Wanna Start Tomb Kings but how?!

[Elmir]

My mate is Selling a super large TK selection btw... He's pretty much got the whole range with duplicates. 

 

You can PM me if you are interested in it (has to ship from Belgium) and I can check if he's willing to work out any international shipping.

[HiveKingTombTyrant]

The Royal Legion of Chariots still has a point cost on their Warscroll App (the free one) and is only unlockable if you buy the GHB2017 on that app.

 

It’s totally legal to play...

[themortalgod]

4 hours ago, HiveKingTombTyrant said:

The Royal Legion of Chariots still has a point cost on their Warscroll App (the free one) and is only unlockable if you buy the GHB2017 on that app.

 

It’s totally legal to play...

All the compendium warscroll battalions were removed from their respective documents.  This means it doesn't exist in the most recent edition of the Tomb Kings rules. It also doesn't have a points cost in GH 2017. What app do you see it having a pts cost in? It's not in warscroll builder. Is it in Azyr? Regardless, apps are rule references but the final authority is the official publications and in those documents, all the compendium battalions have been eradicated from existence. (though I'm sure if you ask nicely your opponent would be happy to let you play with it but don't expect to see it allowed in any tournament or league)

[themortalgod]

22 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

If i was taking an 8 wound, 460 point General, I would have two mounted "suicide" heralds for up to ten extra wounds.

Plus, they can bring back additional Chariots and Necropolis Knights while they are still alive, so there is value there beyond a 200-point Settra tax.

Personally, I feel this makes for such a high investment at that point. Add in a Liche Priest and a Tomb King (to make use of Settra's ability) and you are now at 1000pts just on heroes, none of which hit very hard or offer much threat on their own. The army quickly becomes a one trick pony that is all about dumping a ton of buffs onto a single unit of necro knights while chariots are battleline tax and play the role of disruption. Certainly can work but in my experience armies like this are rock/paper/scissors. Either your opponent can counter your super combo, or they can't. The game is largely decided before the armies are even deployed. 

That said, with Mystic Shield, Settra's 8 wounds go a decently long way. 2+ armor, followed by 5+ amulet save, followed by 6+ deathless minions. He is actually harder to kill than many monsters with far more wounds. (for example, he is way harder to kill than a Mortarch) Imo you are better off leaving the heralds at home so the army can diversify a bit. Its also important to remember Settra isn't meant to lead from the front. Gotta play him with the goal of commanding the army then only making tactical charges with him when his support is needed. He is not a hammer and when played like one he tends to be dead quickly.

I've been toying with the idea of running him in more of a skeleton horde list, which might do pretty well, where is more about maximizing his command ability across many units rather than doing the usual "buff necro knights" to god mode army. Not sure how it would play and I think it would struggle with armies like Tzeentch, but it would be more versatile.

Something along the lines of:

TK in Exalted Chariot - General, Ring of Immortality, Master of the Black Arts. 

Tomb Queen

3x Chariots

3x Chariots

3x Chariots

5x Horsemen

5x Horsemen

30x Skeletons with Spears

20x Archers

20x Archers

10x Tomb Guard

Total: 2000pts

 

Basically death by a thousand needles.  

 

 

 

[Trayanee]

6 hours ago, HiveKingTombTyrant said:

The Royal Legion of Chariots still has a point cost on their Warscroll App (the free one) and is only unlockable if you buy the GHB2017 on that app.

 

It’s totally legal to play...

The mobile app is not updated properly and should not be used as a rules reference. The last version of Tomb Kings compendium is the go to source. Also the warscroll builder website tends to be updated with latest point values. If your group agrees, you can still use old values, but I doubt any tournament will allow you to do so. 

[Kyriakin]

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

Personally, I feel this makes for such a high investment at that point. Add in a Liche Priest and a Tomb King (to make use of Settra's ability) and you are now at 1000pts just on heroes, none of which hit very hard or offer much threat on their own. The army quickly becomes a one trick pony that is all about dumping a ton of buffs onto a single unit of necro knights while chariots are battleline tax and play the role of disruption. Certainly can work but in my experience armies like this are rock/paper/scissors. Either your opponent can counter your super combo, or they can't. The game is largely decided before the armies are even deployed. 

