chord Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 10 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: They need two bow shots per round. I like that idea. I was thinking lowering points or improving the to hit/wound, but your idea is way better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABBIT Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Agreed Shadow Warriors aren't worth it for less than 20. 200pts per 10 is too much. Its when you get to 30 and save 100 pts that they become ok to use. 2 attacks in combat plus shooting and rerolls to hit in cover mean they become quite potent especially with their 12" vanguard move to steal a march on the enemy towards an objective or Alpha blocking. Spire guard cost 300 for 30 shots at 4's to hit and re roll 1's. Shadow Warriors are 500 for 30 shots at 3's to hit and reroll misses if in cover. The 12" vanguard move adds to their range in the first turn helping them alpha strike/snipe more effectively. Could be a surprise for your opponent who thinks their mage is safe . In the above comparison you could almost get another 30 Spire guard and have 50-60 shots for the same price so it doesn't look worth it but SW do get 2 combat attacks which are not supported well by only 1" range but its better than a kick in the goolies. We need some AELF keyword buffs from heroes like many other armies get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalchaos34 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, WABBIT said: Agreed Shadow Warriors aren't worth it for less than 20. 200pts per 10 is too much. Its when you get to 30 and save 100 pts that they become ok to use. 2 attacks in combat plus shooting and rerolls to hit in cover mean they become quite potent especially with their 12" vanguard move to steal a march on the enemy towards an objective or Alpha blocking. Spire guard cost 300 for 30 shots at 4's to hit and re roll 1's. Shadow Warriors are 500 for 30 shots at 3's to hit and reroll misses if in cover. The 12" vanguard move adds to their range in the first turn helping them alpha strike/snipe more effectively. Could be a surprise for your opponent who thinks their mage is safe . In the above comparison you could almost get another 30 Spire guard and have 50-60 shots for the same price so it doesn't look worth it but SW do get 2 combat attacks which are not supported well by only 1" range but its better than a kick in the goolies. We need some AELF keyword buffs from heroes like many other armies get. I dont know why all the Aelf armies have 3 units and their heroes have an ability that only helps that allegiance. If they were smart they would simply have most of them say AELF, maybe tone some down, and BOOM, everyone will buy all their Aelf stuff overnight. Why would I bother taking a dragon noble? I guess if I have 30 dragon knights? None of that makes sense, even the Dispossed and the Free Peoples got to share their keywords. The only splitting I can agree with in Aelves is the old High/Wood/Dark split, which makes perfect sense and allows you to focus on the classic builds. As it stands now even your Druchii are disjointed and split between pirates, cults, and serpentis, with only one piece of their range even getting special rules . Heres hoping for a new Aelf book in the works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABBIT Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Yeah I agree I can only assume it's because there is something in the pipeline. The Aelf keyword is still there on all the high born, Druchi and wanderer units but I haven't seen anything use it so I assume it must be a foundation block for a renewed Aelf faction with the current smaller alliegences mixed in. It's been 2 years now and still no Aelf renewal. I have a feeling it won't be a big drop, just smaller allegiance drops to start filling them out and retiring those no longer supported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, WABBIT said: Yeah I agree I can only assume it's because there is something in the pipeline. The Aelf keyword is still there on all the high born, Druchi and wanderer units but I haven't seen anything use it so I assume it must be a foundation block for a renewed Aelf faction with the current smaller alliegences mixed in. It's been 2 years now and still no Aelf renewal. I have a feeling it won't be a big drop, just smaller allegiance drops to start filling them out and retiring those no longer supported. The two models from Silver Tower have the aelf keyword and in the ghb2017 are in the aelf section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABBIT Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 37 minutes ago, chord said: The two models from Silver Tower have the aelf keyword and in the ghb2017 are in the aelf section Yes I know I meant I haven't seen any abilities, buffs or general command abilities refer to "Aelf'. Not much point in a keyword if you don't use it so something must be coming. In theory all units with the aelf keyword should be listed with the silver tower models as well as their own alliegences. It would make trying to build an aelven army so much easier. I have to switch in and out of so many factions now it's very annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 2 hours ago, WABBIT said: Yes I know I meant I haven't seen any abilities, buffs or general command abilities refer to "Aelf'. Not much point in a keyword if you don't use it