot.  Perhaps there are changes not to your liking but does that mean they are bad?  Not necessarily and how are you going to know without playing them or giving them a shot?  Does it fix everything?  No, obviously not, but what battletome makes every unit/combination you want to play viable?  I think expectations need to be tempered here.

Why just complain about what has changed and what you didnt get that you specifically wanted instead of looking out how you can make a new list that will work and that you will enjoy?  This book is definitely not bad in any way and improves death by leaps in many ways, I just dont get the negative attitude(entitlement imo) that comes with so much of this hobby honestly.

The endless complaints come from an unsatisfied group of players who aren't entirely happy with the book. Therefore, we come online to either confirm our doubts, or be corrected and relieved. GW built up a incredibly high level of expectations, that they admittedly couldn't live up to with the entire Malign Portents  event. What a large majority of the Death player-base wanted was a way to be competitive with armies along the lines of Stormcast, Tzneetch, and other armies with Battletomes. We expected a major rules overhaul after the confirmation that we would not be getting new models within this book, and aside from Gravesites and Deathly Invocations, we received a few admittedly basic buffs and the Artifacts/Command Traits. 

And I'm not even saying that the book is bad; I just think the book could be leaps and bounds better. What if we got more Battalions? Or support for a 

Besides that, if you wanted to encourage more optimistic attitudes in the discussion, perhaps instead of calling people entitled, do what @Killax is doing by engaging those who are negative, and than  providing reasonable answers along with suggesting uses of what we have gotten. Honestly, it was thanks to his insight that I realized that I didn't have to put my second set of Gravesites into the enemy's territory, and could actually use them in far more interesting ways. 

34 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I want a good named hero for my KO, I want a legit general option with a command ability or a battalion thats worth taking at ANY point cost. So many armies have these problems and expecting everything to get better in one battletome was just aiming for disappointment.  Some of the gripes would require a core rule change, which isnt happening until GH18 at the earliest.

I completely agree that they need to change the way named characters interact with command abilities and artifacts though. But coming from playing mainly KO/Seraphon, I would kill for the chance to have command abilities tied to my allegiance or to have a spell lore worth using(any spell lore at all please). 

What is Brokk Grunderson? Or a Arkanaut Admirable? And not only do you have Battalions, but you also have Arytcles, Footnotes and Amendments along with your command traits and artifacts. And what do you mean by saying a battalion that's worth taking at point cost? Because that's just paradoxical. A battalion's worth is entirely directed to its point cost; Even if I had a battalion that dealt, lets say, a 100 Mortal wounds to each Unit in your army every single phase, it still wouldn't be worth it if it was 10,000 points to fill.

And I think that it is unfair for Seraphon not get a Spell list, although in my mind, the Artycles make up for the lack of spells. And I agree that command abilities should be given to Named characters overall. 

[Xasz]

50 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Really cool list, I'd go for something similar but maybe with more skeletons than 10 as your second unit since it might get blasted into space being this small... Plus I'd want to use them as sponges for my necros so I'd expect them to take lots of damage. The prince really hits hard, but for its cost I'd get a VLOZD. I feel unless you use his command trait there isn't that big of a difference to justify paying extra. That being said, though, it fits nicely with your build getting you to 2000 points exactly, so there's that  

On top of a bonus attack here and there, a better spell... the mortal wound breath seems scary. 

It falls off quickly, but there is the chalice to get back to 6 or D6 mw.

(Funny, there is no indicator in which phase the breath is used... it doesn't matter but weird)

[Drofnum]

Just now, Undeadly said:

The endless complaints come from an unsatisfied group of players who aren't entirely happy with the book. Therefore, we come online to either confirm our doubts, or be corrected and relieved. GW built up a incredibly high level of expectations, that they admittedly couldn't live up to with the entire Malign Portents  event. What a large majority of the Death player-base wanted was a way to be competitive with armies along the lines of Stormcast, Tzneetch, and other armies with Battletomes. We expected a major rules overhaul after the confirmation that we would not be getting new models within this book, and aside from Gravesites and Deathly Invocations, we received a few admittedly basic buffs and the Artifacts/Command Traits. 

And I'm not even saying that the book is bad; I just think the book could be leaps and bounds better. What if we got more Battalions? Or support for a 

Besides that, if you wanted to encourage more optimistic attitudes in the discussion, perhaps instead of calling people entitled, do what @Killax is doing by engaging those who are negative, and than  providing reasonable answers along with suggesting uses of what we have gotten. Honestly, it was thanks to his insight that I realized that I didn't have to put my second set of Gravesites into the enemy's territory, and could actually use them in far more interesting ways. 

What is Brokk Grunderson? Or a Arkanaut Admirable? And not only do you have Battalions, but you also have Arytcles, Footnotes and Amendments along with your command traits and artifacts. And what do you mean by saying a battalion that's worth taking at point cost? Because that's just paradoxical. A battalion's worth is entirely directed to its point cost; Even if I had a battalion that dealt, lets say, a 100 Mortal wounds to each Unit in your army every single phase, it still wouldn't be worth it if it was 10,000 points to fill.