That said, with Mystic Shield, Settra's 8 wounds go a decently long way. 2+ armor, followed by 5+ amulet save, followed by 6+ deathless minions. He is actually harder to kill than many monsters with far more wounds. (for example, he is way harder to kill than a Mortarch) Imo you are better off leaving the heralds at home so the army can diversify a bit. Its also important to remember Settra isn't meant to lead from the front. Gotta play him with the goal of commanding the army then only making tactical charges with him when his support is needed. He is not a hammer and when played like one he tends to be dead quickly.

I've been toying with the idea of running him in more of a skeleton horde list, which might do pretty well, where is more about maximizing his command ability across many units rather than doing the usual "buff necro knights" to god mode army. Not sure how it would play and I think it would struggle with armies like Tzeentch, but it would be more versatile.

Something along the lines of:

TK in Exalted Chariot - General, Ring of Immortality, Master of the Black Arts. 

Tomb Queen

3x Chariots

3x Chariots

3x Chariots

5x Horsemen

5x Horsemen

30x Skeletons with Spears

20x Archers

20x Archers

10x Tomb Guard

Total: 2000pts

Basically death by a thousand needles.  

My personal issue with this type of force us one of aesthetics

I guess most choose Tomb Kings for their look and lore, as nobody would choose them for their competitiveness (post-2017) or affordability.

Therefire, feel an army with none of the Big Three iconic reanimants (i.e. Sphinxes, Snakes and Ushabti) is too far removed from why TK is my favorite faction.

[HiveKingTombTyrant]

Strange, all the tomb Kings warscrolls are updated in the phone App, and the two battalion not only have points, but again, are only unlockable if you buy the ghb2017...

 

I believe GW says any legal document they have on any of their mobile devices are legal for tournament play? It’s on their app, with a point cost, and a squad builder. Sounds like people are just assuming that because it’s not available in the other, more popular builder that it’s not legal? If GW makes an announcement or fully removes them from the phone app i’m all for building something new, but i’m Kind of tired of seeing people push this on legacy armies— though I do know of other, specific legacy Warscroll battalions that we’re removed from the phone app when the ghb2017 came out.

 

That alone says to me that the TK WSB’s are still legal to play, so long as they aren’t removed from the WH AoS app.

[Scythian]

While I am reticent to discourage a player’s passion for an army, you’re only going to feel left out in the end. The Kings, unfortunately, are gone and likely not to return. You’d be better off just playing Legions of Nagash which have a lot to offer. 

[themortalgod]

21 minutes ago, Scythian said:

While I am reticent to discourage a player’s passion for an army, you’re only going to feel left out in the end. The Kings, unfortunately, are gone and likely not to return. You’d be better off just playing Legions of Nagash which have a lot to offer. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see them return in some form. Death needs more sub-factions and GW has mentioned a chariot themed undead force in the fluff. That said, I wouldn't expect it soon and would expect them to be quite different with a whole new range. Though, what will drive that more than anything is if players keep wanting to play them. If GW sees TK models continuing to hold high value on Ebay years after they are discontinued that will communicate to GW that an Egypt style undead force is in demand and a worthy investment. 

Traditionally TKs didn't sell very well. (Though I'd attribute that heavily due to how expensive they used to be with metal upgrade packs up until the last edition or two, but even since, most of the line was finecast or metal and many of the sculpts, while cool, are pretty poor quality. (For example Ushabti, sweet theme but looking close at one of the models and you realize most of the details are really sloppily sculpted and cast.). Not to mention TKs were always late to get books and usually were near bottom power level. They always felt like an afterthought which I suspect was a driving force in their poor sales. They were always a much more costly army to build than Vamp Counts and were significantly weaker in most editions. Tough sell. 

I'd also add in that it is worth emailing their support team and asking. A couple years ago I emailed asking for them to bring back Skullvane Manse. At that time I figured the odds of that were low at best, but I suspect I wasn't the only one who asked for it and low and behold, it is back. (Now called Warscryer Citadel)

(Plus I cleverly solve the "feeling left out" problem by playing both LoN AND TK :D)

 

[themortalgod]

18 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

My personal issue with this type of force us one of aesthetics

I guess most choose Tomb Kings for their look and lore, as nobody would choose them for their competitiveness (post-2017) or affordability.