so something must be coming. In theory all units with the aelf keyword should be listed with the silver tower models as well as their own alliegences. It would make trying to build an aelven army so much easier. I have to switch in and out of so many factions now it's very annoying. good points but since high Aelves have no special abilities its a little less to worry about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone2040 Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Eh, I don't see the drama. There are very few buffs that effect things at a racial level. Humans and Dwarves, contrary to what has been said, don't have any buffs that work outside factions. You don't see Free Peoples being able to buff Devoted, or Kharadron Overlords able to buff Dispossessed, or visa versa in both cases. It's just how AoS as a game is made, factions buff their own faction, and have very little to do with things outside it. As for Spireguard vs Shadow Warriors. It's going to be extremely unlikely to get 30 Shadow Warriors into cover, so you're definitely going to lose out on one of the Shadow Warrior abilities. At 500 points, I feel that it's probably a bit too much to be spending 1/4 of your army on one unit, so I don't really see Massive Regiments honestly being that useful for them. Overall Shadow Warriors seem a shade overpriced for what they actually can do, but I feel the 12" move at the start of the game is their x-factor. It allows them to sneak up the sides early, and put some harrassment onto enemy units from turn 1. Spireguard on the other hand may not make much use out of their bows turn 1. A unit of Shadow Warriors therefore, can put some early pressure onto enemy objectives or fragile enemy units that Spireguard cannot. It's also interesting to point out that 3 shot Reavers don't actually put out much more damage in shooting than Shadow Warriors. Of course, this is to be expected as Reavers are cheaper, but their 'thing' comes from the free move they get before/after shooting. In either case, Shadow Warriors are the better combat unit, and are the most suited unit that Swifthawk Agents have to taking the fight to the enemy. Sadly, I think the suffer a bit for having the bows, and hence a dual purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerpot_chimp Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 5 hours ago, someone2040 said: It's also interesting to point out that 3 shot Reavers don't actually put out much more damage in shooting than Shadow Warriors. Of course, this is to be expected as Reavers are cheaper, but their 'thing' comes from the free move they get before/after shooting. Reavers are also a pretty good candidate for the Guardians of the Dawnspire martial defence ability! It's a lot of moving parts and you'll probably never get it all working due to their huge footprint and short range but 15 of them getting martial defence'd is 90 shots in a turn. Shame you can't get too many buffs affecting that, bar adding even more moving parts to the combo with an Azyros and Skywarden of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABBIT Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 7 hours ago, someone2040 said: Eh, I don't see the drama. There are very few buffs that effect things at a racial level. Humans and Dwarves, contrary to what has been said, don't have any buffs that work outside factions. You don't see Free Peoples being able to buff Devoted, or Kharadron Overlords able to buff Dispossessed, or visa versa in both cases. It's just how AoS as a game is made, factions buff their own faction, and have very little to do with things outside it. True and I think you're right we may never get racial keyword support buffs and models now but why have racial keywords if they don't do anything? I'm not saying it's a problem but at the very least it would be nice from an army building point of view to have all units of a race listed together for those of us who want to build armies in that way. I have about 400 dark elves, 600 high elves and 400 woodelves in my collection (I started with 2nd edition in the 80's) so I like to build order armies that draw on all those models. AoS started very open and flexible allowing us the freedom to build whatever armies we wanted. Given that freedom many didn't know how to react or what to do with that freedom and instead demanded more restrictions. That's fine but it's gone too far now. It's starting to feel like a marketing tool more than a framework to build your armies on. I find the battle line tax incredibly frustrating and it blocks me from playing the models I want to. The points cost should be enough to restrict the number of powerful units. We can ignore matched play rules and play open play games but most people want a framework to build on and I just think the battle line choices today are far too restrictive. If you're unlucky enough to collect a faction with poor and/or expensive battle line with few options then it can really harm your competitiveness and enjoyment of the game. I can't buy the units I want because my battle line requirements are too high. For examples wanderers, I love glade guard but I dont like their rules and cost so I would rather spend my points elsewhere. There are no other good choices though, eternal guard are great but I don't need 3 units of them. Too many battleline units are alliegence specific when they should be race specific and too many elite units