And I think that it is unfair for Seraphon not get a Spell list, although in my mind, the Artycles make up for the lack of spells. And I agree that command abilities should be given to Named characters overall. 

Brokk is never seen on the table, tournament or not I have never once seen him.  The Admiral is not seen in any competitive lists either as he brings nothing to the table other than a situationally decent command ability.  The battalion for KO are completely unusable as they require you to take models that are not even good as well as having huge point costs. What i meant by "at any point cost" is that KO wouldnt take them even if they were 60 points, they simply arent worth it. The artycles, ammendments and codes are the equivalent of your ward saves, gravesites and other allegiance abilities.

 

All i'm saying is that the complaint that not everything is great in this book is silly when you look across the range of battletomes and allegiances.  What i was doing was pointing out that maybe what you guys wanted with the battletome was unreasonable, it seems that you folks expected a perfect book to fit what you think death should be and didnt get that.  I have commented elsewhere on what can be done with what you've gotten but despite that and what @Killax has said the complaints continue to pile up and just shift from one thing to the next.  Maybe my irritation got the better of me on that post, its frustrating to see a great book come out and only see complaints about it.

[Drofnum]

6 minutes ago, Xasz said:

On top of a bonus attack here and there, a better spell... the mortal wound breath seems scary. 

It falls off quickly, but there is the chalice to get back to 6 or D6 mw.

(Funny, there is no indicator in which phase the breath is used... it doesn't matter but weird)

Isnt the breath listed under the units shooting profile?  I thought it was, but i may be mistaken.

 

Edit:  I was thinking of the un-named VLoZB

[Xasz]

Just now, Drofnum said:

Isnt the breath listed under the units shooting profile?  I thought it was, but i may be mistaken.

For VLoZD yes, not for Prince Vhordrai.

[Drofnum]

1 minute ago, Xasz said:

For VLoZD yes, not for Prince Vhordrai.

You beat my edit!  Yeah I was thinking of the wrong scroll, I would just run it like the normal VLoZD until they FAQ it. 

[Richelieu]

14 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

You beat my edit!  Yeah I was thinking of the wrong scroll, I would just run it like the normal VLoZD until they FAQ it. 

This is not necessary.  For example, the Lord Celestant on Dracoth has a lightning breath attack that is not listed in shooting weapons, but the regular dracothian guard have it listed as a shooting weapon.  I would play it how it is written.

[Undeadly]

10 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Brokk is never seen on the table, tournament or not I have never once seen him.  The Admiral is not seen in any competitive lists either as he brings nothing to the table other than a situationally decent command ability.  The battalion for KO are completely unusable as they require you to take models that are not even good as well as having huge point costs. What i meant by "at any point cost" is that KO wouldnt take them even if they were 60 points, they simply arent worth it. The artycles, ammendments and codes are the equivalent of your ward saves, gravesites and other allegiance abilities.

 

All i'm saying is that the complaint that not everything is great in this book is silly when you look across the range of battletomes and allegiances.  What i was doing was pointing out that maybe what you guys wanted with the battletome was unreasonable, it seems that you folks expected a perfect book to fit what you think death should be and didnt get that.  I have commented elsewhere on what can be done with what you've gotten but despite that and what @Killax has said the complaints continue to pile up and just shift from one thing to the next.  Maybe my irritation got the better of me on that post, its frustrating to see a great book come out and only see complaints about it.

And there you see the exact same problem that Death players face. Nagash is never seen on the table either, Tournament wise speaking, and I too have never seen him at any point in my life. Mannfred is not seen in any competitive lists, alongside units like the Coven Throne, Riderless Zombie Dragon and Black Coach. And now imagine if you had a good Battalion, that you had to take Brokk as your general. That's the problem with the way they've handled allegiances.  And I agree once again, that LoN is not a terrible battletome, but when compared to forces like Tzneetch or Stormcast, things can get very disheartening and annoying. Honestly, if those two Battletomes were toned down, there would be a lot less griping and anger in general when it comes to AoS. It also wouldn't annoy me that 1/3rd of all the players I have ever faced are Stormcast players, who have things like d3 mortal wound weapons FOR FREE in their retributor squads or ungodly monsters like Stardrakes, which still don't see the table as much.

LoN is a good book, in my opinon, but certainly not great in comparison to what is ruling the meta right now.

[Drofnum]

Just now, Richelieu said:

This is not necessary.  For example, the Lord Celestant on Dracoth has a lightning breath attack that is not listed in shooting weapons, but the regular dracothian guard have it listed as a shooting weapon.  I would play it how it is written.

What he is saying is that it never says what phase to use the breath weapon in.  I think the Celestant says to use it in the hero phase, no?