Therefire, feel an army with none of the Big Three iconic reanimants (i.e. Sphinxes, Snakes and Ushabti) is too far removed from why TK is my favorite faction.

Thats fair, but also remember, you don't need to run 1000+pts in stacking her buffs to run the above. I just find the cost of things like Snakes AND a bodyguarded Settra combo just pigeonholes you into a very one-dimensional army. Though, I'd say Sphynx are basically pointed out of viability. I feel like GW knee ******-over nerfed them. (Same with Catapults and Scorpions)

 

[Kyriakin]

With regards to the TK removal, I still dont understand why they never just kept this half of the army as a smaller faction...

Royal Warsphinx / Warsphinx / Necrosphinx

Necropolis Knights / Sepulchral Stalkers

Ushabti with Bows / Ushabti with Hand Weapons

Tomb Guard (battleline)

Plus various characters, such as the Heralds, Scarab Prince and Necrotect.

[kenshin620]

5 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

With regards to the TK removal, I still dont understand why they never just kept this half of the army as a smaller faction...

 

Cause Arkham is too busy palling around with his necromancer friends and he forgot his sphinx keys in his other trousers.

[themortalgod]

3 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

With regards to the TK removal, I still dont understand why they never just kept this half of the army as a smaller faction...

Royal Warsphinx / Warsphinx / Necrosphinx

Necropolis Knights / Sepulchral Stalkers

Ushabti with Bows / Ushabti with Hand Weapons

Tomb Guard (battleline)

Plus various characters, such as the Heralds, Scarab Prince and Necrotect.

1

Ushabti were finecast which GW really wanted to move away from, and all the other skeleton-based models were the old exaggerated proportions style which I suspect they also wanted to do away with. Thus the whole army needed a new range if they were to be maintained. 

[Kyriakin]

4 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Ushabti were finecast which GW really wanted to move away from, and all the other skeleton-based models were the old exaggerated proportions style which I suspect they also wanted to do away with. Thus the whole army needed a new range if they were to be maintained. 

... and yet Fell Bats, Bat Swarms and Blood Knights still make up most of Soulblight.

Plus, Zombies just got a reboxing, and have horrible proportions.

Anyway, the Tomb Guard archetype weren't as bad. I intentionally removed all of the generic skellies.

[themortalgod]

1 minute ago, Kyriakin said:

... and yet Fell Bats, Bat Swarms and Blood Knights still make up most of Soulblight.

Plus, Zombies just got a reboxing, and have horrible proportions.

Plus, the Tomb Guard archetype weren't as bad. I intentionally removed all of the generic skellies.

Different situation. They knew they wanted at least one undead faction. Vamp counts were more modern (overall with a few exceptions) and sold way better historically. Yes, they still have a few remnant old models, but expect those to be replaced at some point here. Plus VCs got some amazing new models during end times, no way GW was going to remove that faction.  

Tomb Guard are much nicer sculpts, I agree, but their proportions match the old skeleton box.

Also its no coincidence that Zombies, Bat Swarms, and Fel Bats are all horribly inefficient pts wise. GW kept them in the range but they are basically dissuading players from actually fielding them. Zombies will always see play, but I haven't seen fel bats or bat swarms on the table in years. And if your goal is strength, 2pts more for a skeleton is a no-brainer.  Blood Knights are a red herring but I think GW has plans to bring a new box of them out at some point here so doesn't want to kill off the unit. My guess is they originally planned for all the legions to be separate battletomes with mini releases but then undead hasn't represented a big enough % of the sales to warrant such an investment, thus they got mooshed into one book and new models pushed back a bit in the schedule. But thats just speculation.

 

[Kyriakin]

I stand by the assertion that a new desert-ish undead faction should have been "made up" to keep the Sphinx and Snakes in the webstore.

Reading the Yoyhammer Reddit, 9th Age forums and eBay, GW seems to have handed quite a lot of lucrative business to illegal recasters, Mantic and Last Chance to Buy scalpers.