are not battleline at all. to make things worse too many battleline units are only battle line if you take specific hero models....why? How does that improve the game? It doesn't it just frustrates our army building process and there are too many limitations in AoS now. Army building is now a very complicated and time consuming process which only makes it harder for new players or those with less time available to play and puts them at a disadvantage. We still end up with carbon copy armies and a lack of imagination in the builds. I support the idea of a framework to build armies around but it's gone too far now. I think GW have listened too much to utube commentators and tourenment players and not enough to regular home or club players. Matched play is great for tournaments and I'm glad we have it but we need a less restrictive system than matched play outside of tournament events. Open play and narrative isn't quite supporting that enough in my humble and insignificant opinion. Reduce battle line by one per army size and make most non monster/hero/war machine units battleline. Simples ? Wow I ranted sorry. Remember Criticism is a good thing it's not a moan it's how we all improve so no "don't complain" bullies please Ta! AoS is a good game we all just want to make it better ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABBIT Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 As for shadow warriors I guess I just want to find a way to justify their points and aside from being multi role I can't. I have to reserve judgement until I play them as I've been wrong in the past and what's on paper doesn't always reflect the real world application. You won't see what they can do until you try them. I agree getting 30 onto the often small AoS terrain features is a problem for all massive regiments. Sylvaneth wild woods are ok but dangerous place if your not a sylvaneth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 I think with Shadow warriors they are best set up last. This way you can use the 12" move to get them into shooting range of a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furiyen Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 The extensive discussion here has made me go Order Draconis. Go Dragons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 22 minutes ago, Furiyen said: The extensive discussion here has made me go Order Draconis. Go Dragons! All High Aelves matter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furiyen Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Just now, chord said: High Aelves Lives matter! FTFY. Sorry, couldn't resist. On a more serious note, I also believe that Shadow Warriors are paying over the odds for their multi-role purpose and their free scout move. Secondly, why wasn't their a decent Allegiance ability and the key words sorted out for the different High Aelven factions?! Surely the GHB was the time to sort it out? i really don't mind the pidgeon holing of battle line units to specific sub factions of High Aelves, but with Alliance units a proper Allegiance ability is sorely missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 20 hours ago, Furiyen said: FTFY. Sorry, couldn't resist. On a more serious note, I also believe that Shadow Warriors are paying over the odds for their multi-role purpose and their free scout move. Secondly, why wasn't their a decent Allegiance ability and the key words sorted out for the different High Aelven factions?! Surely the GHB was the time to sort it out? i really don't mind the pidgeon holing of battle line units to specific sub factions of High Aelves, but with Alliance units a proper Allegiance ability is sorely missed. AFAIK they said armies not getting Allegiance goodies are good candidates for their own battletomes in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNotebookGM Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 So I was going to start with Bonesplitterz, but then my friend went and bought two Spire of Dawns because he wanted the Skaven pieces so now I'm just going to give him the other half of the cash and play the Swifthawks and move to Orruks once I have a decent Aelf army. So to start I'll have 2 High Warden Archmage 20 Swordmasters 20 Spire Guard 10 Reavers With the battalion that makes for 1520 points (not including the other Archmage for now until I get my allies situation sorted). My thoughts are that a unit of 3 Kurnoth Hunters (220) will add some much needed oomph to the list. They also fit my fluff pretty well and are gorgeous minis. Another 10 Swordmasters (for a block of 30) and the extra Archmage get me very close to 2k in 3 drops. I'll also end up buying 3 Skycutters and a Skywarden because I love the models, but that comes later. Unless I've missed the core concept somewhere and I'm spouting nonsense. Edit to realize I'll need another box or to split my Reavers into two units for a third battleline. Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SentinelGuy Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Split the Reavers. I find 10 to be quite difficult to use on the table due to the rather large footprint of 10 cavalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNotebookGM Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 15 hours ago, SentinelGuy said: Split the Reavers. I find 10 to be quite difficult to use on the table due to the rather large footprint of 10 cavalry. Super valid. The boxes come Monday. Wouldn't be surprised if I order the other 10 Swordmasters off Ebay shortly after. I feel like once 30 of them are sitting on an objective they aren't going anywhere for a bit. Let the hordes of Bloodletters part like the high winds on my pointy helmets. Expect some fluff before then as I get increasingly fidgety. I know next to nothing about the "World of Warhammer" and doing it myself is half the fun. My Skaven adversary and I have already decided that the Spire guards the path to a massive swath of farmland perfect for growing grapes which my aelfs tend to, using the literal fruits of their labor to make wines known the world over for their delicacy and quality. The Vinewarden, from on high atop his mighty griffon, oversees the vineyards while the High Onomancer directs his acolytes, blending the juices with care and aging them meticulously. The rest of the units, the Yardriders, Knights of the Northen Road, and Vinespire Guard work to keep the Vineyards clear; caravans safe; and safeguard the Vinespire from those who would rather steal than produce for themselves. According to the Skaven General "We'd always had access to the grapes, same as everyone else; then these aelfs constructed the Vinespire and started exploiting the literal fruits of our shared homeland for profit. They jack up the prices so normal Skaven can't even taste the sweet bounty of their lands. Overthrowing the oppressive Aelfs and seizing the means of grape production is the only answer in a world where the government refuses to protect downtrodden Skaven citizens from the abuses of a corporate seizure of public lands." Never play war games with a political scientist. The heroes and command model of each unit will be named characters with personalities and backstories. Most of their names are just wine grapes made to sound more aelf-y. No, you're a nerd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Is anyone using the swifthawk chariot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WABBIT Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 15 hours ago, chord said: Is anyone using the swifthawk chariot? i love the model buts its stats are so underwhelming i would only use it for a fluff parade game not a proper game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 40 minutes ago, WABBIT said: i love the model buts its stats are so underwhelming i would only use it for a fluff parade game not a proper game. Agreed even at 80 points I have a hard time adding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegfried VII Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Today I had a game with the following list versus the new Seraphon: x1 Guardians of the Dawnspire Battalion Warscroll x1 High Warden x1 Archmage x10 Spireguard x15 Reavers x30 Sword Masters x10 Shadow Warriors x1 Sky Warden x1 Sky Warden Total Army Cost: 1980pts It was a great epic battle and I must say I enjoyed it very much!! I really hope the battalion is legal, because otherwise Swifthawk Agents will suffer for it... Another thing I noticed is that the new points have done no justice to the faction. No points reduction at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 do you have a battle report? Pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegfried VII Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 21 hours ago, chord said: do you have a battle report? Pics? Ask and thou shalt receive... My opponent was none other than a fellow resident of this forum and good friend of mine Seraphage. His list was: x1 Slann Starmaster x1 Starpriest x1 Oldblood on Carnosaur x1 Scar Veteran on Cold One x1 Sunblood x40 Saurus Warriors x10 Saurus Warriors x10 Saurus Warriors x10 Skinks x10 Skinks x1 Bastiladon x1 Blood Claw Battalion Warscroll The scenario was "Battle for the Pass". TURN 1 I finished deployment first thanks to the battalion and opted to take the first turn in order to start gathering points. I used my free move with the Shadow Warriors and combined with their normal movement went inside a terrain piece and got them in cover. I then moved with the extra move from the battalion the unit of 15 Reavers and then proceeded to get in range. On the other flank I run the Sword Masters (rolled a 6) and got them into position for the second objective. The other units went a a bit forward. I then shot off the table a unit of 10 Saurus Warriors and a unit of 10 Skinks. I Scored 5 vps. My opponent then teleported a unit of 40 Saurus Warriors in front of the Reavers and cast some spells with his Slann and Starpriest. He moved another unit of 10 Saurus Warriors to guard his central objective moved up some skinks to block me and shot a couple of Sword Masters with his Bastiladon. He failed his charge with the 40 Saurus and I felt relieved. He scored 1 vp. TURN 2 He won the roll and took the turn. He teleported his slann from his right to his left moved with his 40 Saurus Warriors and his Scar Veteran on Cold One. After a few repositioning of his other units he scored a few more wounds on the Sword Masters and proceeded to charge the 40 Saurus in my Reavers (it was a grave mistake on my part to let them undefended) and my Shadow Warriors at the same time. His Scar Veteran failed the charge. In the combat he killed only 5 of the Reivers but a bad roll on the battleshock (even with re-rolls) on my part saw another 4 of them gone, crippling the unit. I managed though with the help of the Shadow Warriors