Plus, you know, the Total War sequal was not based around the likes of Firebellies, Lion Rangers, Shadowblades, Maneaters or Scourge Privateers...

[themortalgod]

16 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

I stand by the assertion that a new desert-ish undead faction should have been "made up" to keep the Sphinx and Snakes in the webstore.

Reading the Yoyhammer Reddit, 9th Age forums and eBay, GW seems to have handed quite a lot of lucrative business to illegal recasters, Mantic and Last Chance to Buy scalpers.

Plus, you know, the Total War sequal was not based around the likes of Firebellies, Lion Rangers, Shadowblades, Maneaters or Scourge Privateers...

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, was merely pointing out that likely logic that GW used to decide not to. 

Also Total War is a really weird case. I have no idea why it was set in Fantasy but if I had to guess it was because contracts were signed before End Times and overall direction of the game was determined back then. I'm sure GW would have preferred it set in AoS with no sign of TKs at all but the ball was already rolling. 

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

Also Total War is a really weird case. I have no idea why it was set in Fantasy but if I had to guess it was because contracts were signed before End Times and overall direction of the game was determined back then. I'm sure GW would have preferred it set in AoS with no sign of TKs at all but the ball was already rolling. 

AoS Total War wouldnt make much sense given how everyone just pops out of portals to invade other realms so the strategic map would be near impossible to make. A more traditional RTS I think would fit AoS better (though RTS on a whole are kind of dead atm).

 

Plus weirdly enough AoS has existed for 2 years now and yet not a single large video game has been made for it. Yet there are WFB games a plenty from Vermintide to Mordheim.

Heck theres a Man O War game (granted its mostly a pile of trash but it still exists).  I think GW may have given free reign to the WFB IP but is still guarding the AoS IP.

[Kyriakin]

8 hours ago, Scythian said:

While I am reticent to discourage a player’s passion for an army, you’re only going to feel left out in the end. The Kings, unfortunately, are gone and likely not to return. You’d be better off just playing Legions of Nagash which have a lot to offer. 

That's what they said about Chaos Dwarfs, but the community kept them alive and the visible following will have likely factored into Forgeworld's decision to pick them up later.

Ditto Blood Bowl, etc.

A Made to Order run might be possible, at the very least.

[themortalgod]

10 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

AoS Total War wouldnt make much sense given how everyone just pops out of portals to invade other realms so the strategic map would be near impossible to make. A more traditional RTS I think would fit AoS better (though RTS on a whole are kind of dead atm).

 

Plus weirdly enough AoS has existed for 2 years now and yet not a single large video game has been made for it. Yet there are WFB games a plenty from Vermintide to Mordheim.

Heck theres a Man O War game (granted its mostly a pile of trash but it still exists).  I think GW may have given free reign to the WFB IP but is still guarding the AoS IP.

Yeah, though, I think that is also driven by long contract lead ups. There almost certainly will be AoS games coming but its entirely possible that contracts for games get negotiated years before production on the game even starts let alone release date. Total War also looks really "old" to me, it doesn't feel like modern graphics, almost as if the games had their engines and assets created years ago but were delayed for whatever reason.

But yeah, I agree, the whole "realms" thing really makes the setting so difficult to solidify for story. I felt that was a really dumb idea the moment I first heard about it and I still feel that way. I'm hoping that Malign Portents is leading to some major celestial event that actually will tether the world back together again into a new, persistent existence. Hopefully not as stale as the old world was but something that gives the world a sense of meaning and struggle again. (which also means we need some beleaguered factions like the Empire of old that represent fighters just struggling to survive who actually want peace. We know they exist in the setting but they aren't represented in the game.)

 

[Sleboda]

I have more than a dozen bow ushabti and a few dozen great weapon ones.

What do you consider a reasonable price?

[Sleboda]

18 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Not to mention TKs were always late to get books and usually were near bottom power level. They always felt like an afterthought which I suspect was a driving force in their poor sales.

6th Ed TK book was a crowning achievement for GW. It was perfectly balanced and fun.

When Robin Cruddace was assigned the most recent version, the army was pretty much destroyed.

I don't know who to blame - GW for giving the project to a guy who did not have the skill and knowledge needed for the job, or Robin for not realizing his faults and getting what he needed to do a good job.

 

Either way, that book turned out to be pretty much the least competitive Warhammer Armies book every produced, which drained almost all the joy from the army. That is why the army died, I believe.

The newer models were uh-maze-ing, but without rules that made them worth using, there was just no incentive to spend hobby time and money on them. Thus, poor sales, poor event participation, and their demise. All because of a misassigned project.

[themortalgod]

23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

6th Ed TK book was a crowning achievement for GW. It was perfectly balanced and fun.

When Robin Cruddace was assigned the most recent version, the army was pretty much destroyed.

I don't know who to blame - GW for giving the project to a guy who did not have the skill and knowledge needed for the job, or Robin for not realizing his faults and getting what he needed to do a good job.

 

Either way, that book turned out to be pretty much the least competitive Warhammer Armies book every produced, which drained almost all the joy from the army. That is why the army died, I believe.

The newer models were uh-maze-ing, but without rules that made them worth using, there was just no incentive to spend hobby time and money on them. Thus, poor sales, poor event participation, and their demise. All because of a misassigned project.

Exactly, but even at perfectly balanced its tough to sell to FOTMers. It will sell to those who love the army, but to get big sales numbers you need to FOTM crowd and they are looking for top 20% power level. 

Though, for me, while I was always drawn to TK's I never really was willing to invest in them until they got their plastic range. Back when you had flimsy plastic skeletons holding metal upgrades such as shields I had no interest at all in the army. Just couldn't bring myself to dealing with all the issues and cost that so much metal used to cause back in the day.

 

 

[Sception]

eh, I found the 6th ed TK book to be rather flat and dull, like most books from that era.  and while TK might have been ok, I don't personally recall it as the golden age of faction balance that many do.  After all, rarely have GW messed up so badly that they admitted as such by cannonizing a community developed patch, as they did with 6e dark elves.

8th ed book was a mess balance-wise, as most early edition books are, especially as they hadn't quite figured out how to make undead rules work properly with the major changes in 8e, but the bombastic big new stuff with the sphynxes was visually arresting in a way that chariot spam hadn't been in a while.  And adding in Arkhan gave the army new conceptual room for opposing subfactions, interesting internal strife, and just a greater scope for varrying personality that hadn't been there before.  I mean, theoretically individual tomb kings could have unique personalities and motivations, but in practice they never actually did until it was implied that some of them actually embraced their undead curse and secretly supported, or were at least willing to entertain the idea of supporting, Nagash.

An additional book after the VC book had finished working the kinks out of how undead could function in a game where every horde unit was functionally unbreakable anyway would have been nice.  Could have really done something for the TK.  Whether it would have been the justification needed to push through the needed revamp of the entire TK line after the update to skeleton models on the vamo count end, well...

Honestly, IMO the best ruleset TK have seen relative to everything else in the game was their first AoS compendium, and they saw something of a... revival is the wrong word, as it implies a previous period of vivacity that TK never really enjoyed, but even so they seemed to be picking up in popularity even as the warhammer scene was otherwise hemhoraging players due to the deeply flawed conception and early rollout of the new game.

Such a shame that, by that point, the decision must have already been made to axe them.

And maybe if the community pushes them to the extent the chaos dwarf community did, they might bring them back one day, but that was a long, long dark period for chaos dwarfs, and the TK community doesn't really strike me as up to it, and if they were I somehow doubt they'd be able to show the combination of cohesion and restraint needed to maintain faction rules sufficiently balanced (honestly, slightly underpowered) as to have major events support their use.  Honestly, I'm not convinced the independant competitive sceen for AoS is recovered enough to do so, anyway, nor sufficiently sympathetic to hear TK players out on a homebrew ruleset when there technically still are legal first party rules for their faction in print, however badly those rules have suffered from power creep and nerfs.  I mean, why should they let TK players use a homebrew book instead of compendium rules, but not brettonians, old empire players, most orcs & goblins, elf players, slaanesh players, most dwarf players, most skaven players, beastmen players, old chaos warrior players, even ye olde chaos dwarfs?