to whittle down some of them. He scored 3 vps. In my turn I went onwards with my Sword Masters with the battalion ability and then some more in the movement phase. My High Warden went forwards too. I then charged with my Sword Masters his backlines engaging with a unit of 10 Saurus Wariiors, the Starpriest and a Sunblood which were camping on top of my opponent's objective. The High Warden charged the 40 Saurus Guard to assist my units and try to bring down the numbers of the Saurus in order to make them less effective and my 2 Sky Wardens charged the last unit of 10 skinks. My Sword Masters managed to kill the Sunblood (though we forgot a bunch of abilities that may have seen him survive) and all 10 of the Saurus Warrios and my High Warden using his Quicksilver Potion managed to bring the Saurus Guard below 30 models thus denying them their second attacks. The Saurus wiped out the Reivers and killed a few Shadow Warriors in response and my Sky Wardens fluffed their attacks and 3 skinks remained I scored 7 vps. At this point we are 12 – 4 in favor of me. TURN 3 He won the roll again and got several spells off with his Slann and Starpriest. He tried to teleport the big Saurus unit but rolled a 1 and they stayed put. He moved his Oldblood on Carnosaur and the Slann in position to charge my Sword Masters, the Scar Veteran on Cold One to charge my High Warden and the Bastiladon to charge one of my Sky Wardens. He killed a few more Sword Masters with the Bastiladon and succeeded in all his charges. His Oldblood on Carnosaur killed a few Sword Masters but not as much as he could. I then chose to activate my High Warden and used his preadatory leap to disengage from his Scar Vetaran (leaving him hanging dry) and positioned my self nicely with the big unit of Saurus Warriors managing a few more wounds on them. He then activated his Slann who had 8 attacks from the command ability of the Oldblood (my opponent used the Blood Claw Battalion) and scored more kills than the Oldblood (a very feisty Slann if I dare say so myself :)). I then activated my Sky Warden to wipe the last few skinks but only killed 2 of them. The Saurus Warriors them proceeded to wipe out the Shadow Warriors. My Sword Masters killed the Starpriest and scored a couple of wounds on the Slann. His Bastiladon fluffed it's attacks and his solo skink retreated instead of fighting granting him the objective. He scored 4 vps. In my turn I moved my second Sky Warden to intercept his Bastiladon and my Archmage to tackle the skink survivor. I also moved my Spireguard to get a few shots on his Saurus Warriors killing one or two more. In the combat phase my Archmage failed to kill the skink and was saved by luck as I was stupid enough to put him within 2 inches of the Bastiladon after his charge but fortunately for me the Bastiladon was sleepy and failed to score even a hit. My Sword Masters failed to kill the Slann and got smashed by both the Oldblood and the Slann resulting in only few of them remaining after battleshock. My High continued to kill Saurus Warriors receiving only 1 wound from their attacks. The Sky Wardens managed to do 5(!) wounds on the Bastiladon which made me happy and in the end I scored 7 vps. TURN 4 I won the roll and apart from a couple of pot shots in the Saurus Warriors we went almost directly to the combat phase. My Archmage failed again to kill his skink but with the pile in got out of harm's way from the Bastiladon and the skink retreated yet again to threaten my objective. High Warden managed to bring the Saurus Warriors to 12 models and my Swordmasters were reduced to 2 after another ferocious round of Slann star-slaps. I did another wound on the Bastiladon and it caused 3 wounds on one of my Sky Wardens. I scored another 7vps. My opponent's turn an arcane bolt from the Slann saw the last 2 of the Sword Masters die freeing the Slann and the objective and he teleported his Saurus Warriors to my backline objective were I had my 10 Spireguard managing to just fit all his 12 models within 6 inches (bad play on my behalf to let it happen with my placement of the unit) securing this objective too. Slann remained on the objective were the Swordmasters were and the Scar Veteran went to protect the left objective from the High Warden charging him for the kill. The Oldblood on Carnosaur charged the Archmage for a sure kill. In the combat phase the Scar Veteran managed to bring the High Warden to 3 wounds remaining and the High Warden retaliated scoring 3 wounds or something. In the right objective it was a very interesting situation. I had 3 models within 6 inches of the objective and it was in my control. My two Skywardens and my Archmage. Seraphon had after the charges the Oldblood on Carnosaur, the lone skink and the Bastiladon. So he needed to kill one model and his to survive. The Skink was safe as was the Oldblood who killed the Archmage with ease. Alas I managed with one of my Skywardens to finish of the Bastiladon and denied him his vps from this objective. He scored 7vps in the end of the turn. That brought us to a 26 – 15 on the vps which meant that even if he got priority and gotten all 9 vps from the objectives he would reach 24 vps and thus it was impossible for him to win at this point. We called it a game then. It was a really epic battle imo with lots of triumph, agony and fun!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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