The TK situation rules wise is very bad, but far, far from uniquely so such to gather sympathy, especially when the last memory most players now have of tomb kings is criminally underpriced necroknights.

And, as this thread points out, where would potential new players even go to join them?  Even in the dark times, there were straight forward and affordable conversions and counts as to make chaos dwarfs work even without model support.  The same cannot be said for tomb kings.  What can a new player even try to do for chariots, sphynxes, or ushabti?  There's no suitable replacement for TK looking shields and helmets - converted, third party, or otherwise.

I want to keep the faith.  I would gladly contribute to to an ongoing, living TK community battletome if these issues could be addressed, but...

[themortalgod]

30 minutes ago, Sception said:

eh, I found the 6th ed TK book to be rather flat and dull, like most books from that era.  and while TK might have been ok, I don't personally recall it as the golden age of faction balance that many do.  After all, rarely have GW messed up so badly that they admitted as such by cannonizing a community developed patch, as they did with 6e dark elves.

8th ed book was a mess balance-wise, as most early edition books are, especially as they hadn't quite figured out how to make undead rules work properly with the major changes in 8e, but the bombastic big new stuff with the sphynxes was visually arresting in a way that chariot spam hadn't been in a while.  And adding in Arkhan gave the army new conceptual room for opposing subfactions, interesting internal strife, and just a greater scope for varrying personality that hadn't been there before.  I mean, theoretically individual tomb kings could have unique personalities and motivations, but in practice they never actually did until it was implied that some of them actually embraced their undead curse and secretly supported, or were at least willing to entertain the idea of supporting, Nagash.

An additional book after the VC book had finished working the kinks out of how undead could function in a game where every horde unit was functionally unbreakable anyway would have been nice.  Could have really done something for the TK.  Whether it would have been the justification needed to push through the needed revamp of the entire TK line after the update to skeleton models on the vamo count end, well...

Honestly, IMO the best ruleset TK have seen relative to everything else in the game was their first AoS compendium, and they saw something of a... revival is the wrong word, as it implies a previous period of vivacity that TK never really enjoyed, but even so they seemed to be picking up in popularity even as the warhammer scene was otherwise hemhoraging players due to the deeply flawed conception and early rollout of the new game.

Such a shame that, by that point, the decision must have already been made to axe them.

And maybe if the community pushes them to the extent the chaos dwarf community did, they might bring them back one day, but that was a long, long dark period for chaos dwarfs, and the TK community doesn't really strike me as up to it, and if they were I somehow doubt they'd be able to show the combination of cohesion and restraint needed to maintain faction rules sufficiently balanced (honestly, slightly underpowered) as to have major events support their use.  Honestly, I'm not convinced the independant competitive sceen for AoS is recovered enough to do so, anyway, nor sufficiently sympathetic to hear TK players out on a homebrew ruleset when there technically still are legal first party rules for their faction in print, however badly those rules have suffered from power creep and nerfs.  I mean, why should they let TK players use a homebrew book instead of compendium rules, but not brettonians, old empire players, most orcs & goblins, elf players, slaanesh players, most dwarf players, most skaven players, beastmen players, old chaos warrior players, even ye olde chaos dwarfs?

The TK situation rules wise is very bad, but far, far from uniquely so such to gather sympathy, especially when the last memory most players now have of tomb kings is criminally underpriced necroknights.

And, as this thread points out, where would potential new players even go to join them?  Even in the dark times, there were straight forward and affordable conversions and counts as to make chaos dwarfs work even without model support.  The same cannot be said for tomb kings.  What can a new player even try to do for chariots, sphynxes, or ushabti?  There's no suitable replacement for TK looking shields and helmets - converted, third party, or otherwise.

I want to keep the faith.  I would gladly contribute to to an ongoing, living TK community battletome if these issues could be addressed, but...

Well, Kings of War effectively has a TKs line. No chariots of Sphynxes but they do have Ushabti like models and Egypt style skeletons along with a catapult. Though, personally, I don't feel their range is very strong in terms of aesthetic quality. Though, the Chaos Dwarf situation does bring up an interesting alternative potential in the form of a Forge World army. I could live with that if the rules and models are well done.